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Christians: The Nicene Creed?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis, I am sure you are an intelligent person. I may sometimes question what a person believes but I never question their right to believe what they want. I am sure many here would use some colorful words to describe what I believe. I believe God is made up of two persons, not three. There is a father and a son. Together they are God just like a human father and son together are a family. The Bible says God is a spirit and God is holy. So this "family" called God is a holy spirit. There is no third person. Thanks for asking. Now I will get some of those colorful words when people read this.
The one thing I've learned and accepted over the years as I am not one to judge another's religious beliefs nor those of atheists and agnostics. Thus, you may be correct with the above.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
The universal Church led by the successors of the apostles.

From Pope Clement in about 80 AD:

“Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry” (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).
Exactly! And from the 12 (or 13 if we include Paul) - it continued on and on to many rooms in the one house called The Church. :)
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It means the church which doesn't contradict catholic teachings where the "church" is not a physical building but rather a flock of Jesus:
John 10:27

I can agree with this statement! I would, however, go a and to the statement of the "catholic teachings" and say "The Catholic Teaching in as much as the teaching doesn't violate scripture".
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
and say "The Catholic Teaching in as much as the teaching doesn't violate scripture".
I think as long as you consider catholic teachings to be guided by the holly spirit there is no reason reason to believe otherwise.

We know for sure, there is evidence, that teachings today (or doctrines) are contradictory to each other, therefore it is logically impossible that all of them be correct teachings.
The bible says holly spirit will guide the church, therefore it is biblical to say that holly spirit cannot go wrong and guide the church into a wrong direction.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I think as long as you consider catholic teachings to be guided by the holly spirit there is no reason reason to believe otherwise.

We know for sure, there is evidence, that teachings today (or doctrines) are contradictory to each other, therefore it is logically impossible that all of them be correct teachings.
The bible says holly spirit will guide the church, therefore it is biblical to say that holly spirit cannot go wrong and guide the church into a wrong direction.

Of course, that is the question. Certainly the Holy Spirit will guide it correctly, but it is man that messes it up. For an example:

Revelation 2:2
“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

3 John 1: 9 I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. 10 So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.

1 John 4:1
Test the Spirits
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Certainly, when the Catholic taught on paying indulgences, it was unscriptural and not from the Holy Spirit. However, Martin Luther was used by the Holy Spirit to correct many false doctrines created by false apostles IMU
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Certainly, when the Catholic taught on paying indulgences, it was unscriptural and not from the Holy Spirit. However, Martin Luther was used by the Holy Spirit to correct many false doctrines created by false apostles IMU

But I see this problem differently Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on [your] right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

What Martin Luther did was basically resisting the evil.
In the mean time that evil was gone and is no longer present.

Resisting the evil can not be the work of the holly spirit.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But I see this problem differently Matthew 5:39


What Martin Luther did was basically resisting the evil.
In the mean time that evil was gone and is no longer present.

Resisting the evil can not be the work of the holly spirit.
Can't disagree with that!
 

KW

Well-Known Member
I'm not exactly sure what your question is.

If I understand correctly, I would say it this way...

There is One Church with many rooms... there is the Catholic room, Church of God room, Nazarene room et al. :)

That doesn’t seem to fit with an authoritative church that is led in all truth. Protestants teach multiple contradictory doctrines.

The instruction to listen to the church doesn’t make sense if there is more than one church teaching different truths.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That doesn’t seem to fit with an authoritative church that is led in all truth. Protestants teach multiple contradictory doctrines.

The instruction to listen to the church doesn’t make sense if there is more than one church teaching different truths.
And yet history has shown us differently as far as the "authoritative church" is concerned although you are right as far as multiple doctrines in the Protestant rooms.

They have changed from the dark ages and have become more mainstream as the truth of scripture became available for the masses.

Martin Luther did have some valid points,
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Can't disagree with that!
OK thanks, btw. I'm not saying the church is or was evil.

Recall that Judas, apostle chosen by Jesus was a thief and recall that Jesus was tempted by the devil.
Thus I biblically see no reason why would catholic church be immune to evil?

Just because Jesus was tempted by the devil that doesn't make his teaching false, and just because Judas killed him self doesn't make other 11 apostles wrong.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
OK thanks, btw. I'm not saying the church is or was evil.

Recall that Judas, apostle chosen by Jesus was a thief and recall that Jesus was tempted by the devil.
Thus I biblically see no reason why would catholic church be immune to evil?

Just because Jesus was tempted by the devil that doesn't make his teaching false, and just because Judas killed him self doesn't make other 11 apostles wrong.
Again... maybe we are saying the same thing in different ways?

Any church is not immune to evil but what scripture says remains true. Thus, when the Catholic Church veered off course and presented a different Gospel the Holy Spirit made His correction to challenge their position. Someone labelled it the "Protestant Church" but however they call it, it was the Holy Spirit bringing truth back into full view.

Like the TaNaKh said, a true Jew (or Christian) is the one who is circumsized from the heart no matter what label they put over themselves. Paul made the same reference.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Resisting the evil can not be the work of the holly spirit.


I'm sorry... I mis-read this.

Resisting evil, IMV, is the work of the Holy Spirit.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, (evil) and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:8-9 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion,walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

So it would depend on the application.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
However, Martin Luther was used by the Holy Spirit to correct many false doctrines created by false apostles IMU
Does that include Luther's blatant anti-Semitism? How about his violation of the vows he took? Etc.? :p
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Someone labelled it the "Protestant Church" but however they call it, it was the Holy Spirit bringing truth back into full view.
Does that include his involvement in the wars of religion with his happiness when his forces killed Zwingli? How about the violent taking over of churches and monasteries that also included the raping of nuns?:p

He also wanted four books from the NT removed: Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because they didn't fit in with his teachings.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church that very much sanitized Luther's record, and it wasn't until I studied his life when I was in my early 30's whereas I learned just how atrocious so many of his teachings and actions were, and it wasn't from a Catholic source, btw. For just one example, the infamous Nuremberg Laws that the NAZI's implemented were justified on the basis of Luther's teachings.

BTW, that church I grew up in did learn a lesson and abandoned its fundamentalist bent and is now a part of the ELCA synod.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Does that include Luther's blatant anti-Semitism? How about his violation of the vows he took? Etc.? :p
I was wondering when someone was going to mention that :D I'm surprised it took this long.

But... no... the Holy Spirit needed to jerk his chain on that :) it isn't scriptural.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Does that include his involvement in the wars of religion with his happiness when his forces killed Zwingli? How about the violent taking over of churches and monasteries that also included the raping of nuns?:p

He also wanted four books from the NT removed: Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because they didn't fit in with his teachings.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church that very much sanitized Luther's record, and it wasn't until I studied his life when I was in my early 30's whereas I learned just how atrocious so many of his teachings and actions were, and it wasn't from a Catholic source, btw. For just one example, the infamous Nuremberg Laws that the NAZI's implemented were justified on the basis of Luther's teachings.

BTW, that church I grew up in did learn a lesson and abandoned its fundamentalist bent and is now a part of the ELCA synod.
I realize that Luther had a lot of bad things and bad theology (Ie anti-Semite). But the way I figure it, if God can use a donkey and even Balaam to do right things even if he isn't doing the right thing with God, God even used Solomon though he violates so many God-given laws.

So, in other words, God can use anyone. Regardless of his personal issues and lifestyle, there are many points in the 95 point thesis that were still from God. IMV.

His viewpoints on the 4 books may have been wrong but still there were points that were right when he protested.

Like one person said, "Be like the cow, eat the hay and leave the stubble". :D
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I realize that Luther had a lot of bad things and bad theology (Ie anti-Semite). But the way I figure it, if God can use a donkey and even Balaam to do right things even if he isn't doing the right thing with God, God even used Solomon though he violates so many God-given laws.

So, in other words, God can use anyone. Regardless of his personal issues and lifestyle, there are many points in the 95 point thesis that were still from God. IMV.

His viewpoints on the 4 books may have been wrong but still there were points that were right when he protested.

Like one person said, "Be like the cow, eat the hay and leave the stubble". :D
And this was sorta my point as well, especially since the Catholic Church has gone through many scandals over its nearly 2000 years but so have the Protestants. Some points that Luther brought up I'm in agreement but some others I'm not, nor should Catholics or Protestants throw some stones at each other since they both live in glass houses themselves.

I've been attending mass for over 55 years now, and you know "my story" fairly well on this, and yet I never heard a priest or deacon badmouth Protestants or Protestantism. And yet when I was a Lutheran, I heard from the pulpit anti-Catholic rhetoric a great many times. My parents both were sharply anti-Catholic, so you can imagine their chagrin when I told them I was going to marry a Sicilian who was and is a devout Catholic. But, to their credit, they did change not only their view but also their overall opinion of the Church, including coming to mass with us occasionally.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And this was sorta my point as well, especially since the Catholic Church has gone through many scandals over its nearly 2000 years but so have the Protestants. Some points that Luther brought up I'm in agreement but some others I'm not, nor should Catholics or Protestants throw some stones at each other since they both live in glass houses themselves.
I agree! I hope I wasn't throwing a stone but simply relating history. As you said, there are enough errors on everybody's side than to respond by throwing stones at the glass houses.

I've been attending mass for over 55 years now, and you know "my story" fairly well on this, and yet I never heard a priest or deacon badmouth Protestants or Protestantism. And yet when I was a Lutheran, I heard from the pulpit anti-Catholic rhetoric a great many times. My parents both were sharply anti-Catholic, so you can imagine their chagrin when I told them I was going to marry a Sicilian who was and is a devout Catholic. But, to their credit, they did change not only their view but also their overall opinion of the Church, including coming to mass with us occasionally.

Did you know the current Pope did a live "Hello brother" at our conference meeting some years ago? We replied with the same love via direct link and prayed for him.
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
I'm sorry... I mis-read this.

James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, (evil) and he will flee from you.

1 Peter 5:8-9 8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion,walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

Sorry but this doesn't hold, according to your logic based on those verses, a person who does evil works is possessed by the devil so it must be resisted, which is just not true for 2 reasons.
both of your quotes explicitly say resist the devil (spiritual being) not people and their evil (physical beings).

Recall that Jesus resisted the devil but not evil works of people.

Recall that we should bless those (people) who do evil to us, not resist them.
Don't recall where but somewhere in proverbs or psalms it says that we should not accuse the devil because that means accusing yourself.

Resisting the devil means avoiding temptations, it is about self rather than others.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Sorry but this doesn't hold, according to your logic based on those verses, a person who does evil works is possessed by the devil so it must be resisted, which is just not true for 2 reasons.
both of your quotes explicitly say resist the devil (spiritual being) not people and their evil (physical beings).

Recall that Jesus resisted the devil but not evil works of people.

Recall that we should bless those (people) who do evil to us, not resist them.
Don't recall where but somewhere in proverbs or psalms it says that we should not accuse the devil because that means accusing yourself.

Resisting the devil means avoiding temptations, it is about self rather than others.
I see here, that there is some truth but, at the same time, not necessarily completely scriptural.

Just because one resists evil doesn't mean that he is possessed. He could be influenced or even oppressed.

So let's look at scripture:

Acts 13: 9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him. 10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.

Certainly this doesn't line up with your position.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

This doesn't fit your position either as he resisted them.

HOWEVER:

You are right also:


Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, againstpowers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

But people many time are used or influenced by these spirits.

Jesus also resisted evil works:

John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

But, as you said, sometime we should repay evil with good.
 
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