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JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Share what you personally believe to be the strongest evidence - either for or against - the Book of Mormon.

Please limit yourself to just the one example and try to keep it civil.
 
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JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
The Bible has an endless amount of historical and archeological evidence to support it. The Book of Mormon has not a shred of such evidence, not even a single coin as evidence for the stories which supposedly took place in America.
So - to you - the historical and archaeological evidence is what proves the truths written in the Bible?

Also - do you think there could be other reasons to explain supposed lack of evidence other than it not existing?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
So - to you - the historical and archaeological evidence is what proves the truths written in the Bible?

Also - do you think there could be other reasons to explain supposed lack of evidence other than it not existing?
I do not think historical and archaeological evidence alone proves the Bible to be true. Nevertheless, these are important because they demonstrate that God the Creator works through real people and nations as He interacts throughout history, in contrast to fables or stories which have no connection to real life historical events.
If the accounts in the Book of Mormon actually happened there would be some physical archaeological evidence. Besides, DNA shows that the Native Americans are not descended from the Jews of the Middle East which the Book of Mormon falsely claims.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
I do not think historical and archaeological evidence alone proves the Bible to be true. Nevertheless, these are important because they demonstrate that God the Creator works through real people and nations as He interacts throughout history, in contrast to fables or stories which have no connection to real life historical events.
If the accounts in the Book of Mormon actually happened there would be some physical archaeological evidence. Besides, DNA shows that the Native Americans are not descended from the Jews of the Middle East which the Book of Mormon falsely claims.
I'm sorry - despite what you said - it still sounds like you are claiming that this historical and archaeological evidence is what proves that the Bible records "real people" and is not "fables or stories".

I would recommend that you look more into evidence for the Book of Mormon - because Joseph Smith claiming that a high civilization existed right where they were found in Meso-American is a bigger deal than you think - especially when all his contemporaries were telling him no high civilization existed in the Americas.

Also - the Book of Mormon does not claim that the Native Americans descend from Jews.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The Book of Mormon includes 1769 KJV errors.

The Book of Mormon includes 1769 KJV italics.

The Book of Mormon includes biblical passages that match the Bible but not Jospeh Smith’s translation of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon refers to many animals and technologies that did not exist in the America’s pre-Colombus.

the names of many characters and locations in the Book of Mormon are essentially the same as local names around where Joseph Smith lived.

The Book of Mormon is incredibly similar to the book “View of the Hebrews.” Some might consider it plagiarized.

Key verses about the godhead evolved as did Joseph Smith’s theology.

That’s a good start.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I'm sorry - despite what you said - it still sounds like you are claiming that this historical and archaeological evidence is what proves that the Bible records "real people" and is not "fables or stories".

I would recommend that you look more into evidence for the Book of Mormon - because Joseph Smith claiming that a high civilization existed right where they were found in Meso-American is a bigger deal than you think - especially when all his contemporaries were telling him no high civilization existed in the Americas.

Also - the Book of Mormon does not claim that the Native Americans descend from Jews.

Read Alma chapter 10 verse 3, where it says...
”And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.”

I have looked into the Book of Mormon and it contains numerous contradictions with the biblical scriptures which demonstrate it is not inspired by God who does not contradict His word.

Joseph Smith was heavily involved with occult practices making him a prime target for deception. I am confident that his interactions and translation of the Book of Mormon from the angelic being Moroni was demonic. Even the claim of Egyptian characters goes against the Bible since Egypt in the Bible represented sin and bondage. Any legitimate revelation from God at that point in history would have been in Hebrew. Of course, I didn’t realize any of this having been influenced by new age/ occult ideas myself back when I made friends with LDS people, met missionaries and read the Book of Mormon. I thought it sounded very believable and certainly not something Joseph Smith could just invent. So I had a testimony and joined the LDS church, went through the temple endowment ceremony and my husband and I were sealed for time and eternity.

It was actually going to the temple that God (the true biblical God) used to wake me up and show me the occult darkness and deception in Mormonism and bring deliverance and real freedom in Jesus Christ alone. Jesus is enough and all that is needed for salvation and eternal life.


 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So - to you - the historical and archaeological evidence is what proves the truths written in the Bible?

Also - do you think there could be other reasons to explain supposed lack of evidence other than it not existing?
Bait and switch?
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Read Alma chapter 10 verse 3, where it says...
”And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren.”
Claiming that Manassehites are Jews would be like claiming Hebrews are Arabs.

The Book of Mormon claims that those who traveled with Lehi were from the tribe of Ephraim and Manasseh - both descend from Joseph - not Judah.

They were not Jews.
I have looked into the Book of Mormon and it contains numerous contradictions with the biblical scriptures which demonstrate it is not inspired by God who does not contradict His word.
I also do not believe that God contradicts His word - but Man does and has a lot.

The Bible has many contradictions. I still believe that it is the Word of God - but I know it was given to imperfect Man.

You'd be free to share some of these supposed contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible if you want.
Joseph Smith was heavily involved with occult practices making him a prime target for deception.
He was no more or less involved with "occult" practices than anyone else who lived in New England at that time.

Besides - Noah was a drunk, Abraham grew up among idol worshipers and Moses murdered that guy.

God has to work with imperfect people - or He would be unable to work with anyone.
I am confident that his interactions and translation of the Book of Mormon from the angelic being Moroni was demonic.
I personally don't see how a boy who acted on God's promise recorded in the Book of James could be led astray by any demon.
Even the claim of Egyptian characters goes against the Bible since Egypt in the Bible represented sin and bondage.
Egypt was the socioeconomic superpower in Israel at the time that Lehi lived there (approximately 600 B.C.E).

It would make perfect sense for Lehi - and most of Israel - to read and write in some form of Egyptian.

Joseph Smith would never have known that.
Any legitimate revelation from God at that point in history would have been in Hebrew.
The brass plates (which contained the Torah and many books of the prophets) were written in Hebrew and taken by Lehi to the New World.

Nephi explained that they used Egyptian characters because they took up less space on the metal plates.

When do you believe this whole "it needs to be in Hebrew" requirement changed?

Because the Lord Jesus Christ spoke in Aramaic and the New Testament was written in Greek.

Do you throw those out too?
Of course, I didn’t realize any of this having been influenced by new age/ occult ideas myself back when I made friends with LDS people, met missionaries and read the Book of Mormon. I thought it sounded very believable and certainly not something Joseph Smith could just invent. So I had a testimony and joined the LDS church, went through the temple endowment ceremony and my husband and I were sealed for time and eternity.

It was actually going to the temple that God (the true biblical God) used to wake me up and show me the occult darkness and deception in Mormonism and bring deliverance and real freedom in Jesus Christ alone. Jesus is enough and all that is needed for salvation and eternal life.
The Lord Jesus Christ is the heart of the Book of Mormon, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Temple ordinances - basically everything.

You'd be surprised how Latter-day Saint doctrines agree with original Christian doctrine that was phased out by the Romans.
 
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JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
The Book of Mormon includes 1769 KJV errors.

The Book of Mormon includes 1769 KJV italics.

The Book of Mormon includes biblical passages that match the Bible but not Jospeh Smith’s translation of the Bible.

The Book of Mormon refers to many animals and technologies that did not exist in the America’s pre-Colombus.

the names of many characters and locations in the Book of Mormon are essentially the same as local names around where Joseph Smith lived.

The Book of Mormon is incredibly similar to the book “View of the Hebrews.” Some might consider it plagiarized.

Key verses about the godhead evolved as did Joseph Smith’s theology.

That’s a good start.
The OP asked you to pick one example to work with.

How about you pick one from your list?

That's not a very difficult instruction to follow.
Bait and switch?
You are immediately ascribing some kind of malice or ill intent - which isn't keeping civil.

There were only two conditions to participating in this thread and you couldn't keep them?
That’s what the Church taught. They conveniently were inspired to change the title page when proven wrong.
Why would the Church teach something contrary to what was written in the Book of Mormon?

Also the Title Page was the last leaf of the gold plates - written by Moroni - and has never been changed.

That change you were most likely referring to was made in the Introduction.

That change does not change the position of the Book of Mormon or the Church.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Share what you personally believe to be the strongest evidence - either for or against - the Book of Mormon.

Please limit yourself to just the one example and try to keep it civil.
The Book of Mormon’s own text is the strongest evidence against it.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Not much of an example. Could you provide one?
Sure. The Book of Mormon quotes particular passages from the Bible and includes the same mistakes found in the KJV that Joseph used. These passages also include the same italics. Also, some of these are passages “corrected” in the JST version of the Bible, and yet still show up “uncorrected” in the BoM.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
Sure. The Book of Mormon quotes particular passages from the Bible and includes the same mistakes found in the KJV that Joseph used. These passages also include the same italics. Also, some of these are passages “corrected” in the JST version of the Bible, and yet still show up “uncorrected” in the BoM.
Could you quote a specific example from the Book of Mormon and also provide evidence that that verse was translated incorrectly in the KJV?

Also - I have heard this argument against the JST - or Inspired Version - many times and I believe it stems from a misunderstanding of what the JST is.

The JST was not a "correction" to the KJV of the Bible - but more of an Inspired Commentary by the Prophet.

The way I have come to understand it is imagining that the Prophet was reading along with you and would personally interpret those verses.

They also added content when more was needed to explain doctrines and ideas in their proper context.

The idea that the JST was some sort of "correction" or "restoration" of the original text is not accurate - but I can understand how you came to this misunderstanding - based on the views of the Church concerning the imperfections contained in the Bible.

Not to mention all the confused members of the Church sharing these misunderstandings.

The official position of the Church regarding the JST is as follows,

"A revision or translation of the King James Version of the Bible begun by the Prophet Joseph Smith in June 1830. He was divinely commissioned to make the translation and regarded it as “a branch of his calling” as a prophet.

Although not the official Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the JST offers many interesting insights and is an invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding. It is a most fruitful source of useful information for the student of the scriptures. It is likewise a witness for the divine calling and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith."

Joseph Smith Translation (JST)
 
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InChrist

Free4ever
Claiming that Manassehites are Jews would be like claiming Hebrews are Arabs.

The Book of Mormon claims that those who traveled with Lehi were from the tribe of Ephraim and Manasseh - both descend from Joseph - not Judah.

They were not Jews.


When you read the entire OT as a whole you will see that the scriptures use Jews and Israel or children of Israel interchangeably in reference to the same people group, though there were different tribes. Either way, DNA has shown that the native people of America are of Asian descent, not from Israel, not Hebrew, and not from the Middle East. So the story of Lehi leaving Jerusalem, coming from Israel to America is false.
And if anyone did flee Jerusalem before the Babylonian captivity then according to ( Jeremiah 28 and 29 ) they were in opposition to God’s will who said they were to serve the king of Babylon.

He was no more or less involved with "occult" practices than anyone else who lived in New England at that time.

Besides - Noah was a drunk, Abraham grew up among idol worshipers and Moses murdered that guy.

God has to work with imperfect people - or He would be unable to work with anyone.

I personally don't see how a boy who acted on God's promise recorded in the Book of James could be led astray by any demon.
Certainly God takes imperfect people and uses them for His glory. The difference is that they don’t continue in their sinful behavior, as Joseph Smith did with occult practices.

The NT is full of warnings and examples of people who are deceived by demons or angels of light when they reject God’s already revealed word and truth. That is exactly what Joseph Smith did when he rejected the clear gospel message concerning salvation through Jesus Christ, which was already being preached in his day and community, for something different and new. So it is easy to see he was open for deception.

The temple ceremonies are a perfect example of Joseph Smith continuing to practice occultism and incorporating these Masonic practices into his new religion in contradiction to the biblical scriptures.
Just before Jesus died on the cross in payment for the sins of the world, He said “It is finished” and the veil in the temple was torn. The book of Hebrews states that the temple and priesthood ceremonies of the OT were shadows of the final sacrifice of Christ who is the High Priest now seated at the right hand of Majesty in the heavens as the only Mediator.

The Mormon temple rituals are anti- biblical not only because the old covenant has been replaced with the new covenant, but also because the Mormon temple and the ceremonies which take place there are based on Masonic Lodge rituals which are simply demonic witchcraft.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
When you read the entire OT as a whole you will see that the scriptures use Jews and Israel or children of Israel interchangeably in reference to the same people group, though there were different tribes.
That is not at all accurate.

Descendants of Abraham were referred to as "Hebrews" up until their captivity in Egypt - when they were designated Israelites - after their patriarch Israel.

The term "Jew" originally referred to descendants of Judah (son of Israel) but later - after the schism - it was also used to refer to citizens of the Southern Kingdom of Judah in general - which contained the entire tribe of Judah and the majority of Benjamin.

Although - referring to citizens of Judah as "Jews" was not a reference to lineage - but to national/cultural identity.

It's like how everyone in the Untied States can be referred to as an "American" - even though that descriptor does not allude to their lineage.

Also - since the Northern Kingdom of Israel was generally less faithful to YHWH - faithful members from every tribe moved to Judah.

Therefore it makes perfect sense that Lehi - a Manassehite and faithful worshiper of YHWH - would dwell in Jerusalem.

Lehi and his family never referred to themselves as Jews - even though they had come from Jerusalem.

Nephi - Lehi's son - made it clear that they were not Jews in his admonition to the readers of the Book of Mormon to come to Christ,

"And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good." (2 Nephi 33:10)

The reason that we today refer to the culture and religion of Hebrews as "Jewish" and "Judaism" is because the majority of the survivors of the Babylonian Exile were descendants of Judah and they were allowed to return and retain their distinctive cultural and religious identity.

Simply put - all Jews are Israelites - but not all Israelites are Jews.
Either way, DNA has shown that the native people of America are of Asian descent, not from Israel, not Hebrew, and not from the Middle East. So the story of Lehi leaving Jerusalem, coming from Israel to America is false.
I always find this assertion to be laughable.

The idea that a handful of Israelites would make any sort of dent in the genetic makeup of the Amerindians - especially after thousands of years of genocidal wars and plagues - is absurd.

Not to mention that we don't have any Manassehite DNA to compare anything to.

Also - the discovery of Haplogroup X in Native American populations - which is shared by descendants of Syria, Lebanon and Israel - proves that not all ancestors of the Native Americans were Asian.
And if anyone did flee Jerusalem before the Babylonian captivity then according to ( Jeremiah 28 and 29 ) they were in opposition to God’s will who said they were to serve the king of Babylon.
I don't know how you came to this conclusion.

Jeremiah 28 recounts a false prophet who claimed that Babylon's dominance/occupation or "yoke" upon Judah would be broken in two years - contrary to the prophesies of Jeremiah and other prophets.

It does not claim that Israelites were not allowed to leave Judah or Israel.

Jeremiah 29 was a letter which was obviously written after the desolation caused by Babylon because it was addressed to Israelite captives in Babylon that had been scattered,

"Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon;" (Jeremiah 29:1)

Many question if Jeremiah even wrote this letter or if someone wrote it based on his works.

Either way - the letter was written after Babylon destroyed Israel and Judah and experts claim that it could not have been written any earlier than 540 B.C.E - which was 60 years after the Book of Mormon claims Lehi and his family left Jerusalem.

Basically - neither of these chapters apply to Lehi and his family or contradict any claims made in the Book of Mormon.
Certainly God takes imperfect people and uses them for His glory. The difference is that they don’t continue in their sinful behavior, as Joseph Smith did with occult practices.
That is demonstrably false.

The Genesis account claims that Noah became drunk after the Flood - well after he had been called to be a prophet - which caused some significant commotion.

Moses not only refused to circumcise his son at the command of God (his wife had to do it) but he also took credit for God's miracle of providing water from the stone - which cost him entrance into the promised land.

Jonah complained against God after the inhabitants of Nineveh repented - which was his mission - and lamented that God did not destroy them.

Peter not only denied the Lord three times - but he stubbornly clung to the traditions of the Law of Moses in defiance to revelation he himself had received.

Just for curiosity sake - what do you mean by "occult" and what "occult" practices are you referring to?
The NT is full of warnings and examples of people who are deceived by demons or angels of light when they reject God’s already revealed word and truth. That is exactly what Joseph Smith did when he rejected the clear gospel message concerning salvation through Jesus Christ, which was already being preached in his day and community, for something different and new. So it is easy to see he was open for deception.
The New Testament is filled with these warnings? You mean a handful - right?

Either way - the Gospel taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith is the same one that is taught in the New Testament.

"We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost." (4th Article of Faith)
The temple ceremonies are a perfect example of Joseph Smith continuing to practice occultism and incorporating these Masonic practices into his new religion in contradiction to the biblical scriptures.
I fail to see how Temple worship is proof of any kind of "occultism".

Unless you are using that term to describe "studying truth that dwells beneath the surface" (the actual definition of "occultism").

The Masonic influence on the Temple Endowment is obvious - but what do you mean when you say the Prophet incorporated "Masonic practices"? What exactly are you referring to?

Also explain how any of these things contradict the Bible.
Just before Jesus died on the cross in payment for the sins of the world, He said “It is finished” and the veil in the temple was torn.
And you believe to know exactly what the Lord meant when He said that and what the renting of the veil signified?
The book of Hebrews states that the temple and priesthood ceremonies of the OT were shadows of the final sacrifice of Christ who is the High Priest now seated at the right hand of Majesty in the heavens as the only Mediator.
Yes - latter-day scripture - such as the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham - agree with these teachings.

However - the Book of Hebrews does not claim that anything happening in latter-day Temples is incorrect or what the Lord meant when He said, "It is finished" or what the renting of the veil signified.
The Mormon temple rituals are anti- biblical not only because the old covenant has been replaced with the new covenant, but also because the Mormon temple and the ceremonies which take place there are based on Masonic Lodge rituals which are simply demonic witchcraft.
If Temple worship is "anti-biblical" - then why did the first practitioners of the new covenant - Peter, James, John and Paul - frequently worship and teach at the temple in Jerusalem?

I'm not about to make any judgments about the Freemasons - but nothing that happens in latter-day Temples is "demonic" or related to "witchcraft".

What exact practices and rituals are you referring to?
 
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Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Could you quote a specific example from the Book of Mormon and also provide evidence that that verse was translated incorrectly in the KJV?

Also - I have heard this argument against the JST - or Inspired Version - many times and I believe it stems from a misunderstanding of what the JST is.

The JST was not a "correction" to the KJV of the Bible - but more of an Inspired Commentary by the Prophet.

The way I have come to understand it is imagining that the Prophet was reading along with you and would personally interpret those verses.

They also added content when more was needed to explain doctrines and ideas in their proper context.

The idea that the JST was some sort of "correction" or "restoration" of the original text is not accurate - but I can understand how you came to this misunderstanding - based on the views of the Church concerning the imperfections contained in the Bible.

Not to mention all the confused members of the Church sharing these misunderstandings.

The official position of the Church regarding the JST is as follows,

"A revision or translation of the King James Version of the Bible begun by the Prophet Joseph Smith in June 1830. He was divinely commissioned to make the translation and regarded it as “a branch of his calling” as a prophet.

Although not the official Bible of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the JST offers many interesting insights and is an invaluable aid to biblical interpretation and understanding. It is a most fruitful source of useful information for the student of the scriptures. It is likewise a witness for the divine calling and ministry of the Prophet Joseph Smith."

Joseph Smith Translation (JST)
Sorry, I’ve been crazy busy this week but will get back to you soon!
 
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