Christians Only - the marriage of secular and spiritual

[Melody]

Please note....this is not a debate about homosexuality, abortion, etc. It is about how Christians merge the secular world with their spiritual world and not about whether it is right, wrong, fair or unfair to a specific group of people.

For awhile now I have been pondering over my responsibility as a Christian in a secular world. I would like to hear the thoughts of other Christians. I am specifically interested in the view of those Christians who believe the Bible is the only authoritative Word of God and who believe the Bible views abortion and homosexuality as a sin. I know you're out there because I've read your views on other threads. Again, we are not debating these two topics.

I am interested in knowing how you reconcile these beliefs with living in a secular world. Where do your beliefs stop and the secular world begins. For example, if there is a bill on the voting roster for deny gays the right to marry, what do you feel your responsibilities are as a Christian? Do your beliefs only pertain to you? Do you avoid the vote because it's secular? Do you believe God is ok with separating what's right for us and other people's "rights" to sin?

I truly am interested in hearing your thoughts and would appreciate some bible verses to back up why you feel that way.

Admin....if same faith debate is not the place for this, feel free to move it. I wanted this to be a same faith discussion where people stated their reasons without being jumped on about their "proof".

 

[Quiddity]

I often find it difficult where exactly to draw the line. I do not interpret "give to ceasar, what is ceasars" as a full fledged "let them do whatever they want". You don't have to be religious to see the disorder in that.


It is recorded by Josephus,
Our legislator [Moses] had no regard to any of these forms,(monarchies, oligarchies, and republics) but he ordained our government to be what by a strained expression, may be termed a theocracy [theokratian], by ascribing the power and authority to God, and by persuading all the people to have a regard to him as the author of all good things.

The early Church did attempt to follow in the Jewish tradition footsteps in this regard. Depending on which province one happened to live in, determined the extent of how much the Church was involved. In some provinces the Bishop was more involved then other provinces. It usually had lots to do with the Emperor in power and how much he embraced Christianity.

It is to be noted that although early Christendom meddled in political affairs (they still do) it was never something clearly spelled out and was something they were trying to figure out themselves. What role are they supposed to play society? Do they stay silent? Some extremist sure would like that.

But to answer your question... ....I usually get involved and push for my agenda depending on Natural Law and the impact something will have on the society as a whole.

 

[Melody]

But to answer your question... ....I usually get involved and push for my agenda depending on Natural Law and the impact something will have on the society as a whole.

So if natural law is eternal law...and eternal law is God's Wisdom...and the Bible is God's Word does this mean you follow Scripture always and there is no secular distinction?

Or did I misunderstand?

 

[Quiddity]

So if natural law is eternal law...and eternal law is God's Wisdom

Here lies our first disagreement. Or at least until things get clarified..
Natural Law is a part of Eternal Law, but it not Eternal Law. There is more then one Law under the Eternal Law. The Law of Moses is one other example.

...and the Bible is God's Word does this mean you follow Scripture always and there is no secular distinction?

Only those that apply to Natural Law. Like not killing, stealing, etc.

Or did I misunderstand?

Things will hopefully get clearer as we continue.

 

[Melody]

Hmmm....no other takers? I guess that means everyone else is just as confused as I am. Well, except for Victor.

 

[Snowbear]

I'm not confused.... I just now found the post

When it comes to living in the secular world... where else am I gonna live?? Remember that "few are chosen" thing? I have reconciled that few of the people I interact with are Christians. I do not hide my Faith and am open about it without "flaunting" it. I just try to live as I believe God wants me to and try to set an example of "Do no harm and be nice" ... without compromising my beliefs. I'm generally a failure, but I DO try.

As for voting.... I try to be informed about BOTH sides of the issues, pray about them, and vote my conscience.

As for your specific topic of abortion... I personally believe that life begins at conception. This is actually a belief I came upon based purely on science.... long before I "became" a Christian. One lab I assisted with research in while in college involved studies of chicken embryos and fetuses. I was fascinated with the study of embryology. These studies convinced me that just because an embryo or fetus cannot sustain it's own life once removed from it's incubator does not mean it is not a life of it's own. That's like saying that adult humans do not have a life of their own once taken from the earth that sustains them.

Anyhow.... that said... I believe that terminating a pregnancy based on convenience is a terribly sad choice to make. I also realize that women in the secular (and probably even non-secular) world are going to make that choice whether it's legal in the eyes of the law or not. Ideally, I would like to see no self-terminated pregnancies at all. But knowing that's not the way things are, I agree that a more medically safe for the woman option for abortion is better than the back-alley option that was the case before abortions were legal.

I would personally like to see all abortion clinics provide REAL counseling as to women's options for dealing with a pregnancy they do not want and a baby they either can't or don't want to care for. I also think this counseling should inform the woman of the incredible guilt and remorse she has no idea she will probably feel once the act is done... if that's the choice she's ultimately going to make.

 

[Mystic-als]

I think that to merge the secular and spiritual is extreemly difficult. Not only does the bible say render to Ceasar what is Ceasers but that the people in authority are placed there by God. This is difficult to swallow when there are world leaders that knowingly kill their own people because of greed.

The best example of this "marriage" is of course Jesus. It has been spoken about "Natural Law", "Moses' Law", "Eternal Law". But Jesus said that he came to fullfill the law. In other words to show us how to do it. But not be bound by it.
As to how do we do it. It's like asking the meaning of life. or how long is a peice of string. No one alive today can really give a complete answer to that.

So this is not an answer to your question, it's more a comment.

 

[James the Persian]

I think that being in the world but not of the world is the key idea here. We have to live in the world but we do not have to let the attitudes of those around us affect our beliefs or behaviour. I must admit that this is often very difficult.

I have to say that I just read a very wise post on another forum by a person I did not expect to say such a thing. He said something like, 'All sins are not equal. The sin I commit will always be graver than the sin of my neighbour'. If we live like that, working on ourselves and not dwelling on those things we disagree with in the world around us, I think that is a very good start.

Now, with regards to politics (which is what this thread seems to be mostly about so far), that doesn't mean that we should sit back and fail to participate. I think there is a distinction to be made between how we relate to individuals and to society as a whole. Personally, I will vote as my conscience leads me to, and this will be unashamedly religiously motivated. I do not, however, believe that I have a right to impose my views on others (as some Christians seem to wish to do). I can try in my own small way to change society to one that I would agree with but if this fails (which it almost certainly will) then I have to find ways to live out my faith even amongst the negative influences of the society around me. Someone (I forget who) once said 'Save yourself and others will be saved around you'. In other words, concentrate your efforts on living your own faith and this will have positive effects on the people around you. Concentrating on righting the wrongs of others only leads you to neglect your own spiritual path and alienate your neighbours.

Have any of my musings actually answered the question in the OP? I'm really not sure.

James

 

[Mystic-als]

"If we live like that, working on ourselves and not dwelling on those things we disagree with in the world around us, I think that is a very good start." - JamesThePersian

I have to definitly agree with you. We should work on the way we live in this world. If we live the example. Then change shouldn't be far away.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I am interested in knowing how you reconcile these beliefs with living in a secular world. Where do your beliefs stop and the secular world begins.

My beliefs are a part of this world, as am I. Everything belongs to God, so I see no seperation whatsoever between the secular and sacred. My beliefs never stop.

For example, if there is a bill on the voting roster for deny gays the right to marry, what do you feel your responsibilities are as a Christian? Do your beliefs only pertain to you? Do you avoid the vote because it's secular? Do you believe God is ok with separating what's right for us and other people's "rights" to sin?

As a Christian, my responsibility is to love others. I cannot love others and prevent them from seeing their loved ones in the hosiptal or keeping them from raising their children in loving homes. It is my Christian and American duty to allow people to live freely and pursue happiness according to a life of conscience. I vote for gay marriage because it is humane.

 

[Melody]

Thank you to those who responded. As I was reading, I had a thought that perhaps I was making this more difficult than it had to be. I am a Christian, therefore *I* must follow the dictates of my God. Does God require me to force everyone else to live by the same rules....which will happen if I vote according to my faith? Well if I go back and look at the OT, there are verses that seem to show that God did not hold the unbeliever to the same standards. Which is why He made laws keeping His people separate from the idolators.

I cannot in good faith vote *for* some of these things...but since the believer does not need secular laws to know what's right according to God's standards, can I abstain from voting and still be true to my faith?

I'm interestedin other believer's views.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I cannot in good faith vote *for* some of these things...but since the believer does not need secular laws to know what's right according to God's standards, can I abstain from voting and still be true to my faith?

IMO, reason and conscience will be good enough. America is a limited democracy. We determine together what is right and wrong for our nation - how to regulate liberty for the best society possible. The Christian faith has valuable insight, but no part of the faith can or should be legislated.

People must have a choice as to whether or not to honor God as revealed in the Bible. What is not revealed that can honor God is plain enough to the human conscience and rationale (eg - not lying, stealing, committing murder, etc).

I don't see how obstaining from voting can honor God in America. Freedom must be practiced in order to be preserved, and freedom is the best way for humans to live IMO.

 

[Buttercup]

IMO, reason and conscience will be good enough. America is a limited democracy. We determine together what is right and wrong for our nation - how to regulate liberty for the best society possible. The Christian faith has valuable insight, but no part of the faith can or should be legislated.

I agree with this statement and as a Christian I vote my conscious often.

Living in our secular world,....I vote for Gays to have the right to marry because I think this is a civil matter and should have nothing to do with religion. Why should the religious have the say on who can marry? My reason and conscious say every one should marry whom they want in a free nation.

On abortion, I will always think of it as murder. My conscious will cause me to vote against it whenever the opportunity arises.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

On abortion, I will always think of it as murder.

Even non-surgical abortions?

 

[Buttercup]

Even non-surgical abortions?

Any method used to terminate the life of an embryo or fetus, yes. The means of the abortion wouldn't matter to me. Same result in the end.

I do think for cases of genuine rape and if the life of the mother is endangered (very rare) I would feel it was justified morally in my mind.

 

[Quiddity]

I think that being in the world but not of the world is the key idea here. We have to live in the world but we do not have to let the attitudes of those around us affect our beliefs or behaviour. I must admit that this is often very difficult.

I have to say that I just read a very wise post on another forum by a person I did not expect to say such a thing. He said something like, 'All sins are not equal. The sin I commit will always be graver than the sin of my neighbour'. If we live like that, working on ourselves and not dwelling on those things we disagree with in the world around us, I think that is a very good start.

Now, with regards to politics (which is what this thread seems to be mostly about so far), that doesn't mean that we should sit back and fail to participate. I think there is a distinction to be made between how we relate to individuals and to society as a whole. Personally, I will vote as my conscience leads me to, and this will be unashamedly religiously motivated. I do not, however, believe that I have a right to impose my views on others (as some Christians seem to wish to do). I can try in my own small way to change society to one that I would agree with but if this fails (which it almost certainly will) then I have to find ways to live out my faith even amongst the negative influences of the society around me. Someone (I forget who) once said 'Save yourself and others will be saved around you'. In other words, concentrate your efforts on living your own faith and this will have positive effects on the people around you. Concentrating on righting the wrongs of others only leads you to neglect your own spiritual path and alienate your neighbours.

Have any of my musings actually answered the question in the OP? I'm really not sure.

James

That was a post that really pierced my ears James. Very nice.

Although I am still a bit unclear as to how you reconcile the two I bolded. If you vote religiously motivated, isn't that indirectly imposing upon others?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Any method used to terminate the life of an embryo or fetus, yes. The means of the abortion wouldn't matter to me. Same result in the end.

I do think for cases of genuine rape and if the life of the mother is endangered (very rare) I would feel it was justified morally in my mind.

Do you oppose all means of birth control? I ask because I think that most birth control pills prevent fertilized eggs from attaching to the uterus... this is the same process as the "morning-after" pill -- a non-surgical abortion.

Just curious.

 

[Melody]

REMINDER

This thread is not a discussion on abortion or homosexuality...please start a new thread for those topics.

Thanks.

 

[Melody]

I don't see how obstaining from voting can honor God in America. Freedom must be practiced in order to be preserved, and freedom is the best way for humans to live IMO.

So you vote your conscience even if that means imposing your faith based rules on unbelievers?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So you vote your conscience even if that means imposing your faith based rules on unbelievers?

The Christian faith has valuable insight, but no part of the faith can or should be legislated.

People must have a choice as to whether or not to honor God as revealed in the Bible. What is not revealed that can honor God is plain enough to the human conscience and rationale (eg - not lying, stealing, committing murder, etc).

Faith informs conscience but it does not dictate it.