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Christians: Predestination?

groovydancer88

Active Member
Do you believe that everything happens for a reason - that God has a specific purpose for every little thing that happens on the face of the earth? Is this the same thing as believing in predestination? Or do you believe that God stands back and lets things happen? Is it possible to believe in both? Why or why not? What role does free will play in this?
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
groovydancer88 said:
Do you believe that everything happens for a reason - that God has a specific purpose for every little thing that happens on the face of the earth? Is this the same thing as believing in predestination? Or do you believe that God stands back and lets things happen? Is it possible to believe in both? Why or why not? What role does free will play in this?
Predestination, as in God picks out those who will reach salvation and then guides them in that direction.....and everyone else is just sort of screwed? No, that's definitely not in my belief system.

I also don't believe that God "stands back" as that would imply that He just plopped us down on this ball of dirt and we're nothing but an ant farm to Him. That's also not in my belief system.

I do believe that we have free will and that we all have the opportunity for salvation. It just happens that God already knows who will answer and who will turn their backs because he can see all the way to the end (the beginning?).
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
"It just happens that God already knows who will answer and who will turn their backs because he can see all the way to the end (the beginning?)."

Then he already knows, and therefore it is already planned. If we had complete free will, god wouldn't know because of course it would be up to us. But if he knows, and can't be surprised, than it is predestined.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Master Vigil said:
"It just happens that God already knows who will answer and who will turn their backs because he can see all the way to the end (the beginning?)."

Then he already knows, and therefore it is already planned. If we had complete free will, god wouldn't know because of course it would be up to us. But if he knows, and can't be surprised, than it is predestined.

Knowing how people will ultimately choose doesn't mean we didn't have free will to start with. It just means he knows what our choices will be. They're still our choices.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
They may be our choices, but if god knows which choices we will choose it is because he is above our free will. And if god is above our free will, than even our free will is predestined.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
groovydancer88 said:
Do you believe that everything happens for a reason - that God has a specific purpose for every little thing that happens on the face of the earth? Is this the same thing as believing in predestination? Or do you believe that God stands back and lets things happen? Is it possible to believe in both? Why or why not? What role does free will play in this?

I believe in both. My first statement is that God's nature and the way His knowledge works is beyond our comprehension. OTOH, I also accept God as active and having intervened in history to bring it to the conclusion He desires. In this sense, everything in history happens for a reason, and He is ultimately in control.

I know that my actions are my own, and not God's, and that I am responsible for them. Most Christians accept being culpable for what we do, and God isn't to blame if I go out and beat an elderly woman; He has granted us the ability to choose.

So, I believe that God lets things happen, and that God has an overarching purpose. Why? <cliche>Divine revelation</cliche> Of course, there is also the fact that I believe in a God in control of history, but I can also see that I have partial control of my own actions.

How does God's allowance and active deciding work? I don't have the foggiest. He is God, after all.
 

groovydancer88

Active Member
No*s said:
I also accept God as active and having intervened in history to bring it to the conclusion He desires.
Other than the obvious - sending us his one and only son to be sacrificed - how so?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
groovydancer88 said:
Other than the obvious - sending us his one and only son to be sacrificed - how so?

God raises and lowers nations. Israel, for instance, was created by Him, and then, He sent it into exile and brought it back. He raised up the Roman Empire in preparation for the Gospel, maintained it, but when she began actively trying to compromise the faith, He destroyed her. A monk even explained that the crown would pass from Constantinople to Moscow, a "Third Rome." Russia, then, suffered a similar fate.

I believe God answers prayers, and He will even still perform miracles. The Holy Light, for instance, still comes every year, a miracle operating like clockwork. I have a thread on it here. I do believe God still heals when He wants (it's a miracle, and I only know two that recur regularly).

I, thus, believe God still works :).
 

keevelish

Member
Knowing how people will ultimately choose doesn't mean we didn't have free will to start with. It just means he knows what our choices will be. They're still our choices.
totally agree with you.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
God knows when he is coming again... but he doesn't know WHO is coming. He can be surprised and the Old Testament shows this. There are many things that God does without being a respector of persons:

Matthew 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
I don't see how god can be surprised. That would make me think he isn't all knowing and all powerful. And that is limiting god. And if you think god is a personal god that means he doesn't just start things, and sit back and watch them play out. But if you think that your choices are beyond gods knowledge, than that is exactly what he is doing. Just letting things play out. Therefore, god is not completely personal. And I don't think alot of you would agree that god just sits there and lets things play out.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
NetDoc said:
God knows when he is coming again... but he doesn't know WHO is coming. He can be surprised and the Old Testament shows this. There are many things that God does without being a respector of persons:
Netdoc,
Can you give the verses that lead you to believe God can be surprised? Everything I read says it is impossible to surprise God. The Bible states that He knew our names before we were born. There are other similar quotes that teach us that God knows every tiny thing....that nothing surprises Him.
 

Melody

Well-Known Member
Master Vigil said:
They may be our choices, but if god knows which choices we will choose it is because he is above our free will. And if god is above our free will, than even our free will is predestined.
Hmm....I had to go look up "predestination" just to make sure I really did know what the word meant. According to the online dictionaries, it means "The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation. " Another suggested that it also means God infallibly guides those He has selected for salvation.

In which case, I don't believe in predestination because that implies that we do not have free will. That God just dumped us here and said "Let's see....I think I'll take that one and that one and that one and condemned the rest to hell." The Bible clearly states that we all have the opportunity for salvation...but not all will answer.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Melody,

I will try to find those. I know that you can see how his anger seems to explode which appears that he was surprised by their actions.

On the converse, can you show us any verses where God claims to never be surprised?
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Here are two...

Jesus was astonished (surprised):

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Here God is "shocked"

Jeremiah 5:29 Should I not punish them for this?" declares the LORD. "Should I not avenge myself on such a nation as this? 30 "A horrible and shocking thing has happened in the land: 31 The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority, and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
Either god knows whats going to happen or god is not personal. He may know all the choices you can make, but isn't sure which one you will make. But that still seems to me like an impersonal god. Predestination has to do with more than just salvation. Do you think god knows what your thinking? Or what your going to do tomorrow? Or does god know it as its happening like you? If so, god is being surprised and isn't all knowing or all powerful.
 

Master Vigil

Well-Known Member
"I am not sure God can be so easily pigeonholed. God IS."

Than how would you pigeon hole god NetDoc? I am not pigeon holing tao, only some peoples ideas of their god. All I'm saying is that if people believe god lets them do whatever they do, than god isn't personal. But if god intervenes, or is present and knows all, than god is personal. Alot of people claim their god is personal, but has no knowledge of their actions. This is a contradicting in my opinion. I for one believe all is tao, but since tao is not human, no human knowledge is put onto it. Tao is. Alot of people don't think God is.

"I am debating within the premise of christian philosophy."
 
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