Christians Only: Why Easter is NOT the Way to Honor Christ.

[sojourner]

The church lost its way when men began to add things and borrow things from other belief systems. Bit by bit the corruption took place as the weeds that Jesus warned about, kept multiplying and choking out the wheat.

You think the church has lost its way. Others don’t share that assessment. I don’t think the church is perfect, but it is the body of Christ and follows the very basic teaching to love God and love neighbor.

Nowhere in scripture will you find the core teachings of Roman Catholicism.

In your opinion.

There is no triune deity who is nameless.
There is no immortal soul.
There is no hell of eternal torment, or purgatory.
There is no "Mary Mother of God".

In your opinion.

There was no highly decorated 'temple'

There is no temple, because there is no sacrifice. The temple is a place for sacrifice. There are no temples in Christianity.

There were no "saints" chosen by man after supposed miracles.

Paul talks about the Saints all the time. Sainthood isn’t based on miracles. Miracles are a sign, not a requirement.

There were no infant baptisms with a sprinkling of water, gaining involuntary members for the church.

Of course there were. The Bible speaks of whole families being baptized.

There was no liturgy or ritual.

Only if you don’t know what to look for. What do think Jesus and the disciples were doing in the upper room?

No fancy titles or distinct clothing or headgear.

What is “distinct clothing” today is typical Roman garb in biblical times.

We have to do our homework because we get no second chances in this

God is a God of second chances. That’s where we derive attributes of compassion, mercy, and forbearance.

"the word liturgy (/lɪtərdʒi/), derived from the technical term in ancient Greek (Greek: λειτουργία), leitourgia, which literally means "work for the people" is a literal translation of the two words "litos ergos" or "public service

It’s derived from laos and ergon, literally “people” (in the context of “tribe”) and “work.” Leiturgia is the work of the gathered people. It’s one of several basic acts of the church mentioned in the Bible, including kerygma, diakonos, euangelion, or worship, preaching, service, and gospeling.

How far back does liturgy go in Christianity? I do not see a sign of it from first century scripture

Because you don’t have an understanding of what’s going on in the accounts. Paul describes the Mass. so do the gospels. But it needs to be understood how the mass is derived from clearly- defined cultural expressions.

In the first century, there was no set ritual or set of repetitive prayers or laws governing what Christians were to do. Paul describes their meetings for worship as occasions for worship, prayer, song and incitement to love and fine works....(Hebrews 10:23-25) Jesus spent his time teaching the apostles what they had to pass on after his death. It was education, not ritual that was the foundation of Christianity.

The Bible is replete with repetitive teaching. That’s because the teaching was oral and repetition was necessary. The liturgy is really nothing more than a repetitive teaching of the gospel story.

plus, if you were Anglican, you should have known (if you were paying attention) that the Prayer Book is a framework. The rubrics provide for a great deal of spontaneity with language such as “may say...” or “the following or some other prayer/song/scripture is recited.” Even the Great Thanksgiving is not laid out in absolutes. So long as the four basic acts of Sanctus, epiclesis, anamnesis, snd benedictus are included, the whole prayer may be completely spontaneous. The service-as-presented is for the sake of expediency.

I, for one, derive a great deal of challenge, comfort, and depth from the oft-repeated words of the liturgy. It is not “mindless repetition,” unless you choose to not pay attention to the layers and flow that changes from week to week.

 

[sojourner]

On the contrary, prayer is a very important part of our worship and our meetings, as it was to Jesus. They are not ritualistic, said by rote....but come from the heart of the one either praying in private, or on behalf of others

They can be that. They can also be repetitive and known by rote. What do think the Shema is? It’s a rote prayer repeated. And the Mezuzah. So what?

 

[Deeje]

Let me just address your issue here....

There is one God whom Christians worshiped in and through Jesus, the God of Israel, and the Jews were never rejected.

God's whole purpose in choosing Israel as his people was to honor the most faithful man who existed at that time...Abraham. God promised that the "seed" (Messiah) would come through his lineage via Isaac and Jacob, who came to be named individually. But Israel's history was not one of faithfulness and obedience to the Laws of God that they swore to uphold at Mt Sinai.....just the opposite. Many times God wanted to wipe them out of existence, but because of his covenant he kept them in existence till his purpose in connection with them was completed.
He produced their Messiah and these very ones had him murdered. Knowing this was to occur, Jesus said of them....
Matthew 23:37-39 (NASB)....
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, ‘Blessed is the One who comes in the name of the Lord!’”

The "desolation" of their house was God's abandonment of that faithless nation. They would behold Jesus no more unless they accepted him as the one who 'came in the name of the Lord'.....Yahweh. In the last 2,000 years only individuals from that nation have come to accept Jesus as messiah.

There was to be a substitute nation to take Israel's place....no longer a fleshly Israel but a spiritual nation who were made up of Jews and Gentiles who had received the Messiah with gratitude and joy.

Acts 15:14...
" Simeon has related how God first looked favorably on the Gentiles, to take from among them a people for his name." (NASB)
Hated Gentiles now were more acceptable to God than the faithless Jews who rejected his Christ. These are the ones whom the apostle Paul called "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16)...these were made up of both Jewish and Gentile disciples of Jesus.

From the Christian confession that there can be only one path to salvation, however, it does not in any way follow that the Jews are excluded from God’s salvation because they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah of Israel and the Son of God.

Only by accepting Christ as their Savior could any person hope to gain salvation. Who told you otherwise? (1 John 4:14)

Such a claim would find no support in the soteriological understanding of Saint Paul, who in the Letter to the Romans not only gives expression to his conviction that there can be no breach in the history of salvation, but that salvation comes from the Jews (cf. also Jn 4:22).

John 4:22 is Jesus speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well...
"You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, because salvation is from the Jews." And this was absolutely correct....it began with Israel, but it did not end with them because they were serial covenant breakers, whereas Jehovah was not.

In his promise to Abraham, God had said that "all the nations" would benefit from the coming of his seed. The Savior had to be born as a human so that he could give his life in exchange for ours. (Romans 5:19-20) If it hadn't been Abraham, it would have been someone else. Israel were not chosen because of any superiority on their part, which is quite obvious from their conduct and the punishments they merited.

God entrusted Israel with a unique mission, and He does not bring his mysterious plan of salvation for all peoples (cf. 1 Tim 2:4) to fulfilment without drawing into it his “first-born son” (Ex 4:22). From this it is self-evident that Paul in the Letter to the Romans definitively negates the question he himself has posed, whether God has repudiated his own people. Just as decisively he asserts: “For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable” (Rom 11:29).

If God can call people...he can also cancel that call due to their disobedience. Acceptance of his laws was on the proviso that they would "strictly obey" him......which they never did. He had the right to cancel his covenant (which was a legal arrangement) the moment they broke it, but he lived up to his part, even though they failed to live up to theirs. Once his purpose in connection with that fleshly nation was fulfilled, he cast them off. As their history shows...there was no blessings from God for Israel...only curses. Even today, the nation of Israel in not a holy nation to God, but a blood spilling political nation that is allied to countries whose worship they despise. (Isaiah 1:15)

That the Jews are participants in God’s salvation is theologically unquestionable, but how that can be possible without confessing Christ explicitly, is and remains an unfathomable divine mystery. It is therefore no accident that Paul’s soteriological reflections in Romans 9-11 on the irrevocable redemption of Israel against the background of the Christ-mystery culminate in a magnificent doxology: “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways” (Rom 11:33).

I think you missed Paul's reference to those "Jews" who were not of the flesh, but of God's calling. These "Jews" were not circumcised in the flesh but in the heart by God's spirit. People of all nations are now free to join themselves to God's people but they must accept this terms for doing so. Read Romans 2:23-29.

I find it sadly amusing that you have no Scripture to turn to but ours.

I find it sadly amusing that you can assume that the current Bible is "yours".....I thought it was God's word.
I also know that not a word of it was penned by any Catholics.

Sadder still was the fact that the Catholic church kept the word of God to themselves, punishing with death any who dared to read it.....with the result that no one had access to the scriptures in order to check and see if what they were being taught was true. Keeping the people in ignorance of the scriptures has always worked well for the church.

In any event, I wish for you all the blessing and joy of Easter which are yours even though you are unable to acknowledge them.

Since it was an offense to God to even mention the worship of foreign gods (Exodus 23:13)......I'll just remind you that "Easter" is not a word you will find anywhere in the Bible, but was the name of an ancient fertility goddess whose symbols were rabbits and eggs....I fail to understand how this in any way honors Christ.

 

[Deeje]

The Greek word you’re fishing for here is anamnesis. And it means neither “memorial” nor “remembrance.” It literally means “not-forgetting.”

I'm sorry but I just find that really funny......like "not forgetting" doesn't involve memory at all....

The Greek word "anamnēsis" according to Strongs means...."a remembering, recollection."
Not rocket science is it? Jesus asked us to remember his sacrifice because it was his death that paid the ransom, not his resurrection.

That’s why the Eucharist is celebrated, not “observed,” and why it’s celebrated every Sunday, because Sunday is the celebration of the Resurrection.

Well that is what you are told...but I think we all know that Roman Catholicism is basically renamed Roman sun worship. The 'day of the Sun' was already a day to honor their sun god. The Jewish Sabbath was Saturday but somehow it shifted to Sunday so the pagans would feel right at home.

We can see clearly the Babylonian sun wheel in St Peter's Square with the obelisk imported from Egypt that was used to honor Ra, the sun god of that nation. Has no one ever questioned its place there?

Sun worship is seen everywhere in the RCC.

Since when was the bread in the shape of the sun? How does this honor Christ?

Its all there in plain sight....are you blind?

And Easter is the principal day in which the Resurrection is celebrated. You see, the meal is a living within his death and resurrection, and since the celebration of Easter is really only a special calling attention to and immersion in that meal, they are inexorably tied together. You fail to understand the biblical concept and tradition, and thus have presented a theological straw man.

I am afraid that your whole belief system is a strawman. Traditions are what got Israel into trouble.....you don't see history repeating? Nowhere are we commanded to celebrate Jesus' resurrection....only his death. It had to coincide with the Jewish Passover because that was the date of the Last Supper. In Israel, it wasn't the day of an event, but the date that mattered.....you fail to understand just what it is that you are commemorating....and how offensive to God your celebration of Easter is to him. I guess he will have to tell you.....you never listen to us.

 

[sojourner]

I'm sorry but I just find that really funny......like "not forgetting" doesn't involve memory at all.

Of course it does. but it involves memory in a much deeper way than simply a mental snapshot of a past event. Such a memory is rather two-dimensional. It’s a shadow of something that is now gone. But Christ isn’t gone, so why would we need a memory? What we need is to recall — to pull that event into our present so that we enter into it.

The Greek word "anamnēsis" according to Strongs means...."a remembering, recollection

Recollect. See above.

Jesus asked us to remember his sacrifice because it was his death that paid the ransom, not his resurrection

There was no “ransom” to be paid. That’s a bunch of Substitutionary Atonement hooey.

Well that is what you are told...but I think we all know that Roman Catholicism is basically renamed Roman sun worship

I think we know what you’ve been told.

Its all there in plain sight....are you blind?

Are you? Do you not understand that every religion comes from some other earlier religion? Do you not understand that there are tropes common to all religions — Pagan, Jewish, Christian, whatever? What is this twisted need to separate Christianity from all other religions in all aspects? Can you not see that we are all intertwined and inseparable? What’s this obsessive propensity for labeling everything? Jesus eschewed labels; that’s why Christianity exists.

I am afraid that your whole belief system is a strawman. Traditions are what got Israel into trouble.....you don't see history repeating

Traditions should be nothing more than threads to keep past knowledge alive in the present. You would forget what a halo actually is and why it’s important as a religious image. You would forget why the sun is important as a religious image. You would forget why bread and wine are crucial to religious imagery.

you never listen to us.

Why should we? All I’ve seen out of your posts — with very few exception — is revisionist codswallop.

 

[Deeje]

Of course it does. but it involves memory in a much deeper way than simply a mental snapshot of a past event. Such a memory is rather two-dimensional. It’s a shadow of something that is now gone. But Christ isn’t gone, so why would we need a memory? What we need is to recall — to pull that event into our present so that we enter into it.

LOL...When all else fails, move the goalposts.
A "Memorial” is a remembrance as Jesus clearly stated......”keep doing this in remembrance of me”....how is that a difficult concept? Nowhere did he say that about his resurrection, or that we were to incorporate pagan worship in our remembrance of Jesus’ sacrifice. How insulting to a God who demands exclusive worship.

Do you not understand that every religion comes from some other earlier religion? Do you not understand that there are tropes common to all religions — Pagan, Jewish, Christian, whatever? What is this twisted need to separate Christianity from all other religions in all aspects? Can you not see that we are all intertwined and inseparable? What’s this obsessive propensity for labeling everything? Jesus eschewed labels; that’s why Christianity exists.

Do you understand that the “wheat and the weeds” were to be separated at the time of the end......and guess what....they would be nothing alike. The reapers would identify the wheat as clearly distinct from the weeds because of their “differences” not their “similarities”.

Traditions should be nothing more than threads to keep past knowledge alive in the present. You would forget what a halo actually is and why it’s important as a religious image. You would forget why the sun is important as a religious image. You would forget why bread and wine are crucial to religious imagery.

Jesus said that human traditions made God’s word invalid...and we can clearly see why....any tradition that can be traced back to some disgusting false worship has NO place in among God’s people. As Paul so clearly stated....

“Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
(2 Corinthians 6:14-18 - ESV)
We are to touch nothing that is spiritually “unclean’...that which is connected to false worship.....Christendom’s worship is full of it....
and you seem OK with that.....

Why should we? All I’ve seen out of your posts — with very few exception — is revisionist codswallop.

Well that makes two of us....all I see in your posts is adherence to your own version of “codswallop”. You go even further than Christendom does in your excursion....but hey, it’s your trip. We will all know where our journey ends, soon enough I guess....

 

[sojourner]

A Memorial” is a remembrance as Jesus clearly stated......”keep doing this in remembrance of me”....how is that a difficult concept? Nowhere did he say that about his resurrection, or that we were to incorporate pagan worship in our remembrance of Jesus’ sacrifice

Except, as I stated, the word “remembrance” doesn’t connote the depth of meaning of anamnesis. If you were an actual Greek scholar snd not just a Strong’s surfer, you’d know that.

Do you understand that the “wheat and the weeds” were to be separated at the time of the end......and guess what....they would be nothing alike. The reapers would identify the wheat as clearly distinct from the weeds because of their “differences” not their “similarities”.

Do you understand that the parable sent talking about religious differences? If you were an actual Matthew scholar, you’d know that.

Jesus said that human traditions made God’s word invalid...and we can clearly see why....any tradition that can be traced back to some disgusting false worship has NO place in among God’s people. As Paul so clearly stated...

...and yet it can be clearly shown that the “Lord’s Supper” is taken directly from the Roman dinner party.

We are to touch nothing that is spiritually “unclean’...that which is connected to false worship.....Christendom’s worship is full of it....
and you seem OK with that

So do you, if you observe the “Lord’s Supper.”

 

[Deeje]

Except, as I stated, the word “remembrance” doesn’t connote the depth of meaning of anamnesis. If you were an actual Greek scholar snd not just a Strong’s surfer, you’d know that.

Oh the depth of Jesus' statement to observe a memorial of his death by sharing bread and wine among his anointed "joint heirs" as a symbol of God's new covenant with them. These emblems would remind them of the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice in our behalf. What deeper meaning would you like to add.....?
I am not anointed for rulership or priesthood in heaven, so I am more than happy to be a subject of the Kingdom on earth where God put us all in the first place. You may have grander ideas about your destination. I don't.

Do you understand that the parable sent talking about religious differences? If you were an actual Matthew scholar, you’d know that.

So you have your own interpretation of the "wheat and the weeds" too eh? I'll wager its nothing like what we believe.
Its talking about fake Christianity being sown by the devil in the same "field" as Jesus sowed the "wheat". Only at the harvest time can there be reaping because the two were to grow together until then.....but of course you know about "bearded darnel"...?...and why he used it in that parable?

...and yet it can be clearly shown that the “Lord’s Supper” is taken directly from the Roman dinner party.

The Last Supper was a Roman dinner party? Nothing to do with the Jewish Passover then...? Did you write your own Bible? I am beginning to wonder..... You certainly have some very whacked out ideas....are these beliefs of yours exclusive to Sharmans? I don't recall ever hearing them from anyone but you....

So do you, if you observe the “Lord’s Supper.”

We keep doing what Jesus commanded, every year on the correct anniversary we hold our Memorial, and it has nothing whatever to do with an ancient fertility goddess named Easter or chocolate rabbits or eggs.

A Roman dinner party...? seriously?

 

[metis]

Except, as I stated, the word “remembrance” doesn’t connote the depth of meaning of anamnesis. If you were an actual Greek scholar snd not just a Strong’s surfer, you’d know that.


Do you understand that the parable sent talking about religious differences? If you were an actual Matthew scholar, you’d know that.

...and yet it can be clearly shown that the “Lord’s Supper” is taken directly from the Roman dinner party.

So do you, if you observe the “Lord’s Supper.”

Ya always gotta remember that the JW's are the only ones who believe that only they do everything right.

 

[sojourner]

What deeper meaning would you like to add

See above. I’ve stated the intended meaning at least twice. As Someone we both know once said, “you have eyes but do not see.” I’d amend that to will not see. But if you want to wallow in non-scholasticism, that’s your bidness.

I am not anointed for rulership or priesthood in heaven, so I am more than happy to be a subject of the Kingdom on earth where God put us all in the first place

This is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with how one responsibly understands ancient and foreign texts.

So you have your own interpretation of the "wheat and the weeds" too eh? I'll wager its nothing like what we believe

I have an interpretation based on an exegesis of the text. Which is nothing like what you believe. See below.

Its talking about fake Christianity being sown by the devil in the same "field" as Jesus sowed the "wheat

Nope. How could Jesus be talking about “fake Christians” when there were no Christians? This is the kind of nonsense a non-exegetical approach fosters.

The Last Supper was a Roman dinner party? Nothing to do with the Jewish Passover then

That’s not what I said. I said it was based on the Roman dinner party, that is, it’s form is that of the symposium.

You certainly have some very whacked out ideas....are these beliefs of yours exclusive to Sharmans

So now you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks?

I don't recall ever hearing them from anyone but you

That’s because you don’t hang out in scholastic circles, and you refuse to consider other viewpoints.

We keep doing what Jesus commanded, every year on the correct anniversary we hold our Memorial, and it has nothing whatever to do with an ancient fertility goddess named Easter or chocolate rabbits or eggs

Neither does the weekly Eucharist.

A Roman dinner party...? seriously

Do a little cultural anthropology into ancient Palestine at the time of Jesus.

 

[metis]

Do a little cultural anthropology into ancient Palestine at the time of Jesus.

And that's a good point, as the Last Supper was not unusual in terms of the symbols used and the idea of sacrifice and blessings, but what was and is "unusual" about it is that all of these symbols became used to commemorate and celebrate Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

[sojourner]

And that's a good point, as the Last Supper was not unusual in terms of the symbols used and the idea of sacrifice and blessings, but what was and is "unusual" about it is that all of these symbols became used to commemorate and celebrate Jesus in the Eucharist.

It’s not just the symbols of bread and wine. Although the libation common to the symposium is closely described by Paul in his references to the Last Supper. It’s also the architecture of the Mass that reflects the architecture of the symposium.

Here’s an excellent book on the subject, if you’re interested in such things: From Symposium to Eucharist

 

[Deeje]

See above. I’ve stated the intended meaning at least twice. As Someone we both know once said, “you have eyes but do not see.” I’d amend that to will not see. But if you want to wallow in non-scholasticism, that’s your

Oh, I’m terribly sorry......I forgot about your credentials. Am I to bow to your superior scholastic education?

Did Jesus bow to the scholastic education of the Pharisees? I wonder why he personally chose uneducated men to become the foundations of his kingdom? Nothing to do with the fact that the religious education offered by the Pharisees was useless to Jesus because they had completely lost the plot? He warned that it would happen again.....and it did.

This is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with how one responsibly understands ancient and foreign texts.

The truth is more valuable than religious pomposity. Jesus proved that. How 'responsibly' did the Pharisees understand and teach their charges?......it wasn't the truth, but their twisted interpretation of the word of God. Did Jesus have a good thing to say about those men? History was to repeat. We see “Pharisees” again in charge of the “church”.

Where is Jesus in these pictures? I can assure you that he is not present. This is NOT the Christianity he started...nothing even close to it.

No images were to be used in worship...second commandment.

I ask again...are you blind?

I have an interpretation based on an exegesis of the text. Which is nothing like what you believe. See below.

Whose exegesis are you following? A Church with an untarnished history? Ones who adopted Roman sun worship and passed it off to the masses as "Christianity"? Are you serious? Why is the bread in the shape of the sun when the scriptures clearly state that Jesus "broke" the bread?

Where does the Bible ever call Mary "the Mother of God"? Where is she featured throughout Jesus ministry?
The truth is she hardly rates a mention. She was chosen by God to bear his son in human form, but she warrants no adoration in the "goddess" status that your church gives to her.

How do you know that Mary or Jesus look anything like the images you use in worship?

Please don't pretend this isn't idolatry......

Exodus 20:4-5 from the Jewish Tanakh....
"4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5 You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me".

Again is that a difficult thing to comprehend? What part of "you shall not make for your self a graven image" does the RCC not understand?

How could Jesus be talking about “fake Christians” when there were no Christians? This is the kind of nonsense a non-exegetical approach fosters.

You never cease to amaze me!......what do you think Jesus was teaching in that parable?...it was about the future of Christianity.....who were the 'sons of the Kingdom' sown by Christ? What were the seeds sown by the devil and where did he plant them? What is the "harvest" that sees the devil's seed destroyed by the appointed reapers?
It takes a special kind of blindness...(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Are you familiar with the "weed" that Jesus was speaking about? "Bearded darnel" is a blight to farmers in the Middle East because they call it "wheat's evil twin"...can you guess why?

That’s not what I said. I said it was based on the Roman dinner party, that is, it’s form is that of the symposium.

Who on earth told you that? The scriptures tell us that Jesus organized his last supper in the manner that all Jews were commanded to celebrate the Passover. How that has any connection to a Roman dinner party is beyond me. You introduce things from out of left field and wonder why people respond to you the way they do....

So now you’re resorting to ad hominem attacks?

You leave me gasping at times with the nonsense you write.....sorry if I express that, but promoting false doctrine in the guise of some privilege of your religious education is not quite convincing. Jesus cut through that nonsense with the Pharisees as well. Their teachings he said were "leaven"...corrupt and death dealing to those who followed them. (Matthew 16:6) Your ideas seem to go way beyond your Catholic education.....are you a fringe dweller in Catholicism?

That’s because you don’t hang out in scholastic circles, and you refuse to consider other viewpoints.

There you go again....what is with your constant reference to your scholastic education, like it means anything to anyone but you. Did the Pharisees' education mean anything to Jesus? Nice pedestal you have yourself perched on....be careful, it's a long way to fall.

Neither does the weekly Eucharist.

There was no "weekly eucharist" in first century Christianity. The Lord's Supper replaced the Jewish Passover because it was virtually the same memorial as the Jews held only once a year, on the same date. Jesus is the actual Passover Lamb whose blood saves those who figuratively put it on their doorpost.
How many "suppers" have Christ's true followers celebrated since his death.....? Thousands. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

Do a little cultural anthropology into ancient Palestine at the time of Jesus.

And that will lead me to better conclusions than God's word? You obviously think so. I trust the Bible to give me the truth.....you should try it sometime.....

 

[sojourner]

Oh, I’m terribly sorry......I forgot about your credentials. Am I to bow to your superior scholastic education?

Did Jesus bow to the scholastic education of the Pharisees? I wonder why he personally chose uneducated men to become the foundations of his kingdom? Nothing to do with the fact that the religious education offered by the Pharisees was useless to Jesus because they had completely lost the plot? He warned that it would happen again.....and it did.



The truth is more valuable than religious pomposity. Jesus proved that. How 'responsibly' did the Pharisees understand and teach their charges?......it wasn't the truth, but their twisted interpretation of the word of God. Did Jesus have a good thing to say about those men? History was to repeat. We see “Pharisees” again in charge of the “church”.

Where is Jesus in these pictures? I can assure you that he is not present. This is NOT the Christianity he started...nothing even close to it.

No images were to be used in worship...second commandment.

I ask again...are you blind?



Whose exegesis are you following? A Church with an untarnished history? Ones who adopted Roman sun worship and passed it off to the masses as "Christianity"? Are you serious? Why is the bread in the shape of the sun when the scriptures clearly state that Jesus "broke" the bread?

Where does the Bible ever call Mary "the Mother of God"? Where is she featured throughout Jesus ministry?
The truth is she hardly rates a mention. She was chosen by God to bear his son in human form, but she warrants no adoration in the "goddess" status that your church gives to her.

How do you know that Mary or Jesus look anything like the images you use in worship?

Please don't pretend this isn't idolatry......

Exodus 20:4-5 from the Jewish Tanakh....
"4 You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5 You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me".

Again is that a difficult thing to comprehend? What part of "you shall not make for your self a graven image" does the RCC not understand?


You never cease to amaze me!......what do you think Jesus was teaching in that parable?...it was about the future of Christianity.....who were the 'sons of the Kingdom' sown by Christ? What were the seeds sown by the devil and where did he plant them? What is the "harvest" that sees the devil's seed destroyed by the appointed reapers?
It takes a special kind of blindness...(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

Are you familiar with the "weed" that Jesus was speaking about? "Bearded darnel" is a blight to farmers in the Middle East because they call it "wheat's evil twin"...can you guess why?


Who on earth told you that? The scriptures tell us that Jesus organized his last supper in the manner that all Jews were commanded to celebrate the Passover. How that has any connection to a Roman dinner party is beyond me. You introduce things from out of left field and wonder why people respond to you the way they do....


You leave me gasping at times with the nonsense you write.....sorry if I express that, but promoting false doctrine in the guise of some privilege of your religious education is not quite convincing. Jesus cut through that nonsense with the Pharisees as well. Their teachings he said were "leaven"...corrupt and death dealing to those who followed them. (Matthew 16:6) Your ideas seem to go way beyond your Catholic education.....are you a fringe dweller in Catholicism?


There you go again....what is with your constant reference to your scholastic education, like it means anything to anyone but you. Did the Pharisees' education mean anything to Jesus? Nice pedestal you have yourself perched on....be careful, it's a long way to fall.


There was no "weekly eucharist" in first century Christianity. The Lord's Supper replaced the Jewish Passover because it was virtually the same memorial as the Jews held only once a year, on the same date. Jesus is the actual Passover Lamb whose blood saves those who figuratively put it on their doorpost.
How many "suppers" have Christ's true followers celebrated since his death.....? Thousands. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)


And that will lead me to better conclusions than God's word? You obviously think so. I trust the Bible to give me the truth.....you should try it sometime.....

I’m sorry that you appear to be so caught up in your own misunderstanding and religious entitlement that you end up lashing out at anyone who does not believe as you do. I’m sorry that you abhor scholarship so much; that level of scholasticism has given you a Bible that you can read. How much you appear to think you know! And how little you appear to understand nuances of the texts and the community that brought them to you. Your post here is so off track, it borders on conspiracy theory masquerading as “common sense.” The only rebuttal you appear to have to my arguments is ad hominem, calling my chosen spiritual path into question, and dismissing wholesale scholastic findings without offering any scholastic work of your own to back up that dismissal.

 

[Deeje]

You know @sojourner......its what you ignore that really tells your sorry story. You have not addressed a single thing I said....pictures are worth a thousand words......all you did was defend your own scholasticism as if it means something to anyone but yourself. Can you not answer questions about your own faith? Where is your defense?

Are the things you believe even accepted by the Roman Catholic church? I have never see any Catholic person proclaim what you do....are you a fringe dweller in the Catholic faith? Its not a difficult question unless you are too embarrassed to answer it.

 

[metis]

It’s not just the symbols of bread and wine. Although the libation common to the symposium is closely described by Paul in his references to the Last Supper. It’s also the architecture of the Mass that reflects the architecture of the symposium.

Here’s an excellent book on the subject, if you’re interested in such things: From Symposium to Eucharist

Thanks for the recommendation, and I'll check it out.

 

[sojourner]

You know @sojourner......its what you ignore that really tells your sorry story. You have not addressed a single thing I said....pictures are worth a thousand words......all you did was defend your own scholasticism as if it means something to anyone but yourself. Can you not answer questions about your own faith? Where is your defense?

Are the things you believe even accepted by the Roman Catholic church? I have never see any Catholic person proclaim what you do....are you a fringe dweller in the Catholic faith? Its not a difficult question unless you are too embarrassed to answer it.

You know, your whole argument is like this:

“Do you see this picture?”

“Are you blind? Acts 2 clearly says “the disciples were all in one Accord.” This is NOT an Accord. If you drive anything other than an Accord, you’re apostate and are being misled by the Dark One. You’re not a Real Christian TM.”

That’s your entire argument. It doesn’t have anything to do with my religious affiliation or spiritual practices. It has to do with your abominable straw man.

 

[metis]

@SOJOUNER

About a year ago, one of the JW's that you're dealing with repeatedly stated that Catholics worship the sun. I then posted quotes and links to several Catholic websites to show that to do as such is totally against Catholic canon law, as worshipping any object, including the sun, is. So, did this stop this person? Nope.

What they believe in is what the Governing Body tells them to believe in and then parrot, and dishonesty is clearly not a barrier for them to do just that. It's all about the "tribe"-- thus not what the Truth may be. It's the "we v they" mindset that portrays the "they" as being "Christendom" and the "we" as "Christianity", and the "we" is them only.

It's very frustrating as I well know, but one big hope is that enough people will see through it and not be swayed with their repeated attempts at proselytizing in such disingenuous ways here at RF and elsewhere.

 

[sojourner]

@SOJOUNER

About a year ago, one of the JW's that you're dealing with repeatedly stated that Catholics worship the sun. I then posted quotes and links to several Catholic websites to show that to do as such is totally against Catholic canon law, as worshipping any object, including the sun, is. So, did this stop this person? Nope.

What they believe in is what the Governing Body tells them to believe in and then parrot, and dishonesty is clearly not a barrier for them to do just that. It's all about the "tribe"-- thus not what the Truth may be. It's the "we v they" mindset that portrays the "they" as being "Christendom" and the "we" as "Christianity", and the "we" is them only.

It's very frustrating as I well know, but one big hope is that enough people will see through it and not be swayed with their repeated attempts at proselytizing in such disingenuous ways here at RF and elsewhere.

Thank you for saying that.

 

[sojourner]

You know @sojourner......its what you ignore that really tells your sorry story. You have not addressed a single thing I said....pictures are worth a thousand words......all you did was defend your own scholasticism as if it means something to anyone but yourself. Can you not answer questions about your own faith? Where is your defense?

Are the things you believe even accepted by the Roman Catholic church? I have never see any Catholic person proclaim what you do....are you a fringe dweller in the Catholic faith? Its not a difficult question unless you are too embarrassed to answer it.

I don’t care to talk about it, because it is very sacred to me, and, judging by your assumption of my “embarrassment” (which is false; I am not embarrassed in the least by who I am, although you believe that I must be, since I don’t believe like you), I feel as though I have to protect it from your ridicule of it. I will not open my inner self to that violence. Period.

I will say this: you disparage anything outside your understanding of the Faith as “pagan.” That word merely means “on the fringes.” You like to think of yourself as being “in the inner circle” of the Christian life, and condemn others as being “outside” that circle of “true Christianity” — on the “fringes.” But, Jesus was on the fringes of the religious inner circle of his day, and he hung out with those who were on the social fringes. Being on the fringe is neither a bad nor a shameful place to be; the household of the faithful has always thrived best on the fringes. The Faith was “Pagan” from its Judaic heritage.

Your posts claim you to be on the fringes of “Christendom,” yet they disparage others for being on the fringes of your brand of religion and use the pagan stance as a shameful place to be. That’s because your posts obfuscate the true meaning of that term, and conflate it with “evil.” The attitude of your posts is firmly within the inner circle of religious entitlement, just as the religious authorities of Jesus’ time were entitled. And your posts would crucify me just as surely as those authorities sought to do away with Jesus and his spiritual descendants through casting aspersions on their legitimacy. Your posts speak out both sides of the mouth in that regard. It’s disingenuous.

So, no! I will not discuss my faith life with you. Suffice to say that your nomenclature of the church and of me as “pagan” is preferable to being in the inner circle of your righteous entitlement.