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Christians: Predestination?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by groovydancer88, Feb 20, 2005.

  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    uh... I wouldn't. God is amazingly complex for such a simpleton as me. I am happy to know that he is Love (which is WAY personal) and still allows free choice, because true love is predicated on free choice.
     
  2. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I respect your humbleness here NetDoc. But on other threads you do the same as me. We all try to say what god does and does not do. You say god is love, how do you know that? Youa re pigeonholing god by saying that. Why can't god be both love and hate? Why limit god? I think the god of the christians can't be limited, or else "he" ceases to be god. God is beyond our human understanding, and I think that if we even give it a name, or a title, we are limiting it by our finite language.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I get "God is love" from the scriptures. There is a certain duality that God exibits, but rather than limit the limitless, I merely try to understand instead.
     
  4. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    My point of questioning this as same faith debates exactly. Master Vigil, you cannot debate within the premises of Christianity if you can't understand how NetDoc can describe who God is. There is no debate really, because you can't understand what Christianity is if you're not a Christian- you're not qualified.
     
  5. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    God gives himself a title, Vigil "I AM."
     
  6. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I think it's possible for anger without surprise. The verses I would quote all have to do with God "knowing" to the end of time. That indicates to me that there can be no surprise.
     
  7. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    I don't see "shock"....just a statement that He has not found anyone else. Same for second verse.

    I may see that a shocking thing has happened....it doesn't imply that I'm surprised. For example, I may say that the events in Iraq are shocking...but it doesn't mean I'm surprised. Even I knew where this was going. It's still shocking.
     
  8. angellous_evangellous

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    I have been developing my theological balance between God's sovereinty and freewill. I confess that I am a Calvinist, but I am not a fatalist. So I think that God has two types of will: the active and redemptive. That is, I think that there are some things that happen because of God's active will. The active will of God includes His active role in the universe. This includes the destiny of Jesus to die for our sins, the role of Judas, the hardening of Pharoh's heart, etc. As part of God's active will, the participants have no choice and are directed 100% by God's desire. On the other hand, humans for the most part have freewill. We choose to follow God or rebel. However, God does not abandon anyone to their own destruction, unless it is His judgement. As we rebel, God has a redemptive will for our lives. God wants everyone to obey his words, not everyone does this, so He desires that they repent and live a redeemed lifestyle in Jesus Christ.

    This being the case:
    A girl can be raped by a man. This action is against the surely not the active will of God: He did not actively will for her to be harmed. The man did it in his own freewill, rebelling against God. He can repent, and be redeemed and live his life in Christ. Conversely, the girl can find healing in God's redemptive will. They can both pray and seek God's hand and see how he can work all things together for good in his higher plan.
     
  9. angellous_evangellous

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    As a Christian we respect the New and Old Testament Scriptures, written in finite human language, as the authoritative description of the character of the Christian God. Applying reason and responsible interpretation, we can conclude within certain limitations, what the character of our God is. In short, we cannot fully know the character of our God, but quite simply, He has limited what we can know. So while we cannot know what he has not revealed to us, we do know that he has told us that he will not change fundamental aspects of his character.

    Therefore, we have been told that Jesus is God. We believe that He showed us the character of the Father, and we are told that character will not change. We can conclude then that the Christian God cannot be both love and hate at the same time, based upon what we do know. There are limits for us.
     
  10. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    Well, maybe alot of people don't do this. But I study all different kinds of religions. I actually was christian for the majority of my life, and was going to become a capuchin friar, a 2nd order franciscan, and a benedictine at different points in my life. I've studied christianity and definitely do understand it. I am no less qualified than any other christian to debate on the christian premises. I understand that you didn't know that about me, but I wish you wouldn't judge people so quickly.
     
  11. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Master Vigil, I seriously question you being a true Christian if you are dabbling in taoism now. If you DID truly understand Christianity you would know that you need to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour because you are a sinner and can't save yourself. But I can judge because the BIble tells Christians to "Judge righteous judgement" and beware the traditions of man. How else can I avoid false doctrine and the such without judging? I'm sure in your study of Christianity you would have read that in God's word. But still, I don't believe you are qualified to argue as a Christian unless you are one. And a person is not a Christian unless he is saved through Jesus's blood.

    By the way, nice baby robin.
     
  12. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    First off, I never claimed to be a christian now. But I sure was, and sure know the way christians think. I wonder though, what really makes a true christian? One that judges others without even meeting them, claiming they sin because they don't believe as you believe and can't save themselves because of course "your religion is the only religion?" Or perhaps a true christian respects, loves, and understands how only the humble make it into heaven?

    Thanks about the robin.
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hey Melody, how would you define "astonished"? Check this out...
     
  14. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    A true Christian follows what God says in the Bible. That is what I base my belief on. You should know, as you say you have studied the "religion." Look it up yourself- the Bible tells Christians to judge.
     
  15. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    ND,
    I can say I'm astonished or surprised without actually being so. For example, I'm surprised that everyone doesn't believe in God....but I'm not really surprised. God knows how people will choose so he's really not astonished in the sense that he *is* surprised, but more that it is surprising. There's a large degree of difference.
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You're making God sound a bit like Bill Clinton there! :D

    I think he meant what he said and in the way he said it!
     
  17. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Well that certainly wasn't my intent but I'll stick by what I said :) .
     
  18. true blood

    true blood Active Member

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    God's foreknowledge preceeds predestination, nuff said.
     
  19. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    "Church Purposed By God" / Jerry C. Brewer / The Gospel Preceptor
    This is only a portion of this lesson.

    What the Protestant world calls predestination today is the concoction of 16th century Reformer, John Calvin. Taught by Paul in the Ephesian epistle, predestination in God's eternal purpose is a Biblical subject which was perverted by Calvin's theology. Born in Noyon, France July 10, 1509, Calvin devoted his life to theological pursuits. In 1536 he published his views on man's redemption in a volume entitled the Institutes of The Christian Religion. As a leader in the Reformation, Calvin wielded a tremendous influence and his philosophy was warmly received by the Protestant world because it attacked many of the peculiarities of the Church of Rome. The enthusiasm with which Protestants accepted his views is paradoxical since many of them were borrowed from the Catholic Augustine (354-430 AD).

    Calvin claimed man was "created to that misery to which he is subject" and "the necessity of sinning is laid upon the reprobate by the ordination of God." (John McClintock and James Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological and Ecclesiastical Literature, Vol. II, p. 43). Divesting man of free will and perverting the Biblical concept of grace with its twisted theories of predestination and election, Calvin's theology renders man a mindless entity in the hands of a sadistic God.

    Calvinistic election is attributed to God's arbitrary predestination of individuals. While the Bible teaches the children of God are the elect (1 Peter 2:9), it speaks of a class of persons, not individuals. Calvinism says the elect are those who were individually selected to salvation ("a certain number") and the non-elect are those eternally condemned individuals, both of whom were predestined to those ends before the world began. Predestination and election are Biblical terms, but Calvin perverted them in formulating his doctrine. Electing individuals to salvation, before the world began, God thereby predestined certain persons to salvation and others to damnation, according to Calvin. Holding that God's grace is only for the elect, Calvinism says certain individuals were arbitrarily chosen as recipients of it.

    But biblical predestination is concerned not with individuals, but the locus of salvation for election of a certain class of persons. That's the thrust of Paul's teaching in Ephesians 1:3-11.

    As God predestined creatures with gills to life in water, so those in Christ were predestined to eternal life in him. God does not choose who will enter Christ, but says that all who do are classified as His elect. A creature of free will, man chooses to obey or disobey God and when he chooses God, he is thereby elected to salvation in Christ Jesus. God's elect is constituted of all who elect to enter Christ through obedience to the gospel, (Romans 6:3-6). That is salvation by "grace... through faith," (Ephesians 2:8). God's grace provides salvation in Christ and man's faith appropriates the blessings thereof in that same location.
    www.gospelpreceptor.com/BreweJ20.htm
     
  20. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic Oldest Heretic

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    God is not subject to time nor anything else.
    When he sees us, he sees our whole lives not jut our "now"
    This does not mean he has set a plan for us to follow, just that he can see our lives path from beginning to end.
    He has given us free will which means we make all our own choices... he does not interfere .
    This does not mean that he is impersonal. He will answer prayer in his own way ( he maintains his own free will)
    If we pray he will guide us.
    If we never call on him he will let us continue our lives to the end with neither guidance nor interference.
    This attitude follows on for every thing, he neither causes nor prevents wars, death, disease, natural disasters nor any thing else.
    that he might extend miraculous help in the course of these events can be in answer to our prayers, but is always his own will that prevails.
    Though he is able to see every thing that will take place in time, does not mean he has set the path that is followed.
    That he could,there is no doubt
    That he has given us freewill means he has not.
     
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