Christians -- unconditional grace?

[sojourner]

I didn't say it was an error of translation. I suggested it is a difference of interpretation. There are also too many verses pointing to the absoluteness of God's love and saving grace for humanity. I choose to interpret the message, erring on the side of inclusive love for all, not on the side of arbitrary gatekeeping.

 

[Baerly]

The Biblical position is that you become a child of God by belief in His Son. John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name..."

Hi,how are you?

Have you ever noticed in (John 1:12) that it only says that they have the power to become the sons of God...

I just thought I would point that out. The verse does not say they are Christains by belief alone,But through believing the words (Acts 11:14) and acting upon the directions given by God (Acts 10:34,35) (Heb.5:8,9).

Those who heard the first gospel sermon on Pentecost were told to save themselves from this untowards generation (Acts 2:40). This is done by being obedient to the N.T. Will of the Lord.

 

[writer]

122 Have you ever noticed in (John 1:12) that it only says that they have the power to become the sons of God
To the contrary 1:12-13 say alot more, and make clear: to "receive Him" = to be "given authority to become children of God" = "begotten...of God"

The verse does not say they are Christains by belief alone,But through believing the words (Acts 11:14) and acting upon the directions given by God (Acts 10:34,35) (Heb.5:8,9).
?
Jesus Christ Himself (Jn 1:1, 14) is "the Word." And the tabernacle. Into whom folks can and must believe (Jn 14:1-2; 2:21; 1:14).
Additionally, Jn 1:12-13 themselves are "words" to me and others.
Lastly one's born again both by faith (Jn 3:15), and also in baptism following (3:5)

Those who heard the first gospel sermon on Pentecost were told to save themselves from this untowards generation (Acts 2:40).
To the contrary: 2:40 per the Greek reads: "Be saved from this crooked generation." Which's an active-passive (be-saved). Involving man receiving God

This is done by being obedient to the N.T. Will of the Lord.
The NT will of the Lord's firstly to believe "into His Son" (Jn 6:29; 1:12-13; Rm 1:5; etc). Then to be baptized into Him, the triune God (Mk 16:16; Mt 28:19; Ac 2:38; etc). Which was the start (Heb 6:1-2; etc).
Thanx

 

[Baerly]

On the OSAS topic,

what about Simon in (Acts 8:20)? He was told he would PERISH if he did not repent and pray to God for forgiveness. This proves one can be in a saved state,and then be lost according to what the individual has done. Although he can be reconciled to God again if he follows the second law of pardon told to him by Peter in (Acts 8:22).This also reminds me of (2Peter 2:20 -22).

It also seems that those who turn from the commandments of the Lord (N.T.LAW) are without grace and lost according to (2Peter 2:21).They were once saved in the earlier verses.

(Gal.5:4) says ye are fallen from grace.

(1Cor.9:27) says even the apostle Paul could be a castaway.

(Luke 8:5-15) teaches us that some started the christian life but did not finish it for various reasons.

(John 15:6) If a Christian does not abide in Christ he is cast into the fire and burned.

(Rev.2:5) is warning Christians about taking their candlestick from them. The candlestick represents spiritual life and the presence Christ our saviour.

(1Cor.3:10-15) teaches us some will not pass the tests (trials) that will come their way.

These are the teachings (doctrine) of our Lord. We would do good to spread this word of God to all who would listen. It is not those who preach this doctrine who keeps people out of the church or heaven,That responsibility goes to those who reject the word of God according to (2Thess.2:10-12). in love Baerly

 

[sojourner]

Here's just one passage that causes me to reconsider the mercy of God as greater than my sin: "What do you think? If a shepherd has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of your Father in heaven that one of these little ones should be lost." (Matt. 18:12ff)

We stand in a state of reconciliation to God because of the Christ-event. Can we choose to not live into that identity, acting in a way that is contrary to God's will? Of course we can. But this passage tells us that we are identified as God's sheep and God will always look for us until God finds us. And in the end, God's will get God's way, because this is God's universe.

We need to remember that eternity is on God's side -- not the side of destruction.

 

[writer]

125
Yes. How wonderful our Savior iz

124 On the OSAS topic, what about Simon in (Acts 8:20)? He was told he would PERISH if he did not repent and pray to God for forgiveness. This proves one can be in a saved state,and then be lost according to what the individual has done.
To the contrary, dear Baerly: once saved, always saved. In regard to eternal destiny. As the apostles' writings teach.
Simon was born again. Praise his Savior. Just like the words "save, saved," and "salvation" in the NT do not always nor only mean in regard to eternal destiny; but rather apply however they apply based on their specific context; so too with the word "perish" or "perdition." As "saved" does not always refer to eternal salvation. So neither does "perish" always refer to eternal perdition

Although he can be reconciled to God again if he follows the second law of pardon told to him by Peter in (Acts 8:22).This also reminds me of (2Peter 2:20 -22).
There's no such phrase "second law of pardon" in the Bible. Thank the Lord. It sounds so legalistic. Christ, God, has a family. In love. Of course also in righteousness. But primarily in life. His children are BORN of Him. This is much more than merely a legal relationship or matter. Certainly Christians like me and Simon have a lot to confess and repent of and be forgiven for after receiving the Lord. In fact that defines my Christian life. But unlike CoC and Catholicism teach, that doesn't, and can't, alter a birth. The 2nd birth. So if by "second law of pardon" u simply mean confessing to our High Priest and asking for forgiveness (1 Jn 1:7-9)---then ok.

It also seems that those who turn from the commandments of the Lord (N.T.LAW) are without grace and lost according to (2Peter 2:21).They were once saved in the earlier verses.
It's possible, relationally, to fall from grace, into works, or law, or sin, or lust, or into religion; as the apostles teach, and Christians experience constantly. And that experientially IS "lost," "not saved," at those times, in those moments.
But not lost eternally. Not unsaved as in eternally unsaved.
Indeed Peter never employs the word "lost" in 2 P 2:20-22.
Peter's speaking of in this life for such serious heretical ones in this part

(1Cor.9:27) says even the apostle Paul could be a castaway.
As Paul the apostle writes in 1 Cor 9:24, he writes here concerning reward (and punishment). Not eternal destiny

(Luke 8:5-15) teaches us that some started the christian life but did not finish it for various reasons.
Not finish it yet. Baerly. Yet. Or: in this age. Lk 8:6-8, 13-14.
Eternity isn't right after this age, B.
Lk 8:5, 12 sounds like those exact ones didn't start, never believed.

(John 15:6) If a Christian does not abide in Christ he is cast into the fire and burned.
Thas correct. Such a Christian, then,'s saved "through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).
This is again the matter of reward and punishment. Not eternal perdition

(Rev.2:5) is warning Christians about taking their candlestick from them. The candlestick represents spiritual life and the presence Christ our saviour.
The lampstands are the churches. Such Christians can lose their light (like hiding it under a barrel). Lose their enjoyment and stand as a local church. This serious matter's also nothing to do with eternal damnation nor destiny.
Thanks Baerly

 

[sojourner]

What does this have to do with the topic of unconditional grace?

 

[lunamoth]

I'm wondering why Christians are so eager to take every line in the Bible and create new laws to bludgeon their fellows with. Hmmm...are we not free from the law in Christ?

luna

 

[sojourner]

Laws were created to define righteousness in a sea of sin. Now that sin has been forced into remission in humanity, reconciling humanity to God, the Law can, by definition, no longer be used as the same "yardstick" of righteousness -- only as a tool for human judgmentalism and guilt.

 

[Quiddity]

I think we're confusing the individual with the race of humanity here. It's not about me and you. It's about us together. My position is that the Christ-event placed all humanity in reconciliation to God. We, as a race, no longer have to worry about whether we are acceptable to God or not. We know we are. It is up to each individual to work out what that means for him or her, growing into that identity as being part of a group that has been reconciled to God.

I think those individuals that do not grow into that identity become covered with dirt. Even those of us that do grow still get dirty from time to time. But we are still worthwhile in God's eyes. God's grace is for all of us, and God's not going to be happy until we've all crossed the "finish line" together.

Humanity still has a long way to go before we, as a group, have fully lived into that identity. God's got eternity on God's side to wait for us at the door, until we make the turn in the road. Then, God will run to meet us, bring us in, put the finest robes on us, and give us a feast.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the Christ-event reconciled all humanity to God, but you must work it out individually and morph into an identity. If you fail to do this in this life, you will get infinite chances to do so in the other life. Is that correct?

If so, this is basically apokatastasis, heavily influenced by Gnosticism. Even some early church fathers were influenced by it (Origen, St. Gregory of Nyssa). The doctrine was condemned at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 543. In no unclear words they said,
If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (apokatastasis) will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/const2.html

The reality is that the historical Christian Church held that people will in fact deny God. To say that God’s Love is irresistible is along the same lines that we were all created to choose Him without much say in the matter; voiding out free will. How can someone have a choice with something so irresistible? Something to ponder about.

Peace be with you,
~Victor

 

[sojourner]

The free will we now enjoy is clouded by selfish, sinful desire and erroneous perspective. That's the power of sin over us. I believe that the natural state of the soul of humanity is to return love for love. When we are faced with the ultimate Truth of God's unbounded love for us, unclouded by our own self-centeredness, the soul will naturally respond to that love and turn toward it.

I understand that this is not the traditional position of the Church. I understand that some will brand me a heretic for holding this viewpoint. So be it. I still err on the side of love, mercy, acceptance, forbearance and grace.

 

[Quiddity]

The free will we now enjoy is clouded by selfish, sinful desire and erroneous perspective. That's the power of sin over us. I believe that the natural state of the soul of humanity is to return love for love. When we are faced with the ultimate Truth of God's unbounded love for us, unclouded by our own self-centeredness, the soul will naturally respond to that love and turn toward it.

The natural state of humanity denied and disobeyed God once before (The fall). If you think that's all you need, then the fall clearly shows otherwise.

I don't know what else to tell you but that you are correct in saying that you are erring in the side of Love, but so was most other heresies. It's really nothing new.

 

[lunamoth]

The natural state of humanity denied and disobeyed God once before (The fall). If you think that's all you need, then the fall clearly shows otherwise.

I don't know what else to tell you but that you are correct in saying that you are erring in the side of Love, but so was most other heresies. It's really nothing new.

Victor, were we not created good?

From The Good Book, by Peter Gomes:

Well, there is good news, and that is why they call it the gospel. The news is not that we are worse than we think, it is that we are better than we think, nad better than we deserve to be. Why? Because at the very bottom of the whole enterprise is the indiputable fact that we are created, made, formed, invented, patented in the imge of goodness itself. We are cast from a perfect die and the imprint is on us, and it cannot be evaded or avoided. God made us, male and female, in the image of goodness, and goodness itself is who and what we are, and God pronounced it good, and hence it is good, because, as the kid in the ghetto said, "God don't make no junk." What God makes is good." (p. 199)

It's impossible to err on the side of love.

luna

 

[writer]

89 Jesus defined it in (Mt.25:31-46). Those sheep are the ones going to be with him in heaven.
To the contrary: Mt 25:31-46 is on and for earth (31). Not heaven. And it's only of the nations alive at His 2nd coming. Not for Christians at all. Except they were those nations' test (35-40, 42-45)

Jesus went to prepare a place in (John 14).
Jesus Is the place (14:2, 23; 2:16, 21). The Body of Christ

(Rev.21:21) describes this place as a place which the street is made of Gold.
God Himself is the gold life (cf 1 Cor 3:12; 2 P 3:11). Incorruptible

The earth will be BURNED UP as we learn in (2Peter 3:10). in love Baerly
Followed by His new earth (in a new heavens) in which righteousness dwells (3:13)

 

[Quiddity]

Victor, were we not created good?

From The Good Book, by Peter Gomes:



It's impossible to err on the side of love.

luna

I agree. My point was that most men and women who have erred have understood themselves to have erred in the side of Love.

And yes, we were created good.

 

[blueman]

I've heartily debated several people here about the unconditional and universal nature of God's grace and salvation. Sometimes those debates have gotten heated. That is regrettable.

Since so many appear to be interested, I'm starting a thread specifically to debate the unconditional and universal nature of God's grace. I believe that God is love, that love is unconditional, and that God has created each one of us to live in relationship with God. I believe that God's love is greater than our will, and when we are faced with God's love, we will not be able to resist it.

So much of Christian energy and activity is spent in deciding who's in and who's out -- and then in keeping out those who "don't belong." I believe God is inclusive -- even to the point of having saved those whom we deem to be evil -- we have to remember that even they are precious children of God.

This is not at all a popular stance, and many have branded me a heretic (and worse) for holding and propagating such views. I can only hope that, one day, they can forgive me for these views.

Let's try to keep the debate respectful and loving. have fun!

Sojourner, although I do not agree with you regarding this issue, I respect your belief. I do not believe that God's grace is unconditional, regardless of what we do and in absence of a relationship through Jesus Christ, there is no other path to salvation (John 14:6). Christianity is exclusive by the nature of Christ, who adamantly claimed that only salvation comes through Him and nonone else. We certainly do not gain salvation through our works (Ephesians 2:9). What is wrong is when Chrisitians take this and wear it as a badge of honor, without bearing any fruit nor witnessing to others regarding the good news of God's love and grace through Jesus Christ.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner, although I do not agree with you regarding this issue, I respect your belief. I do not believe that God's grace is unconditional, regardless of what we do and in absence of a relationship through Jesus Christ, there is no other path to salvation (John 14:6). Christianity is exclusive by the nature of Christ, who adamantly claimed that only salvation comes through Him and nonone else. We certainly do not gain salvation through our works (Ephesians 2:9). What is wrong is when Chrisitians take this and wear it as a badge of honor, without bearing any fruit nor witnessing to others regarding the good news of God's love and grace through Jesus Christ.

The nature of Christ is to be exclusive???

I think that most people who begin to wrestle wih the idea of unconditional grace are forgetting that grace is about a relationship -- a relationship of love and acceptance. A relationship is not one-sided. God approaches us -- initiates the contact. We, in turn, approach God. By virtue of God initiating the contact, God's love for us and acceptance of us is revealed. In other words, God's deeds indicate God's will for us.

In turn, our deeds indicate that we have responded to the will of God -- our actions of approaching God and submitting ourselves to God reveal where our hearts are. That's why James said that faith without works is a dead faith. A dog without breathing is a dead dog. Lack of breath is a pretty good indicator that the dog is dead. Lack of works is a pretty good indicator that the heart is not right.

When God turns toward us and we, reciprocating, turn toward God, a relationship is built. As works follow, they bolster and encourage the relationship -- but they do not make the relationship.

I feel that, whoever does good works, cares for others, loves their neighbors, shows mercy and compassion, are turning toward God, whether they conceptualize it in that way, or not. There are an awful lot of Christians who consistently do bad things. There are an awful lot of Buddhists who consistently do good things. Whose heart is shown to be right with God?

Remember, Jesus never said, "believe these things about me." Jesus said, "follow me -- do what I do." I don't believe one has to profess faith in order to stand in reconciliation with God.

 

[Baerly]

I'm wondering why Christians are so eager to take every line in the Bible and create new laws to bludgeon their fellows with. Hmmm...are we not free from the law in Christ?

luna

hi, It is my understanding that we are FREE from SIN according to (Rom.6:18) by obeying that form of doctrine (Rom.6:17) which is spoke of in (vss)3-6 of that same chapter.

The bible does not teach we are free from law. If there is no law there is no sin.That would mean everyone would go to heaven. (1John 3:4) says sin is transgression of the law,this means if there is sin,there must be a law that was broken.

(Mt.7:14) teaches only a few will make it to heaven.They will make it by doing the will of God (Mt.7:21).

 

[Katzpur]

(Mt.7:14) teaches only a few will make it to heaven.

Which version of the Bible do you use, Baerly? The KJV says that few will find the way which leads to life. I interpret that quite differently than you do.

Suppose you are charged with a brutal murder. For the sake of argument, let's assume you're innocent. The jury, however, convicts you. In your particular case, the judge has the choice of sentencing you to either life in prison to to give you the death penalty. He decides (for whatever reason) to not condemn you to death after all, but to prison with no chance of parole. As far as the victim's family is concerned, your punishment is nothing! You, on the other hand, knowing that you are innocent, see life in prison as a horrible punishment. You have been "saved" in a sense, because you will not be put to death, but in another sense, you have been "damned."

I think that the concept that few will "find life" is a little more complicated than the idea that few will "make it to heaven."

 

[Baerly]

125

(John 15:6) If a Christian does not abide in Christ he is cast into the fire and burned.
Thas correct. Such a Christian, then,'s saved "through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).
This is again the matter of reward and punishment. Not eternal perdition


Baerly writes:- Here is a good lesson on (1Cor.3:15).

Every Man's Work Shall Be Made Manifest" / thepreachersfiles.com
January 2, 2006 by Mike Riley - Mike Riley's Blog
A querist asks, "Could someone please explain to me what I Corinthians 3:10-15 means, especially vss. 14,15?"
In 1 Corinthians 3:1-15, Paul is discussing the work of the Lord at Corinth which he and Apollos shared (1 Corinthians 3:4-5). Paul goes on to say in 1 Corinthians 3:5 - "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos; but ministers by whom ye believed...." These men were the instruments by which the saving gospel had been preached to those at Corinth (1 Corinthians 1:2).
1 Corinthians 3:10 - ".... I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon" - The church is spoken of as a spiritual building, having a "foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Ephesians 2:20). The saints (called "stones"; i.e. "gold, silver, precious stones" - 1 Corinthians 3:12), being a part of that building (Ephesians 2:19,21,22; 1 Peter 2:5). Paul (one of the apostles - 1 Corinthians 15:8-9) refers to himself as "a wise masterbuilder" who had "laid the foundation" which was Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11;; cf. Matthew 16:16-18). Paul exhorts the Corinthian brethren to heed how they build upon that foundation (by not allowing the teaching of false doctrine).
1 Corinthians 3:11 - "For no other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" - Devout attention must be given to sound doctrine (1 Timothy 6:3; 2 Timothy 1:13; Titus 1:9). Paul had laid the foundation of sound doctrine when he preached in Corinth that Jesus was the Christ (Acts 18:1-5).
1 Corinthians 3:12 - "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble" - These items represent those who are faithful to the Lord's church and those who are not faithful (cf. 2 Timothy 2:20-21).
1 Corinthians 3:13 - "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is" - The "work" that Paul talks about are those individuals in Corinth to whom he taught the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:1; cf. 1 Corinthians 4:15). Some of those individuals who were converted by the teaching of that sound doctrine (the gospel) would remain faithful (i.e., "gold, silver, precious stones"), while others would not remain faithful (i.e., "wood, hay, stubble" - 1 Corinthians 3:12). The refining "fire" (testing agent) of trials, persecutions and tribulations would reveal their faithfulness or unfaithfulness (1 Corinthians 3:13; cf. Job 23:10; Proverbs 17:3; 1 Peter 1:6-7).
1 Corinthians 3:14 - "If any man's work abide" - The teacher of those who remain faithful, "shall receive a reward." The reward being the knowledge of knowing that he was instrumental in their admittance into that "everlasting kingdom" (2 Peter 1:11; cf. 1 Thessalonians 2:19).
1 Corinthians 3:15 - "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire" - The teacher of unfaithful individuals will suffer personal loss but the teacher's personal salvation will not be jeopardized. So far as the apostate is concerned, the teacher's labor will have been in vain. Paul provides a preview of such anxiety when he bluntly tells the Galatian saints, "I fear for you, that I may have labored over you in vain" (Gal. 4:11 - NASV). Jesus felt some personal sense of "loss" when Judas defected and ended up in perdition (John 17:12; cf. Luke 6:16; John 6:70).
Two important truths clearly stand out from a consideration of this section of Scripture:
1) One's converts through the teaching of God's word may defect from the faith and be lost (1 Corinthians 3:15a).
2) In the event that such occurs, though the teacher may experience the loss of his apostate disciple, yet he himself will not be held responsible for the defection. He will be saved if he personally passes the "fire" test (1 Corinthians 3:15b).