• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians: The King of the North

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Screenshot (6).png


I don't know where to put this thread, so please move it if it needs to be put somewhere else. It has to do with the role of the "King of the North" in the time of the end.

Daniel received a vision of 2 kings at war. It was written down for us throughout Daniel 11. The kings would change identity as we go down through history. In our days the Kings of the North and the South are Russia and the Anglo-American duel world Empire of the United States and Great Britain.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleAccounts/pub-jwb-080_10_VIDEO

A video explaining how the identities have changed throughout the last days.

What we see happening right now between Putin and Biden has not changed since the Cold War days when the angel declared that between the two kings there would be a "pushing:"

In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood."-Daniel 11:40.

This pushing was seen throughout the Cold War days between the United States and the U. S. S. R.

To see the King of the North becoming active again is very interesting to keen observers of Bible prophecy. Because just as surely as all the other prophecies concerning the conflicts of WWI and WWII and the Cold War in Daniel 11, we can be sure the remaining ones about this conflagration between the two kings will certainly soon come to pass:

"“But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction.  And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."-Daniel 11:44-45.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/series/more-topics/russia-invades-ukraine-bible-meaning-hope/
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
View attachment 60397

I don't know where to put this thread, so please move it if it needs to be put somewhere else. It has to do with the role of the "King of the North" in the time of the end.

Daniel received a vision of 2 kings at war. It was written down for us throughout Daniel 11. The kings would change identity as we go down through history. In our days the Kings of the North and the South are Russia and the Anglo-American duel world Empire of the United States and Great Britain.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/VODBibleAccounts/pub-jwb-080_10_VIDEO

A video explaining how the identities have changed throughout the last days.

What we see happening right now between Putin and Biden has not changed since the Cold War days when the angel declared that between the two kings there would be a "pushing:"

In the time of the end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and horsemen and many ships; and he will enter into the lands and sweep through like a flood."-Daniel 11:40.

This pushing was seen throughout the Cold War days between the United States and the U. S. S. R.

To see the King of the North becoming active again is very interesting to keen observers of Bible prophecy. Because just as surely as all the other prophecies concerning the conflicts of WWI and WWII and the Cold War in Daniel 11, we can be sure the remaining ones about this conflagration between the two kings will certainly soon come to pass:

"“But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction.  And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him."-Daniel 11:44-45.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/series/more-topics/russia-invades-ukraine-bible-meaning-hope/
It is my understanding that Russia is Gog of Magog, a Kingdom to the north. China represents the Kings of the East. The King of the North of Daniel is not Russia for we see in Daniel 11:45 But news from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will go out with great fury to destroy many and devote them to destruction.
"Him' in this instance who is alarmed is Daniel's King of the North.

So during the Winter Olympics, Putin went to China and met Xi and together made an agreement the China would support Russia's position on Ukraine and Russia would support China's position on Taiwan. The western European/US alliance is alarmed, It is mostly agreed that the final head, the seventh head with ten horns of the beasts and Daniel and Revelation is the follow on the the Roman Empire and thus derives it linage from Babylon. This is who is alarmed at the rise of Russia and China, they challenge Satan Himself since this beast is that which will brought down by the rider on the white horse of Revelation at Armageddon. In Daniel, this same beast is called the King of the North and will be brought to naught in Daniel 11:45.

So the present war between Russia and Ukraine is the beginning of a larger war which will involve NATO, the King of the North.
 

Gezellig

Member
Let's say the king of the south is America. This is the most powerful state. Then the northern king must have enormous military and economic power to fulfill the prophecies in Daniel 11:40-43. Or were they fulfilled a little earlier (Daniel 11:36-39)?
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Old testament prophecies have been all fulfilled.
The only unfulfilled prophecy is revelation.

The "end of times" in Daniel refers to old testament eschatology (rather than new testament eschatology or today's times).
Same applies to other Daniels visions like "the great day of the Lord ", "the day of wrath" etc.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Old testament prophecies have been all fulfilled.
The only unfulfilled prophecy is revelation.

The "end of times" in Daniel refers to old testament eschatology (rather than new testament eschatology or today's times).
Same applies to other Daniels visions like "the great day of the Lord ", "the day of wrath" etc.
So do you consider the 'end of times' judgement of Daniel 12 as a fulfilled event and if so when did it occur?

When do you consider the end times of Revelation occurring, past or future?
 
Last edited:

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
So do you consider the 'end of times' judgement of Daniel 12 as a fulfilled event and if so when did it occur?

When do you consider the end times of Revelation occurring, past or future?
Eschatology is about the end of times, apocalypse or the science of last things.
We have OT eschatology and NT eschatology.

In the bible central point of both eschatologies is about the coming of savior (Christ), messiah.
OT apocalyptic prophecies are talking about things which will happen before and during coming of the messiah, Christ.
NT prophecy (revelation) the same way is about second coming of the messiah, Christ.

Jews don't believe Jesus is messiah, for them messiah is yet about to come, therefore for them not all OT prophecies are fulfilled, especially not those which talk about coming of messiah, their interpretation of OT prophecies is not the same as it is for Christians.

For Christians OT prophecies have been fulfilled.
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said he fulfilled the prophets (OT eschatology)
In Mark 13:28-32 Jesus is talking about his second coming (NT eschatology)


How does OT eschatology apply to Daniel as apocalyptic prophecy?

Daniel 12:1
here "everyone who is found written in the book" is about "the book of life".
The meaning of the book of life is explained in Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 20:12
In the book of life are therefore found those who follow Jesus' teachings and perform baptism.

Jesus being the savior and judge saved his followers with baptism from "anguish", "the great day of Jahweh", "wrath", "judgement day" and similar abominations described in Daniel and other apocalyptic prophecies of OT, and judged Jews (God chosen people) who refused conversion.
This is what OT eschatology (apocalyptic prophecies) really is about.
For most Jews this was blasphemy so they turned him to Roman authorities.

Daniel 12:2-3
Is best explained with:
Matthew 27:51-53 which depicts the very peak of OT apocalypse
1 Peter 1,29-20 explains what "the end of times" mean, it means coming of Jesus and resurrection of the dead which happened as depicted in Matthew 17:51-53 which aligns with "the end of times" in the next verse in Daniel 12:4

Knowing this the rest of Daniel 12 becomes self explanatory, ex. Daniel 12:7c says:
"when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end"

which is about the Jews (holly people) who refused to follow Jesus, with resurrection of Jesus and Roman conquest their power given by God come to an end, "the end of times", "the great day of Jahweh", "judgement day" has come with Jesus.

NT eschatology (revelation) is not different, central point is again Jesus, that is his second coming to earth, therefore it belongs to future.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Eschatology is about the end of times, apocalypse or the science of last things.
We have OT eschatology and NT eschatology.

In the bible central point of both eschatologies is about the coming of savior (Christ), messiah.
OT apocalyptic prophecies are talking about things which will happen before and during coming of the messiah, Christ.
NT prophecy (revelation) the same way is about second coming of the messiah, Christ.

Jews don't believe Jesus is messiah, for them messiah is yet about to come, therefore for them not all OT prophecies are fulfilled, especially not those which talk about coming of messiah, their interpretation of OT prophecies is not the same as it is for Christians.

For Christians OT prophecies have been fulfilled.
In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said he fulfilled the prophets (OT eschatology)
In Mark 13:28-32 Jesus is talking about his second coming (NT eschatology)


How does OT eschatology apply to Daniel as apocalyptic prophecy?

Daniel 12:1
here "everyone who is found written in the book" is about "the book of life".
The meaning of the book of life is explained in Revelation 3:5 and Revelation 20:12
In the book of life are therefore found those who follow Jesus' teachings and perform baptism.

Jesus being the savior and judge saved his followers with baptism from "anguish", "the great day of Jahweh", "wrath", "judgement day" and similar abominations described in Daniel and other apocalyptic prophecies of OT, and judged Jews (God chosen people) who refused conversion.
This is what OT eschatology (apocalyptic prophecies) really is about.
For most Jews this was blasphemy so they turned him to Roman authorities.

Daniel 12:2-3
Is best explained with:
Matthew 27:51-53 which depicts the very peak of OT apocalypse
1 Peter 1,29-20 explains what "the end of times" mean, it means coming of Jesus and resurrection of the dead which happened as depicted in Matthew 17:51-53 which aligns with "the end of times" in the next verse in Daniel 12:4

Knowing this the rest of Daniel 12 becomes self explanatory, ex. Daniel 12:7c says:
"when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end"

which is about the Jews (holly people) who refused to follow Jesus, with resurrection of Jesus and Roman conquest their power given by God come to an end, "the end of times", "the great day of Jahweh", "judgement day" has come with Jesus.

NT eschatology (revelation) is not different, central point is again Jesus, that is his second coming to earth, therefore it belongs to future.
Thank you for your very detailed explanation of your understanding paradox. However there is some indication that Daniel 12 refers to the the same period as Revelation. Matthew 24:15 Meaning of the Abomination That Causes Desolation
In any event, I respect your belief. .
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Thank you for your very detailed explanation of your understanding paradox. However there is some indication that Daniel 12 refers to the the same period as Revelation. Matthew 24:15 Meaning of the Abomination That Causes Desolation
In any event, I respect your belief. .

I agree, there are many different interpretations found online and among believers but...
Matthew 24:15 refers to Daniel 9:27 (not Daniel 12) which says this "abomination of desolation" is not the actual end of times but rather once it happens it will be there for some time until end of the times ("until the decreed end").
Which is in turn addressed in 1 Maccabees 1,54-64 as "a desolating sacrilege on the altar" followed by issues for the Jews as depicted by Jesus.

This is one interpretation another one less likely is around 2 Maccabees 6:2

There are a lot of verses in Daniel that were "borrowed" into revelation, but revelation is much later work.
Daniel is supposedly written around 167-164 BC during times of Antioch Epifanes (time around when this "abomination of desolation" occurs in 1Mak 1,54) , while revelation is later work written around 95 AD

Regarding Matthew 24:15, my opinion is that Jesus was using Daniel to explain how "end of the times" will look like rather than indicating prophecy of Daniel as yet to be fulfilled.
This is not odd because we know Jesus was referring to scriptures in several places across gospels.

Interpretation about "abomination of desolation" of early Christians was Roman invasion of Jerusalem in 54 AD and destruction of the temple which is stays destroyed until today, they saw this event as fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I agree, there are many different interpretations found online and among believers but...
Matthew 24:15 refers to Daniel 9:27 (not Daniel 12) which says this "abomination of desolation" is not the actual end of times but rather once it happens it will be there for some time until end of the times ("until the decreed end").
Which is in turn addressed in 1 Maccabees 1,54-64 as "a desolating sacrilege on the altar" followed by issues for the Jews as depicted by Jesus.

This is one interpretation another one less likely is around 2 Maccabees 6:2

There are a lot of verses in Daniel that were "borrowed" into revelation, but revelation is much later work.
Daniel is supposedly written around 167-164 BC during times of Antioch Epifanes (time around when this "abomination of desolation" occurs in 1Mak 1,54) , while revelation is later work written around 95 AD

Regarding Matthew 24:15, my opinion is that Jesus was using Daniel to explain how "end of the times" will look like rather than indicating prophecy of Daniel as yet to be fulfilled.
This is not odd because we know Jesus was referring to scriptures in several places across gospels.

Interpretation about "abomination of desolation" of early Christians was Roman invasion of Jerusalem in 54 AD and destruction of the temple which is stays destroyed until today, they saw this event as fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.
Again, thank you for your very well explained response paradox. For myself at this time, I have expectation of a second coming sooner rather than later, but who knows?
 

paradox

(㇏(•̀ᵥᵥ•́)ノ)
Again, thank you for your very well explained response paradox. For myself at this time, I have expectation of a second coming sooner rather than later, but who knows?
hi, I'm away from my pc so I made an account on mobile...

revelation says a lot about 2nd coming of crhist.
problem starts with chapter 6 because it implies Jesus will unlock 7 events that follow.
7th event explicitly states that.
therefore to speculate about when it will happen we are limited to first 3 chapters only, chapter 4 already implies Jesus is there.
therefore not useful for speculation.

first 3 chapters talk about 7 churches and events before Jesus will come.
all of these churches are old churches established by apostles located in modern day turkey, these Christian churches no longer exist, turkey today is a Muslim country, those churches were overrun by Muslims long time ago.

worshipers and people is what is considered a church rather than church buildings.
as we know modern day turkey is a Muslim country, therefore prophecy about Holly ghost talking to 7 churches is Christian somebody spreading the word of God to Muslims living there.
very likely conversion attempt.

later chapters reveal how Jesus and saints are about to lead the war against his enemies.

I know, this sounds like Holly War must errupt for prophecy to fulfill itself, but we know fom OT eschatology that jews also expected a warrior messiah but...
jesus had come as servant rather than warrior, therefore Holly War is not certain.

what is certain is word of God directed toward those people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top