Christians: Scripture opposes evidence based faith & creationism

[Enoch07]

They were described as experiencing tangable maricles and evidence's first hand so they didn't need any faith to believe.

No biblical character ever had a faith requirement as a basis for belief.

So that pretty much discounts every single biblical character in the Bible. There is no faith in the Bible as far as its characters are concerned.

Job had to have faith, for God to prove a point to Satan. He did not get a heads up or was it made known to him he was being tested.

Noah had to have faith and build the ark, even though no one believed him. Without faith he never would have built the ark, hence no story at all.

You don't think David had faith when faced against Goliath with only a tiny strip of leather and a stone?

Your mistaken. Most if not all prominent figures in the bible had their faith tested multiple times, usually without any first hand experience before hand.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Faith wasn't a requirement in the narratives and portrayals for it's characters.

Sincerity was required though. They had to have conviction. There were occasions in which people had a bad track record and it was overlooked, but they had to be sincere. Examples of exceptions: Zacheus the taxman, Naaman the Syrian general, several blind people, a father with a sick child and Peter among others.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Job had to have faith, for God to prove a point to Satan. He did not get a heads up or was it made known to him he was being tested.

Noah had to have faith and build the ark, even though no one believed him. Without faith he never would have built the ark, hence no story at all.

You don't think David had faith when faced against Goliath with only a tiny strip of leather and a stone?

Your mistaken. Most if not all prominent figures in the bible had their faith tested multiple times, usually without any first hand experience before hand.

Well when God magically (or thunderusly) speaks to you from a storm, or through a bush on fire, or just plain out of the blue, there's assumedly not much need for any employment of faith in the context it's presented as in the Bible to be practiced today with a god who doesn't speak at all except quietly inside people's heads.

There's not a single biblical character anywhere that doesn't have something outlandish or supernaturally invoked by which they obey God on "faith". Something by which Christians say that's all they need, since God's supernatural communication has ceased and forever remains in the confines of written words in a book.

 

[Enoch07]

There's not a single biblical character anywhere that doesn't have something outlandish or supernaturally invoked by which they obey God on "faith".

Yes there is, which I already listed, but you just ignored it.

Job, he had no idea why he was being beset. But he had faith in God through the whole ordeal.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes there is, which I already listed, but you just ignored it.

Job, he had no idea why he was being beset. But he had faith in God through the whole ordeal.

Job 38:1

It just doesn't seem like a faith situation to me in the way people are putting it as being today.

One can argue that Job didn't need any convincing that God wouldn't be capable of seeing him through, given the way God had presented himself in an apparent display of power.

Job didn't have God speaking silently in his head which would be more conducive to an act of faith had it been so, but the allegory played out in Job didn't put it that way.

 

[David T]

It is sometimes put to me that because I accept Evolution or because I do not take the Bible literally where someone else does that I'm in the wrong, that I have fake faith, that I am not sincere. Its as if I have sinned by taking an interest in Science or that I have backstabbed somebody. If I listen to some preacher circumnavigate the podium, it is more than often the case that they will seek to undermine my position. They do not like Science or those who do. They do not trust evidence -- except when it comes to proving God's existence using bad evidence. These, I contend, are the atheists by doing these things. They encourage unfaithfulness under cover of insisting belief is evidence supported. No, it should only be action-supported.

I contend that the God of the Bible is ineffable -- too great to be described in words, and a believer believes without proof or is not a believer. That is, gather all that the believer thinks they know and take it away, and then see if they are a believer or not. It is a question of commitment and action not of words or knowing. "But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18)

Modern creationism has no Biblical basis, primarily because it seeks to prove God exists. It is a viscous irony. For this reason I also contend that modern creationism is a sham, cooked up by purse-pinching ministers to shore up their accounting. Their churches are bleeding. They are scrambling to attack anything that moves -- even Science and even Christians who have an education in Science.

I will contend here that belief in the invisible, unsearchable, omnipresent one and only God if claimed on the basis of proofs is no different from atheism. What has such a 'Believer' done differently than any atheist? It is not I, who do not take the Bible literally who should be called the atheist. It is anyone who tries to prove God's existence whether through the Bible or miracles or stage props. The more they seek to assure themselves of their faith, the more they should realize that there is a problem. I think they are atheists who have simply not discovered it for themselves, yet! The one who points the finger at me, ought to consider their own difficult precipice, their own weakness in that they are relying upon words and arguments; and they should disregard those and look at their actions instead. If I am a believer I'll act like one and if not then not.

A believer should believe without proofs. Belief in the invisible God is from heaven, not from proofs. I'll start us off with several verses from the Christian NIV Bible:

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matthew 6:6)

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible." (Hebrews 11:27)

Matthew Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 16:16-17)

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy," (I Peter 1:8)

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

"Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God." (I Corinthians 8:2-3)

Well written brick. Robert frost said that Christianity was so atheistic in its beliefs. sometimes I have said to harsh anti religious views how southern baptist without jesus of you. We are creatures of collective agreement, and over time those become a calcification of thought, In science, in religion, in culture. We abandon, freedom of thought, it requires to much effort, and we simpley default to "experts" to tell us what to think. We then are "experts" by some magic power on topics that "experts" may have zero clue about. I will say that is true in religion in context to the topic"god" and if that is true then we do not understand nature, but we have a very structured doctrinal orthodoxy understanding of nature. I see no difference between modern science and religion in regards to that tendency. It's dangerous. Till then I will be john Muir!! Except with my klr 650 instead of a mule.

 

[Brickjectivity]

They were described as experiencing tangable maricles and evidence's first hand so they didn't need any faith to believe.

No biblical character ever had a faith requirement as a basis for belief.

So that pretty much discounts every single biblical character in the Bible. There is no faith in the Bible as far as its characters are concerned.

Not some sort of conviction about believing the right things, no; nor was there some sin in doubt. The miracles let you know that it is talking about something else. Sampson's miraculous strength: nobody cares how strong he is! Its not what the story is about. Notice how useless it is for one judge in history to have super powers, yet to listen to many preachers or sunday school teachers you'd think it was a virtue and as if by a bowel cleansing push to believe one becomes virtuous and may expect physical confirmation of the invisible. Again: who are the atheists in this?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Robert frost said that Christianity was so atheistic in its beliefs. sometimes I have said to harsh anti religious views how southern baptist without jesus of you.

Many of the famous English poets go through internal struggles dealing with the superstitious mumbo jumbo that is being pumped by ignorant ministers of their day. They try to balance their understanding of History and their real world experience against what society is telling them to believe, and its hard for them. You can read it in their poems. They live in a secret world that the people around them are not prepared to see. My favorite poem so far is The Tyger, not just because its beautiful and descriptive but because of the questions its asking.

We are creatures of collective agreement, and over time those become a calcification of thought, In science, in religion, in culture. We abandon, freedom of thought, it requires to much effort, and we simpley default to "experts" to tell us what to think.

'Faith' is a word whose meaning has shifted over the last few centuries. What it means today is that we can sit on our butts doing nothing and call it virtue if we will go somewhere and experience emotional catharsis on Sunday. Of course this is not going to go down well with anyone who sees it, and for those seeking it is very confusing. We see them come through this forum weekly if not daily -- all wondering where they can find real religion, because they aren't seeing any. The cause is that many have a superstitious replacement for religion today. The NT calls it "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." Of course this confuses people, especially those who are poor or who are just trying to become whole. I give every consideration to those who are just trying to find truth, do the right thing, get the help they are looking for; but unfortunately what they really need are not words.

We then are "experts" by some magic power on topics that "experts" may have zero clue about. I will say that is true in religion in context to the topic"god" and if that is true then we do not understand nature, but we have a very structured doctrinal orthodoxy understanding of nature. I see no difference between modern science and religion in regards to that tendency. It's dangerous. Till then I will be john Muir!! Except with my klr 650 instead of a mule.

I blame this current miasma of superstition for my country's current political problems. It has caused more than just a denial of Science and a false accusation of atheism against Scientists. It has provided creature comfort for everyone who wants an income without having to work. All they have to do is find a church and signal that they are prepared to assist the minister in hoodwinking people, and they are on their way to a career. Every problem here relates to it, and just as the Bible says it is always the fault of the religious people when things go bad in a country. That is the case today, but the so called religious are in denial about it and pointing fingers.

 

[David T]

Many of the famous English poets go through internal struggles dealing with the superstitious mumbo jumbo that is being pumped by ignorant ministers of their day. They try to balance their understanding of History and their real world experience against what society is telling them to believe, and its hard for them. You can read it in their poems. They live in a secret world that the people around them are not prepared to see. My favorite poem so far is The Tyger, not just because its beautiful and descriptive but because of the questions its asking.

'Faith' is a word whose meaning has shifted over the last few centuries. What it means today is that we can sit on our butts doing nothing and call it virtue if we will go somewhere and experience emotional catharsis on Sunday. Of course this is not going to go down well with anyone who sees it, and for those seeking it is very confusing. We see them come through this forum weekly if not daily -- all wondering where they can find real religion, because they aren't seeing any. The cause is that many have a superstitious replacement for religion today. The NT calls it "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof." Of course this confuses people, especially those who are poor or who are just trying to become whole. I give every consideration to those who are just trying to find truth, do the right thing, get the help they are looking for; but unfortunately what they really need are not words.

I blame this current miasma of superstition for my country's current political problems. It has caused more than just a denial of Science and a false accusation of atheism against Scientists. It has provided creature comfort for everyone who wants an income without having to work. All they have to do is find a church and signal that they are prepared to assist the minister in hoodwinking people, and they are on their way to a career. Every problem here relates to it, and just as the Bible says it is always the fault of the religious people when things go bad in a country. That is the case today, but the so called religious are in denial about it and pointing fingers.

Amen preach it. Although I might say the audience is small!!!! Art is a painful process. Artists if it's got any depth hurts as much as it give hope insight, depth. It's their curse and their blessing. Kierkegaard said that he was understood so poorly, that his complaints about not being understood were not understood. That's the dilemma of the artist who has anything to offer. The pained poet exists today as much as I the past. Today they have melody of guitars accompanying it is all. We need that auditory aspect to feel the words. Straight up written poetry doesn't carry for us as it used to before radio. We used to be able to read poetry and feel the words as much as read the words. That has gone by the wayside with technology. So in that spirit I am posting Chris Cornell "like a stone". A very dark pained song. He recently commited suicide, it all was too much. He never quite escaped like Van Gogh. I reference John Muir, as the ultimate escapee! He lived in the forest as he walked in the city. He lived the "I am in the city I am not of the city". He, also said "off to the forest I go, to lose my mind and save my soul" and I sometimes say "off to the city I go to find my mind and lose my soul". Van gogh went through that daily no wonder he was screwy!!!!! Chris never quite found his soul. Rip Chris.

 

[Enoch07]

Job 38:1

It just doesn't seem like a faith situation to me in the way people are putting it as being today.

One can argue that Job didn't need any convincing that God wouldn't be capable of seeing him through, given the way God had presented himself in an apparent display of power.

Job didn't have God speaking silently in his head which would be more conducive to an act of faith had it been so, but the allegory played out in Job didn't put it that way.

But Job was beset in Job 1:7. God spoke to him afterwards. God did not speak to Job before he tested his faith.

 

[Twilight Hue]

But Job was beset in Job 1:7. God spoke to him afterwards. God did not speak to Job before he tested his faith.

Are you saying this was the very first time Job encountered God?

 

[Enoch07]

Are you saying this was the very first time Job encountered God?

The whole story of Job was God proving to Satan that Job would remain faithful to God, even when God allowed bad things to happen to Job.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The whole story of Job was God proving to Satan that Job would remain faithful to God, even when God allowed bad things to happen to Job.

I figured it as being a question of one's loyalty because the story deals more with abandonment and betrayal scenarios rather than an unestablished sense of trust that is apparently conducent with faith as it is understood by people today.

 

[Enoch07]

I figured it as being a question of one's loyalty because the story deals more with abandonment and betrayal scenarios rather than an unestablished sense of trust that is apparently conducent with faith as it is understood by people today.

That in part, is what faith is. Sometimes even Christians feel like life is unfair or unjust. Faith helps us get through these hard times, because we know God will make it fair and just in the end.

 

[Muffled]

God does not show Himself for 2 reasons.

1. Being the fleshy body cannot survive His unsheilded presence.

2. Its easy to love a Father you can touch and see. Its hard to love a Father who you cannot touch or see. This helps us develop faith.

I think that anyone who's faith is based on evidence is going about it the wrong way. Nothing wrong with already having faith and love in God, yet still search for evidence though.

I believe He found a way. Maybe it is the same way God is in me but not in His full power.

 

[Muffled]

It is sometimes put to me that because I accept Evolution or because I do not take the Bible literally where someone else does that I'm in the wrong,

I believe one must have evidence to believe in evolution and that is lacking. I believe one must take literal that which is literal.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I believe one must have evidence to believe in evolution and that is lacking. I believe one must take literal that which is literal.

Belief requires effort and moral courage or is not belief. Evolution is as difficult as watching a television show. Accepting Jesus on the other hand is a totally different matter. It requires all kinds of effort.

Paul summarizes that the letter kills but the spirit gives life. Paul says we are dead in our sins without Christ, yet here stand people not in Christ. Jesus says repentance is resurrection, yet Paul and Peter are in their graves and early Christians put R.I.P. on gravestones. RIP means 'Rest in peace' not 'See you soon'. Those people in their graves are alive in Christ. Hence being a Christian is about not living for your own self, and this is what takes faithfulness.

 

[Phantasman]

It's easy to hate a father you can touch and see. It's easy to create an imaginary father who's perfect, to love and look up to.

I think faith is view wrongly. Faith, trust in teacher, a mentor, an idea is necessary at the beginning. It is a necessary condition caused by ignorance. However it should be a temporary condition, not a permanent one. As you test the words of a teacher it should become abundantly clear, at some point, whether what they were teaching is true or not. Once you have discerned for yourself the truth of what was taught, faith would no longer be necessary.

Faith is used daily by all people. If you are driving on a two lane road, and traffic comes towards you in the other lane, do you swerve off of the road? No. You have developed faith that the opposing traffic will stay in it's own lane, just as they do you. Does this faith leave? No. It's taken for granted, not even thought of.

Order a McDonalds hamburger, you have faith it will arrive at the window. You actually have learned to expect it.

You trust faith and don't even know it. When you go to sleep, do you have faith you will wake up? Many haven't. Just as many have swerved into a head on collision as stated above. So where is the proof? There isn't any.

A Christian isn't about just faith. Hope is there as well. A Christian hopes there is a God. Atheists hope that there isn't. If there isn't a God, what does a Christian lose? If there is, an Atheist stands to lose.

We each make our own choices, and will reap the final benefits of those choices. The plan is perfect. God cannot be proven to exist or not exist.

But one thing is for sure. Man didn't make himself, or the mind that has the ability to understand whether there is a higher power or not.

It's a personal choice, that's all. You choose where to place your faith and hope.

 

[Nakosis]

Faith is used daily by all people. If you are driving on a two lane road, and traffic comes towards you in the other lane, do you swerve off of the road? No. You have developed faith that the opposing traffic will stay in it's own lane, just as they do you. Does this faith leave? No. It's taken for granted, not even thought of.

It's not faith. It's based on past experience. I've driven many years without an accident and I don't simply trust folks are going to obey traffic laws, if I see something that's a threat, I take action. I have to do so in the past and have experience dealing with folks who are bad drivers. When I first started driving, yes it was a lot of faith. I didn't know how I would be able to handle traffic. Stayed off the freeways initially cause that was scary. After many years of driving I feel confident in my abilities. Tried and true.

Order a McDonalds hamburger, you have faith it will arrive at the window. You actually have learned to expect it.

Not really. If I purchase something they better deliver. I pay, it's a contract. I feel confident in my ability to get them to honor that contract.

You trust faith and don't even know it. When you go to sleep, do you have faith you will wake up? Many haven't. Just as many have swerved into a head on collision as stated above. So where is the proof? There isn't any.

I'm the proof. I'm here. Many years of successfully dealing with whatever life throws at me. I've dealt with traffic, dealt with McDonalds, managed to go to sleep and wake up, many, many times. I don't need faith, I have trust that I will be able to continue to be successful in driving, buying food, waking, because of a lot of past experience. It's not a guarantee but it certainly not faith.

A Christian isn't about just faith. Hope is there as well. A Christian hopes there is a God. Atheists hope that there isn't. If there isn't a God, what does a Christian lose? If there is, an Atheist stands to lose.

I don't hope there isn't a God, I'm fine either way. I just prefer that my choices are based on actual experiences that I can trust.

We each make our own choices, and will reap the final benefits of those choices. The plan is perfect. God cannot be proven to exist or not exist.

But one thing is for sure. Man didn't make himself, or the mind that has the ability to understand whether there is a higher power or not.

It's a personal choice, that's all. You choose where to place your faith and hope.

Sure, I can have faith in whatever because faith doesn't require any reason for belief. Trust however requires reason. If I'm going to put my trust in something I should be able to justify that trust.

I have reason to trust my driving because of my experience for example.

I don't know God. Faith is trust without being able to justify a reason to do so. If God was here, if God could prove himself, I'd have a reason to trust in God's existence.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

It is sometimes put to me that because I accept Evolution or because I do not take the Bible literally where someone else does that I'm in the wrong, that I have fake faith, that I am not sincere. Its as if I have sinned by taking an interest in Science or that I have backstabbed somebody. If I listen to some preacher circumnavigate the podium, it is more than often the case that they will seek to undermine my position. They do not like Science or those who do. They do not trust evidence -- except when it comes to proving God's existence using bad evidence. These, I contend, are the atheists by doing these things. They encourage unfaithfulness under cover of insisting belief is evidence supported. No, it should only be action-supported.

I contend that the God of the Bible is ineffable -- too great to be described in words, and a believer believes without proof or is not a believer. That is, gather all that the believer thinks they know and take it away, and then see if they are a believer or not. It is a question of commitment and action not of words or knowing. "But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds." (James 2:18)

Modern creationism has no Biblical basis, primarily because it seeks to prove God exists. It is a viscous irony. For this reason I also contend that modern creationism is a sham, cooked up by purse-pinching ministers to shore up their accounting. Their churches are bleeding. They are scrambling to attack anything that moves -- even Science and even Christians who have an education in Science.

I will contend here that belief in the invisible, unsearchable, omnipresent one and only God if claimed on the basis of proofs is no different from atheism. What has such a 'Believer' done differently than any atheist? It is not I, who do not take the Bible literally who should be called the atheist. It is anyone who tries to prove God's existence whether through the Bible or miracles or stage props. The more they seek to assure themselves of their faith, the more they should realize that there is a problem. I think they are atheists who have simply not discovered it for themselves, yet! The one who points the finger at me, ought to consider their own difficult precipice, their own weakness in that they are relying upon words and arguments; and they should disregard those and look at their actions instead. If I am a believer I'll act like one and if not then not.

A believer should believe without proofs. Belief in the invisible God is from heaven, not from proofs. I'll start us off with several verses from the Christian NIV Bible:

"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matthew 6:6)

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible." (Hebrews 11:27)

Matthew Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 16:16-17)

"Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy," (I Peter 1:8)

Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:28-29)

"Those who think they know something do not yet know as they ought to know. But whoever loves God is known by God." (I Corinthians 8:2-3)

I've simplified the process. I believe the Bilble is true and I believe natural history.