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Featured Christians Only: Why Easter is NOT the Way to Honor Christ.

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    On the night before his death, Jesus said to his faithful apostles.... “Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” (Luke 22:19) He took a loaf of unleavened bread and a cup of unfortified wine to symbolize his sinless flesh and the blood that he was about to shed for the benefit of those who obey his teachings. He then passed these emblems around to his apostles to symbolize the fact that they would share in his death and resurrection in the same way in the future. His death would pave the way for entry into the heavenly realm when he returned as he promised, to take them "home".

    As this is a memorial to the one who offered his life for us, we should honor him for his sacrifice, without which, none of us have an opportunity to gain everlasting life.

    Do we know the date of this anniversary? Yes we do....according to the Jewish calendar, it is Nisan 14 the same date as the Jewish Passover which this year falls on 27th March 2021, after sundown.

    Most in Christendom know this time of year as Easter....but this word is not even found in the Bible....so where does it come from and why is it associated with the time of year that Christians are supposed to honor Jesus Christ?

    Both Jesus and the apostle Paul predicted that Christianity would be infiltrated by false teachings. (Matthew 13:24-25; 36-40; 2 Timothy 4:3)
    After the death of Jesus’ apostles, the idea took root that it would be appropriate to hold a fast (now known as Lent), followed by a feast, at Passover season. Somehow this became thought of as a way to commemorate Christ’s resurrection....something that Christ did not command.

    The 40 day fast took place when Jesus was baptized, not when he died.

    Easter’s adoption as a festival thus was not Bible based. In fact, scholars claim that the very word Easter is of Anglo-Saxon origin, referring to the springtime. During that season, the ancients thought the sun was reborn after months of winter death.

    Other terms for the festival, such as pâques or pasqua, are derived from the ancient Hebrew word peʹsach, or “passover.” Christendom argues that Easter replaces this Jewish festival. But this ignores the fact that Jesus replaced the Passover, not with Easter, but with his memorial supper.

    Where then did these Easter customs originate? It has been said that the church incorporated these pagan customs and celebrations into the Christianity in order to attract the pagans, somehow Christianizing pagan practices, to bring the pagans to Christ....but is that what Jesus taught in the Bible?

    The apostle Paul wrote....
    "For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? . . Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever?.... ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing.”’(2 Corinthians 6:14-18)
    There can be no fusion of true worship with false worship because its an unclean contamination of something that is holy to God.

    So does the incorporation of these "unclean" practices really honor Christ or his sacrifice?
    Easter customs—eggs, bunnies, and bonfires—are therefore not cleansed by being practiced by Christians. Rather, they defile anyone practicing them. You end up paganizing the Christianity....and what is the point of that? If the pagans do not want to come to Christ on his terms, he will not accept them on theirs.

    Israel's history was filled with excursions into false religious practices and God punished them accordingly.
    How will it go for Christendom adopting pagan celebrations, putting a thin veneer of Christianity over it and passing them off as acceptable to God?

    Will he look with any favor on these things, given their origins?
     
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  2. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Ash nazg durbatulûk

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    I initially intended to reply to each and every point but I came to view such an exercise as redundant. I think brevity would suit this discussion better especially given that I don't think we are meant to debate in the DIR.

    The problem is one of presuppositions. Sure, if you hold the view that anything not explicitly spelled out in the Bible constitutes false worship then you have a strong point. But this is not the view of historical Christianity. The historical view claims that Christ established a Church and gave the Apostles a teaching authority which in turn was passed down to the bishops.

    Divine revelation then is not limited to what is explicit in the Bible, but it is also found in the Sacred Tradition established by the Apostles and their successors. The observance of Easter is a part of Sacred Tradition and thus it carries the weight of divine revelation. Far from being false worship it is an obligation of true worship.

    This is not to say that our cultural associations with Easter are themselves divine revelation. The association of Easter with bunnies and chocolate eggs are merely cultural accoutrements. Do these accoutrements detract from the sacredness of the liturgical observance? I answer no. Nor are they evidence of implicit paganism except in the feverish imaginations of puritan kill-joys.

    The thing is Deeje, you lob accusations of false teaching at 'Christendom' but this assumes the validity of your sect which itself has an embarrassing history of failed end-times predictions. If the Jehovah's Witnesses really had the inspiration of the Holy Spirit I would not expect such an abysmal prophetic record. In my view you do not hold the ancient faith. You hold a 19th century faith which simply asserts its own authority based on nothing but the mere claim to unique insight. The mere claim everything that came before it is an apostasy from true teaching. Well, guess what, the Mormons also claim that!

    Am I to accept on your mere say-so that the Holy Spirit abandoned the Church for nearly two millennia? And even if I did, why not Joseph Smith over Charles Taze Russell? Why trust your group over others who make similar claims?
     
    #2 Musing Bassist, Mar 20, 2021
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  3. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    jw עדי יהווה
    you could always test and see. read the bible ,compare scripture . question the answers you have grownup hearing .
     
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  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus taught that there are Two Commandments, namely love of God and also love of all humankind, but if one pays attention to what the JW's teach, there are myriads of "commandments" that relate only to that which they've been taught by the Governing Body. They teach that only they know how to "honor Christ" properly and supposedly do as such, which is why all other denominations they refer to as being "Christendom"-- not true Christians.

    Jesus said he'd guide his Church until the end of time, and yet the JW's don't qualify since they weren't even formed until the 19th century. Did Jesus and the Holy Spirit just forget about Jesus' promise? Maybe the Holy Spirit took a 1800 year snooze?

    And then the JW's quote the Bible. Gee, where did that come from? Whom selected the canon? Was it the JW's themselves? Nope.

    And then they condemn "pagan celebrations", but using their "logic" even Christianity must be classified as being "pagan" since it uses "pagan" symbols, such as the bread and wine that Jews and some other in the Middle East used to stand for body and blood. Judaism, much like Christianity, "borrowed" ideas from other sources, including even names for God. Thus, using the JW's reference to things "pagan", much of what's found in the N.T. must also be considered to be "pagan". Religions don't evolve in a vacuum, thus all religions have "pagan" symbols and rituals that they adopted from other cultures.

    All Christian denominations worship God and praise Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but that's not good enough for them. Why? Because their Governing Body has brainwashed them into believing all sorts of things that really don't relate to Jesus' Two Commandments. It has taught them that only they are the "true Christians".

    I'm going to services tomorrow like many here at RF will do, and my conscience allows me to try and connect with God in the best way that I can. I ain't perfect-- my church ain't perfect-- but I'll try nevertheless.

    Shalom.
     
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  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't see anything wrong with celebrating the resurrection of Christ. I celebrate it every day.
     
    #5 LightofTruth, Mar 20, 2021
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  6. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    which is more important , his death or resurrection ?
     
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  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If it wasn't for his death, God could not have condemned the sin in the flesh. Which Paul says for that reason there in now no condemnation for those in Christ. (Rom 8:1-3)

    And if he was not raised from the dead then faith is worthless. And so is hope. (1 Cor 15:16-18)
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The trouble is, those successors did not remain on the path that Christ established. Like Judaism before it, apostasy was foretold by Jesus and the apostles.....who can pretend it didn't happen? (2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Acts 20:29-30)

    Didn't Jesus condemn the Pharisees for putting "tradition" before the word of God? (Matthew 15:7-9)

    Easter is nothing more than the worship of an ancient fertility goddess, carried over into a weakened form of the Christian faith that was exploited by an astute Roman Emperor intent on solving the dilemma of his divided empire. He used Christianity to consolidate his subjects into one state religion, but sacrificed the Christian faith in the process, confirming what Christ had warned about. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42)
    They didn't even change the name or the customs. Nothing about Easter honors Christ.

    According to The Catholic Encyclopedia: The custom may have its origin in paganism, for a great many pagan customs, celebrating the return of spring, gravitated to Easter. The egg is the emblem of the germinating life of early spring. . . .“The Easter Rabbit lays the eggs, for which reason they are hidden in a nest or in the garden. The rabbit is a pagan symbol and has always been an emblem of fertility.
    It is a fusion of Christianity and false worship. Not a good mix according to scripture. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    We have no embarrassing history....there has never been failed "end times" prophesy because the prophesy is still to be fulfilled. Its the fulfillment of the same prophesy that we have been hoping for all along. Getting the timing wrong is not new, nor does it alter anything. Even the apostles got it wrong as Jesus was ascending to heaven....(Acts 1:6) God knows when it ends.....we are given a "sign"....not a date. (Matthew 24:3)

    Our logo is the Watchtower for a good reason.....the one standing guard warns of something approaching and the city gets ready......but if its a false alarm, we go back to business as usual.....
    Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" and that is what we have done, (Matthew 24:43-44)...better than going to sleep completely, [​IMG] like some have.

    There will be a very good way to find out soon I think.....we'll just allow Jesus to do his job. He will sort the "sheep from the goats".

    Well, you see, it's up to you and me to determine who is teaching the truth and who isn't for ourselves....God simply allows the devil to sow his weeds and whoever wants to join them, he will permit them to choose whatever they wish for their own reasons. Don't forget that deception is the devil's stock in trade....he is a master at giving people what they want.
    If he is the one that sowed the weeds, then we need to have our wits about us and study the Bible carefully, not allowing any humans to pull the wool over our eyes. In the end we all get what we deserve. But according to Jesus, it will come as a big shock for "many".....but too late. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    The only ones who decide what we believe and what we reject...is us.
     
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  9. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
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    **MOVED TO SAME FAITH DEBATES**

    Please note that this thread is for Christians only. Posts by non-Christians are subject to moderation under Rule 10.
     
  10. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Ash nazg durbatulûk

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    Not true. Christ promised the Church would endure until the end of time. To claim that the Church apostatized by false teachings renders Christ's promise bankrupt.

    Matthew 16:18 NIV
    And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

    On the other hand.

    2 Thessalonians 2:15 NIV
    So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
    Other translations render 'teachings' as traditions.​

    KJV
    Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    In either case tradition is not a bad thing. And as we see in the above quotation, not everything was written down in epistles. (Yet alone in epistles that would go on to be preserved in scripture).

    Concerning the Pharisees. The problem wasn't necessarily their fastidious observance of tradition. It was their tendency to a self-righteous legalism. This is seen most acutely in the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican. We should take that parable to heart because it is a common trap of religion, wherein by observance we become infatuated with our own virtue and consequently lose charity for others.

    First. Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion. That happened under Theodosius.

    Second. Constantine had no input in the decisions of the Church. IIRC Constantine urged the bishops to compromise with Arius which was rejected by said bishops. Had Constantine been has powerful as you claim the creed would have ended up reading "homoiousios with the Father" over "homoousios with the Father".

    The claim that the men who only years beforehand were willing to go to their deaths rather than compromise their beliefs had now become willing pawns of an emperor is a baseless accusation.

    The observance of Easter Sunday commentates the resurrection of Christ. Which is nothing less than the very premise on which our faith stands. That the cultural festivities associated with Easter may in some cases have pre-Christain origins (which is speculated but not proved) is not denied. What is denied is the notion that those festivities constitute acts of pagan worship. No more than using the Latin script (which is pre-Christain) is evidence of implicit 'paganism' of the languages that use it. (Such as English). I am saying that even if we accept that notion that eggs as a symbol of spring has a pagan origin, the use of them during Easter is so far removed from anything resembling religious worship that to call it paganism is simply asinine.

    Do you really believe that hiding chocolate eggs around the house for your children to find constitutes an act of worship? Do you believe that my giving my nephews chocolate bunnies is an act of pagan piety? To be honest with you. It seems to me calling something 'pagan' is just a buzzword justification for what is at its core a baseless cultic opposition to what you call 'Christendom'.

    The Watch Tower Society has made numerous predictions all of which failed. It can play dumb, 'reinterpret' or insist that it was 'misunderstood' all it wants.

    Yes, but it is presumption to assume you're among the sheep. No one is assured final perseverance.

    Philippians 2:12
    Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
    You should take you own words to heart. As how sure can you be that you're not among the deceived?

    I have nothing against you nor do I doubt your sincerity. If you think the Jehovah's Witnesses have the only credible reading of Christianity then that is your conviction. But remember you're not the only one with convictions.
     
    #10 Musing Bassist, Mar 21, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  11. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    Jesus also said he would leave behind a comforter, or the spirit of truth, who would be with them, forever. Christianity was not supposed to be a museum religion carved in stone. It was supposed to alive and evolving like life. This is why a spirit was left. If Israel had this spirit in the Old Testament, it too would have evolved like a living thing. But since the spirit was sporadic, only the best of the best was preserved and change was very slow often after the fact.

    Another difference between Israel and Christianity was the path of Israel was designed to exclude; clan and clique. This has not changed. Christianity was designed to grow and be more inclusive, which requires compromises that do not alter the fundamental truths of Jesus.

    There is a difference in the inner man and the outer man The outer man is superficial and contains all the cultural trimming which change with time and fads. This is only a shell or facade of the heavenly things.

    The inner man is more timeless, and this did not change all that much. Going from caves to cathedrals changed the outer expression of he church, but it did not alter the basic message of salvation and forgiveness of sins. The change to cathedrals may have altered the fear of persecution, into one of confidence in social acceptance. This, in turn, brought to light old concerns about arrogance and sharing, which was in the original message. In the caves, nobody was too confident and this lesson lived may not have been considered as often.
     
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Please understand why I posted this thread....it was not to bad mouth Christendom, but to show people exactly what it is that they are doing when they celebrate Easter....and how the introduction of pagan elements introduced from false worship have no place in Christianity.

    Sorry about the length of this but I wanted to address your points.....I'll break it up...

    The "church" was the congregation of Christ's followers built on his teachings, and conveyed after his death by the apostles. Peter was not the "Rock"...Jesus was. The church lost its way when men began to add things and borrow things from other belief systems. Bit by bit the corruption took place as the weeds that Jesus warned about, kept multiplying and choking out the wheat.

    Nowhere in scripture will you find the core teachings of Roman Catholicism.

    There is no triune deity who is nameless.
    There is no immortal soul.
    There is no hell of eternal torment, or purgatory.
    There is no "Mary Mother of God".
    There was no highly decorated 'temple' with expensive trappings where the poor and sick were on their doorstep, being ignored.
    There were no "saints" chosen by man after supposed miracles.
    There were no infant baptisms with a sprinkling of water, gaining involuntary members for the church.
    There was no liturgy or ritual.
    No fancy titles or distinct clothing or headgear.
    No Pope, and no gold inlaid palace for him to occupy.
    The list goes on and on.....NONE of these things were taught by Christ or his apostles, but these beliefs have been around so long that no one questions them.

    As an escapee from the Anglican church (which in some orders is as close to Catholicism as you can get) I didn't question them either....but as I got older , things just didn't add up. I saw a vast contrast between what the Lord Jesus taught and what was being done in and by my church. I began to question them, and never received satisfying answers....only excuses. I simply wanted to know the truth.
     
  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is an interesting point actually.....

    The word "tradition" here is "paradosis" and it has an interesting meaning....
    From Strongs.....
    1. giving up, giving over
      1. the act of giving up

      2. the surrender of cities
    2. a giving over which is done by word of mouth or in writing, i.e. tradition by instruction, narrative, precept, etc.
      1. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching."
    So what does this word mean? And is it always a positive thing? Are we "giving up" one belief for another? And if so how can we tell which belief is true?

    Jesus used this word to castigate the Pharisees, saying that they had "invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition G3862." (Matthew 15:6)

    "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition G3862 of men.” (Mark 7:8)

    Taking the meaning of that word into consideration, what is the Bible telling us about "tradition"?

    Its saying that there are two different sources of "tradition"....one from Jesus and the apostles....and one that is the concoction of men. So how can we tell the difference?

    Jesus told us how. He said...
    My Father is glorified in this, that you keep bearing much fruit and prove yourselves my disciples.” (John 15:8)

    "16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits."


    So all we need to do is examine their "fruitage" or their works. What kind of people does our church produce? In all things they should reflect the teachings of Christ and his apostles. Correct?

    So lets go back to those early days of "the church" whose works and teachings and traditions you uphold.
    How far back do we have to go before we encounter dissension and discord. And what about the Inquisition? What power did "the church" attain so that it held a virtual dictatorship over even the rulers of the land, who would hardly make a move without their consultation?

    Did Christ occupy the position of "Pontifex Maximus" and tell the kings how to do their job? What is the origin of the Pope's title, "Pontiff"? Is it even "Christian"? Research will reveal that it is a pagan Roman title for the High Priest of their religion....nothing whatever to do with being the "Vicar of Christ".

    In what way did the Popes reflect Christ's teachings in how they behaved? Do we know what happens to humans once they attain power over others? Corruption soon follows....and the activities of "the church" went from bad to unconscionable.

    Centuries of tyranny and bloodshed followed until a brave Catholic Priest dared to expose the corrupt behavior of his church. Luther was indignant about the sale of indulgences. He knew that men cannot bargain with God. In the autumn of 1517, he wrote his famous 95 theses, accusing the church of financial, doctrinal, and religious abuse. He didn't intend for the Reformation to take place....all he wanted was for them to see what had happened and to correct it.

    And thanks to Johannes Gutenberg’s invention in Germany of the printing press with movable type, Luther’s voice was heard louder and farther than the voices of other reformers who had gone before him.....thus a groundswell of suppressed injustice and anger flared as protesters made their voices heard, and the rest is history. The Roman Catholic church was toppled off its self-made pedestal. And the word of God, taken away from the common people for centuries, was put back into their hands. Only then could they see for themselves how far the "church" had strayed from what the Master had taught.

    Their own interpretation of the Law was the problem. For every Law God gave to Israel, they attached a heap of rigid nit-picking additions until it became a burden that most could not carry. Any wonder that Jesus came to rescue those who were "lost" because of that situation, imposing unnecessary restrictions on the people and making God's word invalid. (Luke 11:45-47)
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    True, Theodosius I banned paganism and imposed Trinitarian “Christianity” as the State religion of the Roman Empire.

    French historian Henri Marrou wrote: “By the end of the reign of Theodosius, Christianity, or to be more precise, orthodox Catholicism, became the official religion of the entire Roman world.” Orthodox Catholicism had replaced true Christianity and had become a “part of the world” by meddling in political matters. That is something Christ and his apostles never did. This "State religion" was vastly different from the religion of Jesus’ early followers, to whom he said: “You are no part of the world.” (John 15:19)

    The Nicean creed is the work of men, not God. Emperor Constantine played an important role in its acceptance. Viewing religious division as a threat to the unity of the empire, he summoned a council of bishops at Nicea in 325 C.E. After two months of debate, the unbaptized emperor decided in favor of the Trinitarian advocates.

    According to the “Encyclopædia Britannica” (Vol. 6, p. 386): “Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the [Nicean] creed, many of them much against their inclination.” Dissenters were banished.

    The whole issue was ridiculous to begin with since there was never a question about the relationship of the Father to his "firstborn" son, until notions of a trinune nature of God began to surface. It was never even in the conversation until the church introduced it. There is actually no such word as "godhead" in the Christian scriptures. There is no trinity in the Bible...even the church says so.

    With the increasing influence of the "weeds", came all manner of compromise. The weakened condition of the Christian faith saw them shedding blood on the battlefield when, if they had followed Christ's' teachings would not have taken up weapons of any description, under any circumstances. (Matthew 5:43-45)

    Paul wrote...
    "For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

    Romans 12:17-21...
    "17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ 20 No, ‘if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

    Is there room for retaliation or bloodshed there? Who then are obeying Christ with actions and not empty words?

    There is no command from Christ to commemorate his resurrection...only to memorialize his death, which is what he was sent to do...to offer his life for obedient mankind.

    Paul wrote at 1 Corinthians 4:6...
    "6 I have applied all this to Apollos and myself for your benefit, brothers and sisters, so that you may learn through us the meaning of the saying, “Nothing beyond what is written,” so that none of you will be puffed up in favor of one against another."

    Going "beyond what is written" has been the downfall of the "church" as it was the downfall of Judaism. It is all the additions that have caused the truth to be lost.
     
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  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    2 Corinthians 6:14-18 answers this question...
    14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial [the devil]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
    “I will live with them and walk among them,
    and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
    17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.
    Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”
    18 And, “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters,
    says the Lord Almighty.


    Easter is touching "unclean" false worship and is trying to harmonize true worship with false.
    Its not how we view things, but how God views them. How he viewed them in the past is how he sees them still.

    The devil "transforms himself into an angel of light" so that his deceptions appear to be harmless.....its a trap. (2 Corinthians 11:14-15)

    It isn't playing dumb....as I said, Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" and that is what we have done. Jesus gave us a "sign"...not a date. There is no doubt that we are deep into the time of the end.....can you not see the world system breaking down with no way to fix any of it? Drastic change is about to take place....but it won't be what most people are expecting. How is your church preparing you?

    Obedience is the prime thing.....salvation comes only to those who fear to displease God by their disobedience to his stated commands. Everything they do has to conform to God's wishes, not their own.

    It is the duty of all Christians to make known "the good news of the Kingdom" right down to "the end". (Matthew 24:14) Where is Christendom seen doing that? (Matthew 10:11-14) Why are they MIA when it was such an important command? (Matthew 28:19-20)

    That is the beauty of this whole object lesson of which we are all a part......we don't know until the judgment if we have "done the will of God". (Matthew 7:21-23) This way God can judge us all on the way we obey his word and his son. There is no hedging our bets or sitting on some imaginary fence......we will all be caught in the act of being our authentic selves. We will not be able to utter a single excuse to the one who is our judge.

    And conviction is a very necessary thing, but what is it based on? Lies or truth? We have to do our homework because we get no second chances in this. We are all telling God right this moment whether we are "sheep" or "goats"....what we are telling ourselves might be different to what we are telling God.
     
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  16. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    I don't celebrate human suffering.

    I however celebrate that four holy bodies still exist in heavens. Four seasons.

    I celebrate life success.

    I don't celebrate its losses.

    When I preach that light is spirit burning as above my head in heavens. Then I say I am grateful for the presence constantly of daylight. It never is rationally lost.

    I also hope that the day...light stays there constantly as once it disappeared and fell from above our heads and killed us all.

    Today knowing that most of us lived before in that historic long ago incident returned to life. I realise how and why we mourn so greatly for life lost. It makes common sense to own a memorium when we all own that memorium historically.

    Consciousness uses recorded heavenly past life realisation.
     
  17. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    They are inseparable, D/R is one event, at least per the theology and christology of John. It has been a dividing issue between conservatives and moderates, was the Liturgy too much Good Friday or too much Easter Sunday. Post Vatican II many of the Crucifixes on or over the Altar were replaced by the empty Cross, until Benedict XVI mandated only the Crucifix on or over the Altar.
     
  18. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Yup, flesh and blood the symbol for life. But not unlike many Jews and Christians there is a refusal to accept the total Jewishness of the man Jesus.
     
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  19. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Wiki defines it this way....
    "the word liturgy (/lɪtərdʒi/), derived from the technical term in ancient Greek (Greek: λειτουργία), leitourgia, which literally means "work for the people" is a literal translation of the two words "litos ergos" or "public service".

    So if it is a "public service" who are the "public" who are 'served' by it?

    How far back does liturgy go in Christianity? I do not see a sign of it from first century scripture. I see set rituals for Jews under the old covenant, but not for Christians under the new covenant, which was prophesied by Jeremiah....
    Jeremiah 31:31-32....
    “Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”

    In this "new covenant" there was nothing like the old one, so why adhere to the former covenant when Jesus had instituted the new one? Why fall back on the old arrangement with substitutes for the Temple (Cathedrals) and an earthly priesthood, which did not exist in the first century. The priesthood was something that Christ's followers would attain only after they died. It was to be served in heaven with their High Priest Jesus Christ who was already there. Why fall back on liturgy and set rituals when the first Christians dispensed with all that and broke away completely from Judaism...realizing that the former things were a "shadow" of things to come, it was no longer necessary to observe the things in the old covenant....

    Colossians 2:16-17...
    "Therefore, do not let anyone judge you about what you eat and drink or about the observance of a festival or of the new moon or of a sabbath. 17 Those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ." (Hebrews 10:1)

    Can you find a single command from God to institute the Synagogue as a place for Jewish worship instead of the Temple? Or was this man's idea? What was the reason? God did not condemn it because that is where Jesus himself spent his early life attending services for worship. But I find no command to base the place for Christian worship on anything in the Jewish arrangement in the apostolic period after Jesus' death.

    The role of Jesus disciples was preaching the message about God's Kingdom and teaching people what Jesus taught them. His last instructions to his apostles were....
    Matthew 28:19-20....
    "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

    Jesus never preempted the old covenant and was obedient to it until his death, but on the night before his execution, he instituted the new covenant and his apostles from that time on carried on the work that he started.

    In my studies I found that the "weeds" that Jesus had warned about were already in evidence even before the apostles died. (2 Thessalonians 2:6-12) The Apostles were there to make sure that nothing was introduced before the time that God allowed for them to take over in the "field". The last books of Christian scripture were still to be penned and after that was complete, (with John writing his Revelation and his three letters at the end of the first century)....then the weeds were no longer restrained. And the rot set in rather quickly after that.

    After a couple of hundred years, this weakened and corrupted form of Christianity was fused with pagan Roman sun worship in the 4th century to address the problems of a divided Roman empire.....this one State religion was a 'one size fits all', keeping both the Christian and pagan elements of the empire satisfied....with each being catered to under the new arrangement....but it was not even close to what Jesus taught.

    In the first century, there was no set ritual or set of repetitive prayers or laws governing what Christians were to do. Paul describes their meetings for worship as occasions for worship, prayer, song and incitement to love and fine works....(Hebrews 10:23-25) Jesus spent his time teaching the apostles what they had to pass on after his death. It was education, not ritual that was the foundation of Christianity.

    For Christ's followers, it was not a case of preaching to the converted in a building.....the "church" was the people (the congregation) and they were instructed to go out and preach about the Kingdom of God to all who would listen. (Matthew 10:11-14) Is the Catholic church noted for its preaching?
     
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