Christians Only. Peacekeeper or Peacemaker?

[eik]

It would help if you knew what is being spoken about here...
Firstly, the word "soul" is used in the Bible only of a living, breathing creature....never for a disembodied spirit. It is synonymous with life. And you will notice that body and soul are "destroyed" in "Gehenna" which is poorly translated as "hell". It simply means that life is withdrawn from those who are sentenced to Gehenna. It means everlasting death not everlasting torment. "Destroyed" means what....?

I repudiate what you say, otherwise the words "kill the body but cannot kill the soul" is meaningless. The Greek word "psyche" in Matt 10 has two distinct meanings.

Yes, you notice it doesn't say "living" but "to him all are alive"....IOW its as if they are still alive because the resurrection is so sure. They are just asleep, waiting for Christ to awaken them. (John 5:28-29)

No pre-Christian servant of God ever entertained the notion of going to heaven. To the ancient Jews, death was a state of unconsciousness in the grave (sheol) (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) and there was an expectation that the dead would be resurrected once Messiah's Kingdom was established on earth. The resurrection was believed to be entirely physical.
Go to any Jewish cemetery and see how elaborate some of their vaults are. A proper burial is very important, which is why "gehenna" was dreaded, It was a death with no resurrection.

For you the Holy Spirit is inanimate, the world of ghosts doesn't exist and spirits and souls also. I fear that the evidence is against you.

Rev 6:9 "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”…"

This is actually a parable...not meant to be taken literally. Look at all the surrounding verses and chapters in Luke...they are all parables.

This one was making a distinction between the Pharisees (pictured by the rich man) and the lost sheep (pictured by the beggar) whom they ignored and refused to give attention to. They would sit by the rich man's table waiting for a few crumbs.They changed places when Jesus came.

This parable is ridiculous if taken literally.

The Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul....it teaches that the soul (person) dies just like the animals do. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Ezekiel 18:4) All return to the dust....like Adam. (Genesis 3:19) Death is the opposite of life. Resurrection is a restoration of life.

'There are none so blind as those who will not see'.....if you don't want to know or understand what the Bible really teaches, then you never will. There is so much more to the Bible than what the churches teach....I know that first hand.

I do not believe a word you say. "Destroy in Gehenna" Matt 10:28 would be redundant and meaningless if the soul ceased to exist on death.

You seem to spend more time nullifying scripture than you do believing in it.

 

[Deeje]

I repudiate what you say, otherwise the words "kill the body but cannot kill the soul" is meaningless. The Greek word "psyche" in Matt 10 has two distinct meanings.

The ancient Israelites saw things in very concrete terms, in their totality, and so they considered humans as persons and not as composites. The term nepes, though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. They believed that the soul died and returned to the earth. Restoration of life was by resurrection.

The idea of an immortal soul is from the influence of Greek Platonism....not the Bible.
This doctrine has completely changed the whole concept of death as it was portrayed in the OT.

It opened up all manner of injected ideas, such as all good Christians going to either heaven or all the wicked going to hell when this was completely absent from the minds of the Israelites. Remember Jesus was Jewish and he did not teach that human souls went to heaven or hell as opposite destinations.
Israel had only two choices...life or death. That's it.....

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants". (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The faithful would be resurrected, and the wicked were lost forever in death, having the gift of life stipped away from them.
Jesus did not change that situation except to redefine the resurrection for a chosen "few". Being offered a position in heaven as "joint-heirs" with Christ in his Kingdom, these would assist Jesus in his role of mediator, bringing the fallen human race back into reconciliation with God.

For you the Holy Spirit is inanimate, the world of ghosts doesn't exist and spirits and souls also. I fear that the evidence is against you.

I believe that your misunderstanding of our beliefs is at issue here.....we do not by any means believe that the holy spirit is "inanimate"....it is just not a person....the third person of a godhead.

It is the active administration of God's power to accomplish whatever it is sent to do. It comes from God as his active force, so it is never inanimate. It was active in creation and in enabling Jesus and others to carry out their assignments. It was active in assisting the apostles to carry on that work that Jesus started. It is still active in these last days helping faithful ones to come to Christ before the end of this wicked world comes. (Matthew 24:14)

Rev 6:9 "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge those who live on the earth and avenge our blood?”…"

These lives lost are addressed similarly to that which described the death of Abel at the hand of his own brother....

Genesis 4:10...
"At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground."
This is figurative, not literal. Their deaths are crying out for justice. Since these are "souls" not spirits, and "soul" never refers to disembodied spirits (it is only applied to living animals and humans. Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) this is not referring to the 'living dead'. There are no living dead. Dead is dead. If you have been taught otherwise all your life, then that concept is not going to sit well, but consider....

If the dead are alive 'somewhere' and can observe what is happening down here on earth to their loved ones, if they see tragedy befall them, and other horrible things taking place, then how can heaven be a happy place? How could it not be filled with sorrow?

I do not believe a word you say. "Destroy in Gehenna" Matt 10:28 would be redundant and meaningless if the soul ceased to exist on death.

That is entirely up to you....but the Bible says what it says....you can take its words at face value, or you can study the scriptures and take into consideration what the original language words mean and how the OT sets the stage for our understanding what is contained in the NT.....they are all one book, with one author. If the ancient Jews (pre-Greek influence) did not believe in an immortal soul, then there are no grounds for us to believe that either.
There is only one person who wants us to believe that we don't really die. This was the first lie he told in Eden that misled the woman, and his lies continue to mislead people to this day. That is how we see it.

You seem to spend more time nullifying scripture than you do believing in it.

Explaining scripture with scripture is not nullifying it......

Its your choice to dismiss what has been shown to you.....I once believed in an immortal soul, but discovered that the only 'spirits' that the Bible says interacted with humans in Bible times were either angels or demons.

That means there is no such thing as a ghost. (a dead person's spirit)
Deception is the devil's prime objective. You can believe that...or not. That is what we have come to believe after a very careful consideration of the whole of the Bible.....it is all God's word....isn't it? The devil can't alter scripture but he can skew the interpretation and create confusion. Isn't that what we see?

 

[eik]

The ancient Israelites saw things in very concrete terms, in their totality, and so they considered humans as persons and not as composites. The term nepes, though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. They believed that the soul died and returned to the earth. Restoration of life was by resurrection.

Here is a good article on the vagaries of Jewish belief. What is the Jewish afterlife like?

What is clear is that the soul could be summoned (cf.Samuel and the witch on Endor), so again I repudiate your notion the soul "died." Rather it slept.

I see that your rejection of the soul is corollary to rejection of platonism/neo-platonism. IMO you have thrown out "the baby with the bath water." Not everything from paganism is "wrong." Sometimes it is just distorted by imperfection. I am not saying every pagan belief about souls is correct. However the bible clearly uses pneuma and psyche as different terms.

The idea of an immortal soul is from the influence of Greek Platonism....not the Bible.
This doctrine has completely changed the whole concept of death as it was portrayed in the OT.

It opened up all manner of injected ideas, such as all good Christians going to either heaven or all the wicked going to hell when this was completely absent from the minds of the Israelites. Remember Jesus was Jewish and he did not teach that human souls went to heaven or hell as opposite destinations.
Israel had only two choices...life or death. That's it.....

I think Jesus' parable of Lazarus discloses the exact opposite.

"I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants". (Deuteronomy 30:19)

The faithful would be resurrected, and the wicked were lost forever in death, having the gift of life stipped away from them.
Jesus did not change that situation except to redefine the resurrection for a chosen "few". Being offered a position in heaven as "joint-heirs" with Christ in his Kingdom, these would assist Jesus in his role of mediator, bringing the fallen human race back into reconciliation with God.

I think Jesus' parable of Lazarus shows that what you say is false. Hell and Heaven exist on death and the soul continues.

I believe that your misunderstanding of our beliefs is at issue here.....we do not by any means believe that the holy spirit is "inanimate"....it is just not a person....the third person of a godhead.

"Animated" - weasle words. It has personality,as Jesus disclosed.

To say that the Holy Spirit is only a force is to deny the Holy Spirit personality. It must have personality where ever it goes out from God, just because it represents God who himself has personality. Arguments about the extent of anthromorphizing the Holy Spirit are separate from attributing personality to it. That it can be blasphemed shows it has personality.

It is the active administration of God's power to accomplish whatever it is sent to do. It comes from God as his active force, so it is never inanimate. It was active in creation and in enabling Jesus and others to carry out their assignments. It was active in assisting the apostles to carry on that work that Jesus started. It is still active in these last days helping faithful ones to come to Christ before the end of this wicked world comes. (Matthew 24:14)

That the Holy Spirit has power is invitable as it is from God. To say it has force is axiomatic and is to say nothing about it other than it is a force of God. Obviously it is, but we can attribute it personality, as Jesus himself did.

These lives lost are addressed similarly to that which described the death of Abel at the hand of his own brother....

Genesis 4:10...
"At this he said: “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood is crying out to me from the ground."
This is figurative, not literal. Their deaths are crying out for justice. Since these are "souls" not spirits, and "soul" never refers to disembodied spirits (it is only applied to living animals and humans. Ecclesiastes 3:19-20) this is not referring to the 'living dead'. There are no living dead. Dead is dead. If you have been taught otherwise all your life, then that concept is not going
to sit well, but consider....

If the dead are alive 'somewhere' and can observe what is happening down here on earth to their loved ones, if they see tragedy befall them, and other horrible things taking place, then how can heaven be a happy place? How could it not be filled with sorrow?

Because "all things work for the good of those that love God." Rom 8:28. I am not saying that all souls become all-knowing. That would only apply to some favoured by God.

That is entirely up to you....but the Bible says what it says....you can take its words at face value, or you can study the scriptures and take into consideration what the original language words mean and how the OT sets the stage for our understanding what is contained in the NT.....they are all one book, with one author. If the ancient Jews (pre-Greek influence) did not believe in an immortal soul, then there are no grounds for us to believe that either.

I believe the Jews believed in the continuation on of the spirit (cf. Samual and the witch of Endor). The distinction between soul and spirit is sometimes arbitary, but spirit infers animation.

There is only one person who wants us to believe that we don't really die. This was the first lie he told in Eden that misled the woman, and his lies continue to mislead people to this day. That is how we see it.

You are mistaking death of the body for death of the soul. It seems your theology has a conceptual void that cannot distinguish body and spirit. If Jesus distinguished, so can you.

Explaining scripture with scripture is not nullifying it......

Its your choice to dismiss what has been shown to you.....I once believed in an immortal soul, but discovered that the only 'spirits' that the Bible says interacted with humans in Bible times were either angels or demons.

You basically deny the spirit world. May be it's just part of the whole JW problem. Your beliefs are in so many ways superficial childish and immature. It's why JWs are often called a cult. You can't accept what's actually written in the bible. Even Paul the apostle talked about being with Christ on death. Phil 1:23. If his soul died, how could it happen?

As for believing that Jesus was created: where does it ever say that? It never says it, ever.

That means there is no such thing as a ghost. (a dead person's spirit)
Deception is the devil's prime objective. You can believe that...or not. That is what we have come to believe after a very careful consideration of the whole of the Bible.....it is all God's word....isn't it? The devil can't alter scripture but he can skew the interpretation and create confusion. Isn't that what we see?

Ghosts exist, but not everyone can perceive them. This is simply a matter of fact. Check out Borley Rectory: The haunted house where a creepy ghost of a Victorian boy was spotted

Even Jesus and his apostles conceded ghosts.

 

[Deeje]

There is quite a bit to address here so I’ll break it up FWIW....

Here is a good article on the vagaries of Jewish belief. What is the Jewish afterlife like?

The reason I said “ancient Jews” as opposed to 'modern Jews' is addressed in your article....

"What do Jews actually believe happens to them after death?

There is no simple answer: at different times and in different places, Jews had different ideas. These varying thoughts were never reconciled or canonically decided. Thus, even today, Jews believe in different, often irreconcilable, theories of what life after death is like."

That being the case, can we trust the Jews to give us the truth in the way they interpret their scripture on this subject? After all Jesus castigated the Pharisees for "teaching the commands of men as doctrine". (Matthew 15:7-9) According to King Solomon, there is no life after death in Jewish scripture. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Did you actually read the article before you posted it?

What is clear is that the soul could be summoned (cf.Samuel and the witch on Endor), so again I repudiate your notion the soul "died." Rather it slept.

Well, I'm afraid you haven't. You see the account of the witch of Endor has some background to it if you cared to read the whole thing. Saul was losing his marbles and he was disobeying his God to the point where God had abandoned him. The living prophets would not speak to him and so, out of desperation, again breaking God's law on communication with the dead ( a practice common in paganism but forbidden in Israel) he sought out the only medium still existing in the land. The irony of that was that Saul had been the one who evicted them at God's command.

If you read the account, you will see that the fortune teller was a spirit medium who could communicate with spirits of the dead, so Saul sought the advice of the now dead prophet Samuel, who had guided him in the past. The account does not say that anyone but the woman saw and heard the supposed spirit of Samuel. She described him to Saul and conveyed his words.
Now ask yourself....if the living prophets would not communicate with this disgraced king, and God had abandoned him, why would the faithful prophet Samuel communicate with Saul and tell him anything?

You do understand why God forbade the practice of consulting spirit mediums I hope.....the only spirits who answered the call were demonic spirits impersonating the dead and leading them astray.
Go back to Eden and see that the very first lie told by the devil was that "you surely will not die"...that is not what God told Adam.
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” The death penalty was permanent.

Since some humans were repentant and in need of a way to be forgiven, God provided sacrifices so that on the basis of these, he could offer sincere ones a way to be forgiven and to live again. These then paved the way for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ..."once for all time" to guarantee a way out of death by resurrection. There was never a teaching of life after death...that was the devil's lie and an immortal soul just gave humans a way not to die, but to go on living, in another form in another place. The demons would make sure that it was believable...but its a deception.

I see that your rejection of the soul is corollary to rejection of platonism/neo-platonism. IMO you have thrown out "the baby with the bath water." Not everything from paganism is "wrong."

I think that the Bible writers disagree with you....

2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

Do you see any room in Paul's words for the adoption of paganism?

Sometimes it is just distorted by imperfection. I am not saying every pagan belief about souls is correct. However the bible clearly uses pneuma and psyche as different terms.

"Pneuma" is used in english to describe what is related to air..."pneumatic" or "pneumonia". Lungs, air and breathing.

"Psyche" is also related to things in English...."psychiatry" "psychotic", relating to the brain in which our mind resides. Our mind cannot exist without a body. Our body cannot exist without breathing.

I think Jesus' parable of Lazarus discloses the exact opposite.

"I think" has no place in Bible study. God has no interest in what we think....only that we believe what his son taught us.....because all that he taught came from the Father.

To say that the Holy Spirit is only a force is to deny the Holy Spirit personality. It must have personality where ever it goes out from God, just because it represents God who himself has personality. Arguments about the extent of anthromorphizing the Holy Spirit are separate from attributing personality to it. That it can be blasphemed shows it has personality.

There are many things personified in the Bible. Personification is a figure of speech. We use this when we speak of something inanimate as if it were alive. For example, the Bible tells us, “Death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses”; “grief and sighing must flee away”; “true wisdom itself keeps crying aloud in the very street.” (Romans 5:14; Isaiah 35:10; Proverbs 1:20) Death, grief, sighing and wisdom cannot really rule, flee or cry out. But speaking as if they did, the Bible paints vivid mental pictures, easily visualized and remembered.

We believe that the holy spirit is not a person.....it has no personality of its own. It has no name, nor is it ever said to sit at God's left hand. It is sent to accomplish God's will.....guaranteeing its fulfillment.

I believe the Jews believed in the continuation on of the spirit (cf. Samual and the witch of Endor). The distinction between soul and spirit is sometimes arbitary, but spirit infers animation.

Indeed the spirit is what animated Adam from a lifeless state to a "living soul". Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one when God started him breathing. This is the main meaning of the word "spirit". The soul is the whole person...the spirit is what keeps us alive, sustained by breathing.

You are mistaking death of the body for death of the soul. It seems your theology has a conceptual void that cannot distinguish body and spirit. If Jesus distinguished, so can you.

Jesus used the "soul" as Jews understood it from their scripture. In Genesis all the animals that God created are called "souls". A soul is therefore a living breathing creature. Can you show me one instance where a soul was ever a disembodied spirit?

You basically deny the spirit world. May be it's just part of the whole JW problem. Your beliefs are in so many ways superficial childish and immature. It's why JWs are often called a cult. You can't accept what's actually written in the bible. Even Paul the apostle talked about being with Christ on death. Phil 1:23. If his soul died, how could it happen?

Oh please....Christ could have been accused of being a cult leader if that is the case. I find Christendom's beliefs to be childish and superficial TBH.....I grew up with them.

As for believing that Jesus was created: where does it ever say that? It never says it, ever.

Paul described him as...."the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)
and the apostle John in his Revelation described Jesus as..."the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God". (Revelation 3:14)

Jesus is a created being which rules him out as being the Almighty. He is "only begotten" which is "monogenes" in Greek.....the term used of 'an only child'. The fact that he is "begotten" means that he needed a begetter.....which is why God is called his "Father".

Ghosts exist, but not everyone can perceive them. This is simply a matter of fact. Check out Borley Rectory: The haunted house where a creepy ghost of a Victorian boy was spotted

These are demons impersonating the dead.....'sucked in' anyone who believes them. Talk about childish. Gotcha.

Even Jesus and his apostles conceded ghosts.

Since the apostles were Jews, they were under Jewish law which forbade anyone to communicate with spirits. (Deuteronomy 18:19-21) The demons were very active in the first century because that is when Jesus walked the earth and exposed them. But when Jesus died, God's law did not disappear, communicating with spirits was still against God's law and with good reason.

Why do we imagine that angels (who were spirit creatures) never came into contact with humans unless they materialized in human form. It was so that the demons could not repeat what they had accomplished in Noah's day. They materialized and turned the world into a place not fit for decent people to live. The flood was a response to them abusing their powers, so God stripped them of that ability. The only way to communicate with humans now was through spirit mediums...humans who had no respect for God's laws....satan's little helpers.

Even Jesus after his resurrection, (raised as a spirit), materialized human form to "appear" to his apostles and many others.

This is all in the Bible and it is what we believe.

In these last days, the demons are again very active because they know their time is almost up.
Believe them if you wish but you can't say that you were not warned.

 

[eik]

There is quite a bit to address here so I’ll break it up FWIW....

The reason I said “ancient Jews” as opposed to 'modern Jews' is addressed in your article....

"What do Jews actually believe happens to them after death?

There is no simple answer: at different times and in different places, Jews had different ideas. These varying thoughts were never reconciled or canonically decided. Thus, even today, Jews believe in different, often irreconcilable, theories of what life after death is like."

That being the case, can we trust the Jews to give us the truth in the way they interpret their scripture on this subject? After all Jesus castigated the Pharisees for "teaching the commands of men as doctrine". (Matthew 15:7-9) According to King Solomon, there is no life after death in Jewish scripture. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Did you actually read the article before you posted it?

Yes

Well, I'm afraid you haven't. You see the account of the witch of Endor has some background to it if you cared to read the whole thing. Saul was losing his marbles and he was disobeying his God to the point where God had abandoned him. The living prophets would not speak to him and so, out of desperation, again breaking God's law on communication with the dead ( a practice common in paganism but forbidden in Israel) he sought out the only medium still existing in the land. The irony of that was that Saul had been the one who evicted them at God's command.

I know the story well.

If you read the account, you will see that the fortune teller was a spirit medium who could communicate with spirits of the dead,

Purportedly, although the Jury is out whether they mostly communicate with demons. I think they do.

so Saul sought the advice of the now dead prophet Samuel, who had guided him in the past. The account does not say that anyone but the woman saw and heard the supposed spirit of Samuel. She described him to Saul and conveyed his words.

We don't actually know that. You infer it. Saul bowed down to the spirit so the contrary inference is he did see it.

Now ask yourself....if the living prophets would not communicate with this disgraced king, and God had abandoned him, why would the faithful prophet Samuel communicate with Saul and tell him anything?

Because God commanded him to.

You do understand why God forbade the practice of consulting spirit mediums I hope.....the only spirits who answered the call were demonic spirits impersonating the dead and leading them astray.

But in this case a common view is that it was indeed Samuel's spirit because of what he knew and because he alarmed the woman.

Go back to Eden and see that the very first lie told by the devil was that "you surely will not die"...that is not what God told Adam.
Genesis 3:19...
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” The death penalty was permanent.

Death of body is different from death of soul, as Jesus pointed out.

Since some humans were repentant and in need of a way to be forgiven, God provided sacrifices so that on the basis of these, he could offer sincere ones a way to be forgiven and to live again. These then paved the way for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ..."once for all time" to guarantee a way out of death by resurrection. There was never a teaching of life after death...that was the devil's lie and an immortal soul just gave humans a way not to die, but to go on living, in another form in another place. The demons would make sure that it was believable...but its a deception.

Luke 23:43 "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

I think that the Bible writers disagree with you....

2 Corinthians 6:14-18...
"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’” 18 “‘And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”

Do you see any room in Paul's words for the adoption of paganism?

Belief in souls isn't paganism as it was vouched for by Christ. psychē occurs 105 times in 95 verses in the NT.

"Pneuma" is used in english to describe what is related to air..."pneumatic" or "pneumonia". Lungs, air and breathing.

"Psyche" is also related to things in English...."psychiatry" "psychotic", relating to the brain in which our mind resides. Our mind cannot exist without a body. Our body cannot exist without breathing.

If what you say is true Act 2:27 would be meaningless.

Act 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul (psyche) in hell (hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

There are many things personified in the Bible. Personification is a figure of speech. We use this when we speak of something inanimate as if it were alive. For example, the Bible tells us, “Death ruled as king from Adam down to Moses”; “grief and sighing must flee away”; “true wisdom itself keeps crying aloud in the very street.” (Romans 5:14; Isaiah 35:10; Proverbs 1:20) Death, grief, sighing and wisdom cannot really rule, flee or cry out. But speaking as if they did, the Bible paints vivid mental pictures, easily visualized and remembered.

We believe that the holy spirit is not a person.....it has no personality of its own. It has no name, nor is it ever said to sit at God's left hand. It is sent to accomplish God's will.....guaranteeing its fulfillment.

Why are personal pronouns, specifically the masculine gender used in the Greek of the Holy Spirit?

Indeed the spirit is what animated Adam from a lifeless state to a "living soul". Adam was not given a soul, but "became" one when God started him breathing. This is the main meaning of the word "spirit". The soul is the whole person...the spirit is what keeps us alive, sustained by breathing.

So you're admitting by "whole person" that there is part of a person that is more than just the body?

Jesus used the "soul" as Jews understood it from their scripture. In Genesis all the animals that God created are called "souls". A soul is therefore a living breathing creature. Can you show me one instance where a soul was ever a disembodied spirit?

I have quoted you numerous passages where the word "soul" is used of dead people in the bible, specifically in the NT.

Oh please....Christ could have been accused of being a cult leader if that is the case. I find Christendom's beliefs to be childish and superficial TBH.....I grew up with them.

True, it's a subjective perception, but more objectively, you simply haven't addressed the numerous passages where soul is used of dead people. You just evade these passages. This is childish. JWs just skirt around things they can't make sense of, like Luke 23:43.

Paul described him as...."the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15)
and the apostle John in his Revelation described Jesus as..."the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God". (Revelation 3:14)

Jesus is a created being which rules him out as being the Almighty. He is "only begotten" which is "monogenes" in Greek.....the term used of 'an only child'. The fact that he is "begotten" means that he needed a begetter.....which is why God is called his "Father".

Jesus the man is created, but he pre-existed as the Logos (Jn 1)

These are demons impersonating the dead.....'sucked in' anyone who believes them. Talk about childish. Gotcha.

Never heard that demons impersonate the dead. Why would they do that?

Since the apostles were Jews, they were under Jewish law which forbade anyone to communicate with spirits. (Deuteronomy 18:19-21) The demons were very active in the first century because that is when Jesus walked the earth and exposed them. But when Jesus died, God's law did not disappear, communicating with spirits was still against God's law and with good reason.

Why do we imagine that angels (who were spirit creatures) never came into contact with humans unless they materialized in human form. It was so that the demons could not repeat what they had accomplished in Noah's day. They materialized and turned the world into a place not fit for decent people to live. The flood was a response to them abusing their powers, so God stripped them of that ability. The only way to communicate with humans now was through spirit mediums...humans who had no respect for God's laws....satan's little helpers.

Even Jesus after his resurrection, (raised as a spirit), materialized human form to "appear" to his apostles and many others.

This is all in the Bible and it is what we believe.

In these last days, the demons are again very active because they know their time is almost up.
Believe them if you wish but you can't say that you were not warned.

Communicating with spirits is par-excellence communicating with demons, because there is nothing to suggest that the dead can be communicated with, unless God commands it like he did in Samuel's case. Moreover it is against the law, being idolatry. God wants us to communicate with him.

 

[Deeje]

Yes

Then why did you post it? It does not support your argument.....just the opposite in fact.

I know the story well.

Not as well as you think you do apparently. Read it again...slowly and think about what it says...a modern translation may help as I do not know anyone who speaks archaic English anymore.
Saul did not see anyone, nor did he hear the so-called spirit of Samuel.

We don't actually know that. You infer it. Saul bowed down to the spirit so the contrary inference is he did see it.

He bowed down because of what the woman said, not because he saw the dead prophet. Only the woman could see and hear it.

Because God commanded him to.

Where does it say that?

But in this case a common view is that it was indeed Samuel's spirit because of what he knew and because he alarmed the woman.

The woman was alarmed because she discovered it was King Saul in disguise. He had to promise not to punish her for practicing her spiritistic arts. Saul was the one who at God's command cleared out all the spirit mediums. Think about that. The living prophets would not speak to the King......they represented Jehovah, not some demonic spirit conjured up by a fortune teller.

Death of body is different from death of soul, as Jesus pointed out.

The soul is mortal. They are living, breathing creatures. You keep dodging this fact. Souls die when the body dies. A soul is not a disembodied spirit.

Luke 23:43 "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

Oh dear....I'd like a dollar for every time I have had to point out some obvious things about Jesus' statement here....

Who was Jesus talking to? A disciple? Or a common criminal who was being deservedly punished for his crimes?

Where did Jesus promise this thief a place? Heaven or paradise? Is there a difference?

When did he tell the thief that this would take place?

Do you understand that Greek had no punctuation? Therefore the comma placed after the word "you" gives a whole different meaning than if you shift the comma to after the word "today".
Ask the important question....when did Jesus return to heaven? Was it that day? Or did he remain on earth for 40 days before his ascension?

There is no way that the thief would be in heaven with Jesus that day because Jesus was in his tomb for three days before his resurrection....Also because the thief was not part of the new covenant that Jesus had made with his apostles the night before. He was not baptized and he had not been with Jesus as a disciple at any time.

The "paradise" that Jesus promised is the one even "unrighteous" ones will be brought back to. (John 5:28-29) These are called from their graves to join the "righteous" here on earth under Christ's kingdom rulership. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Belief in souls isn't paganism as it was vouched for by Christ. psychē occurs 105 times in 95 verses in the NT.

You just don't get it do you....? Its not the word, but its meaning....an erroneous meaning given to it by Christendom. Interpretation is everything and all of scripture must harmoniously teach the same things if it is from one source.

The Bible's formula is simple....a body + breath (spirit) = a living soul.

If what you say is true Act 2:27 would be meaningless.

Act 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul (psyche) in hell (hades), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Old English again? This does not convey the thoughts of modern scholarship which has given us increased understanding of the original Biblical languages. The term 'psyche' is translated "soul" but Christendom has corrupted the meaning. Do you see how this could be a problem?

This is a quote from Psalm 16:10 and it is applied to Jesus. God did not allow his body to decay in the grave. After his resurrection "in the spirit" Jesus' fleshly body was nowhere to be seen. Thereafter Jesus "appeared" to his apostles and others, but he was not always in the same body.

Increased understanding also exposes the incorrect translation of "hell" when the word "hades" means simply the grave. In the Septuagint it is the same word as "sheol". There is no "hell"....the ancient Jews did not have any concept of such a place. They were taught 'resurrection' not immortality of the soul....that was an adoption from Greek Platonism.

I have quoted you numerous passages where the word "soul" is used of dead people in the bible, specifically in the NT.

All incorrectly interpreted....sorry.

True, it's a subjective perception, but more objectively, you simply haven't addressed the numerous passages where soul is used of dead people. You just evade these passages. This is childish. JWs just skirt around things they can't make sense of, like Luke 23:43.

The word 'psyche' is also used to represent the "life" of a person. A soul is a living creature...it is used to describe both man and animals. When the creature dies, so does the soul....it is not separate from the body. Animal souls as well as human souls, when they cease to breathe, die, and all end up in the same place....they go back to the dust. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Jesus the man is created, but he pre-existed as the Logos (Jn 1)

Yes he did.....the Logos was "with God" "in the beginning" as a created "son of God"....so how can someone be "with" another person and BE that person at the same time? And don't we have to ask..."the beginning of what"? God did not have a beginning, but Jesus most certainly did because he is called "begotten"....meaning that he needed a 'begetter.....someone who caused his existence. He was "begotten" long before the creation of anything. His 'begetting' was not in the womb of Mary.

Never heard that demons impersonate the dead. Why would they do that?

To perpetuate the first lie that the devil told to the woman...."you surely will not die"....God said that they would...so who lied? What better way for the dead to 'go on living' than in an unseen realm where no one was able to prove that the contact was even a loved one? The demons know everything about everyone, so they can divulge things that only that person would know. Its a con.

Why would God forbid us to speak to our dead loved ones, if that is who they really were? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If they were no threat to us in life why would they be in death? The threat is real only if they are not who they pretend to be.

Communicating with spirits is par-excellence communicating with demons, because there is nothing to suggest that the dead can be communicated with, unless God commands it like he did in Samuel's case. Moreover it is against the law, being idolatry. God wants us to communicate with him.

So you think in this one instance God broke his own law.....show me where he has ever done that....?

I'm done now.....I have said all I need to say. This is all way off topic anyway.

 

[eik]

Then why did you post it? It does not support your argument.....just the opposite in fact.

I wasn't using it to support any argument. I was using it to disprove your argument that the Jews held fixed views. You can't pretend that JW doctrine is based on Jewish belief.

Not as well as you think you do apparently. Read it again...slowly and think about what it says...a modern translation may help as I do not know anyone who speaks archaic English anymore.
Saul did not see anyone, nor did he hear the so-called spirit of Samuel.

He bowed down because of what the woman said, not because he saw the dead prophet. Only the woman could see and hear it.

You cannot prove it or even adduce evidence to argue it. And why should it be so, in any event? It's not as though she was gazing into a crystal ball.

Where does it say that?

That God commanded Samuel to appear is inferred from the fact that he did appear. Otherwise he wouldn't have done. It is not to be supposed that the spirits of the dead are at the beck and call of humans. That is a witchcraft fraud. Usually its demons that are being consulted under the pretext of communicating with the dead. The dead live in another dimension. God alone determines what dimensions people inhabit after death (cf. the parable of Lazarus). Sometimes they may be left in near earthly dimensions, I guess, sometimes they will be called to paradise and sometimes they will be consigned to an evil place, in prison as it were.1 Peter 3:19–20 .

The woman was alarmed because she discovered it was King Saul in disguise. He had to promise not to punish her for practicing her spiritistic arts. Saul was the one who at God's command cleared out all the spirit mediums. Think about that. The living prophets would not speak to the King......they represented Jehovah, not some demonic spirit conjured up by a fortune teller.

So what?

The soul is mortal. They are living, breathing creatures. You keep dodging this fact. Souls die when the body dies. A soul is not a disembodied spirit.

No, it's you who keep on dodging the scriptural references to the souls of dead people being alive Rev 6:9.

Oh dear....I'd like a dollar for every time I have had to point out some obvious things about Jesus' statement here....

Who was Jesus talking to? A disciple? Or a common criminal who was being deservedly punished for his crimes?

Where did Jesus promise this thief a place? Heaven or paradise? Is there a difference?

When did he tell the thief that this would take place?

Do you understand that Greek had no punctuation? Therefore the comma placed after the word "you" gives a whole different meaning than if you shift the comma to after the word "today".
Ask the important question....when did Jesus return to heaven? Was it that day? Or did he remain on earth for 40 days before his ascension?

There is no way that the thief would be in heaven with Jesus that day because Jesus was in his tomb for three days before his resurrection....Also because the thief was not part of the new covenant that Jesus had made with his apostles the night before. He was not baptized and he had not been with Jesus as a disciple at any time.

All of this shows that you have no real idea what the New Testament is all about:

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

and

Romans 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Did the thief have faith? Y. Did the thief call on the name of the Lord? Y. Where did Jesus go after he died? Paradise (cf. parable of Lazarus).

The "paradise" that Jesus promised is the one even "unrighteous" ones will be brought back to. (John 5:28-29) These are called from their graves to join the "righteous" here on earth under Christ's kingdom rulership. (Revelation 21:2-4)

John 5:28-29 refers to the day of judgement the resurrection to life in the new heavens and new earth in spiritual bodies.

You just don't get it do you....? Its not the word, but its meaning....an erroneous meaning given to it by Christendom. Interpretation is everything and all of scripture must harmoniously teach the same things if it is from one source.

The Bible's formula is simple....a body + breath (spirit) = a living soul.

That was basic Old Testament theology. Things move on. However even Ecclesiastes accepted that the soul returns to God. Ecc 12:7. God judges a soul/spirit and does with it how he sees fit.

Old English again? This does not convey the thoughts of modern scholarship which has given us increased understanding of the original Biblical languages. The term 'psyche' is translated "soul" but Christendom has corrupted the meaning. Do you see how this could be a problem?

How very convenient that the meaning has been corrupted. Prove it from Rev 6:9.

This is a quote from Psalm 16:10 and it is applied to Jesus. God did not allow his body to decay in the grave. After his resurrection "in the spirit" Jesus' fleshly body was nowhere to be seen. Thereafter Jesus "appeared" to his apostles and others, but he was not always in the same body.

No idea what you're talking about. He was resurrected in the flesh.

Increased understanding also exposes the incorrect translation of "hell" when the word "hades" means simply the grave. In the Septuagint it is the same word as "sheol". There is no "hell"....the ancient Jews did not have any concept of such a place. They were taught 'resurrection' not immortality of the soul....that was an adoption from Greek Platonism.

Again Rev 6:9.

The word 'psyche' is also used to represent the "life" of a person. A soul is a living creature...it is used to describe both man and animals. When the creature dies, so does the soul....it is not separate from the body. Animal souls as well as human souls, when they cease to breathe, die, and all end up in the same place....they go back to the dust. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

Luke 20:38. "So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to him."

A direct repudiation of the very words of Christ,

Yes he did.....the Logos was "with God" "in the beginning" as a created "son of God"....so how can someone be "with" another person and BE that person at the same time? And don't we have to ask..."the beginning of what"? God did not have a beginning, but Jesus most certainly did because he is called "begotten"....meaning that he needed a 'begetter.....someone who caused his existence. He was "begotten" long before the creation of anything. His 'begetting' was not in the womb of Mary.

It is you who are the votary of Greek philosophy. Gods begetting gods in heaven is classical Greek pagan theology derived from Egypt. Jesus was begotten at conception. The "son" never existed until conception.

To perpetuate the first lie that the devil told to the woman...."you surely will not die"....God said that they would...so who lied? What better way for the dead to 'go on living' than in an unseen realm where no one was able to prove that the contact was even a loved one? The demons know everything about everyone, so they can divulge things that only that person would know. Its a con.

Why would God forbid us to speak to our dead loved ones, if that is who they really were? (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) If they were no threat to us in life why would they be in death? The threat is real only if they are not who they pretend to be.

It's impossible to communicate with the dead as their spirits are in another dimension. However some people can experience them across dimensional boundaries if they are sufficiently attuned. It is far easier to communciate with demons, which is what necromancers do, for Prov 11: 27 "Whoever seeks good finds favor, but evil comes to one who searches for it."

So you think in this one instance God broke his own law.....show me where he has ever done that....?

No law binds God. God often allows his law to be broken whenever he metes out wrath, as in the case of Saul.

 

[Deeje]

I wasn't using it to support any argument. I was using it to disprove your argument that the Jews held fixed views. You can't pretend that JW doctrine is based on Jewish belief.

Oh but you are incorrect.....The Jews did not believe in an afterlife except by resurrection which they believed to be back to physical life on earth with the establishment of Messiah's kingdom......what religion was Jesus? Last time I looked, he was Jewish...

You cannot prove it or even adduce evidence to argue it. And why should it be so, in any event? It's not as though she was gazing into a crystal ball.

Yes you can...just read the account. No one saw or heard "Samuel" except a woman who was communicating with the demons through a means that God outlawed and which merited the death penalty in Israel.

That God commanded Samuel to appear is inferred from the fact that he did appear. Otherwise he wouldn't have done. It is not to be supposed that the spirits of the dead are at the beck and call of humans. That is the witchcraft fraud. Usually its demons that are being communicated with. The dead live in another

You really think it was him? OK, believe whatever you wish. ..makes no difference to me, just telling you what the Bible says.

So what?

Very intelligent reply.

No, it's you who keep on dodging the scriptural references to the souls of dead people being alive Rev 6:9.

Already addressed that. Its metaphoric. Where was the alter?

All of this shows that you have no real idea what the New Testament is all about:

Well one of us doesn't.

Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

and

Romans 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Did the thief have faith? Y. Did the thief call on the name of the Lord? Y. Where did Jesus go after he died? Paradise (cf. parable of Lazarus).

Where did Jesus go after he died....he was dead for three days in the tomb. He did not return to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. (Acts 1:4) The thief was not a disciple.
Since "calling on the name of the Lord" was quoted from Joel 2:32....according to the Tanakh, "the Lord" in that verse is Jehovah....not Jesus.

John 5:28-29 refers to the day of judgement the resurrection to life in the new heavens and new earth in spiritual bodies.

Yep, the "new earth" is not a new planet. There is nothing wrong with this one, it just needs a good clean. God created planet earth for humans to live on forever. (Psalm 115:16)
You think that the "new heavens" means a whole new universe?

That was basic Old Testament theology. Things move on. However even Ecclesiastes accepted that the soul returns to God. Ecc 12:7. God judges a soul/spirit and does with it how he sees fit.

No, it is not the soul that returns to God at all....it is the spirit, which is the breath of life. These terms are different, not interchangeable. The spirit returns to God in the sense that resurrected ones depend on God to furnish the breath of life in their new physical bodies, like he did with Adam when he was created. They cannot live again without it.

No idea what you're talking about. He was resurrected in the flesh.

1Peter 3:18....
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

He sacrificed his flesh, so he did not take it back. He was going to return to heaven, so he was raised as a spirit because flesh and blood can't live there. Flesh and blood creatures are confined to the earth.

Luke 20:38. "So he is the God of the living, not the dead, for they are all alive to him."

A direct repudiation of the very words of Christ,

Not at all...God is saying that he considers the dead as still alive because they are just sleeping, ready for Jesus to awaken them. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14)

Gods begetting gods in heaven is classical Greek pagan theology derived from Egypt. Jesus was begotten at conception. The "son" never existed until conception.

So how was "the Word" WITH God "in the beginning"? Jesus is identified as "the Word", God's Logos or spokesman. He was with the Father at the beginning of creation. (Revelation 19:11-13; John 17:5)

It's impossible to communicate with the dead as their spirits are in another dimension.

Really? The Bible says that they are unconscious in their graves.....no one can speak with an unconscious person. All thought processes cease at death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4)

However some people can experience them across dimensional boundaries if they are sufficiently attuned. It is far easier to communicate with demons, which is what necromancers do.

There are only demons.....there is no such thing as a disembodied dead person.

No law binds God. God often allows his law to be broken whenever he metes out wrath, as in the case of Saul.

God's laws are perfect....so perfect that he abides by them himself. When humans break his laws, they will indeed feel his wrath upon them sooner or later.

I am done now...you are simply rehashing. You can believe whatever you like. I have done my job.

 

[eik]

Oh but you are incorrect.....The Jews did not believe in an afterlife except by resurrection which they believed to be back to physical life on earth with the establishment of Messiah's kingdom......what religion was Jesus? Last time I looked, he was Jewish...

This does not seem compatible with those men who ascended directly to heaven, including Enoch and Elijah,

Then there is the question of the dead rising versus "resurrection" to a new body.

May be all can rise, at least in spirit, for "concerning the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the Book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”" Mark 12:27.

Yet not all are given a new body on "rising", at least straight away. I tend to see rising as migrating upwards to heaven.

Yes you can...just read the account. No one saw or heard "Samuel" except a woman who was communicating with the demons through a means that God outlawed and which merited the death penalty in Israel.

It doesn't say that. What it says is that when Samuel first began to appear only the woman saw him. She said "“I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”

The key phase here is "Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

Samuel spoke directly to Saul.

You really think it was him? OK, believe whatever you wish. ..makes no difference to me, just telling you what the Bible says.

It says "Samuel said to Saul." Quite unambiguous really. 1 Sam 28:15.

It did not say "the demon spoke to Saul" or "the demon spoke to the woman who spoke to Saul."

Very intelligent reply.

Already addressed that. Its metaphoric. Where was the alter?

The pictorial representation of "souls at the base of or under the altar" doubtless has a symbolic reference to the blood sacrifices in the temple and lives of the martyrs being shed as sacrifices to God. However I must refer you to what Christ said of God and the dead: "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living for to him all are alive."

Clearly these are not ghosts but have already ascended to heaven, although not yet resurrected to new bodies.

Now the second issue is this: resurrection must infer an eternal soul, otherwise all that would happen is that a brand new person would be created with no connection to the old.

Well one of us doesn't.

Where did Jesus go after he died....he was dead for three days in the tomb. He did not return to heaven for 40 days after his resurrection. (Acts 1:4) The thief was not a disciple.
Since "calling on the name of the Lord" was quoted from Joel 2:32....according to the Tanakh, "the Lord" in that verse is Jehovah....not Jesus.

I guess being a JW is why you have such a problem here. You cannot identify Jesus with YHWH. Now I'm not saying YHWH does not refer to the Father in the first instance. Clearly YHWH is pre-eminently the Father. But by Jn 1 the Word is associated with the Father and is God in the sense he is one with God and on God's throne. There is no distinction to be made. Faith in Christ is faith in God. To call on Christ is to call on God. "I and the Father are one." Except you don't believe it.

Yep, the "new earth" is not a new planet. There is nothing wrong with this one, it just needs a good clean. God created planet earth for humans to live on forever. (Psalm 115:16)

You haven't seen the amount of plastics in the ocean? Global warming will make many species disappear. What happens if the earth becomes like a greenhouse due to all the CO2 in the atmosphere? The probability of asteroid impact is large over a long period. The sun will enlarge and will consume the earth eventually. Volcanos will erupt and kill many. Do you not know of these things?

You think that the "new heavens" means a whole new universe?

This is referring to the spiritual dimension.

No, it is not the soul that returns to God at all....it is the spirit, which is the breath of life. These terms are different, not interchangeable. The spirit returns to God in the sense that resurrected ones depend on God to furnish the breath of life in their new physical bodies, like he did with Adam when he was created. They cannot live again without it.

Wouldn't be a resurrection but a new creation.

1Peter 3:18....
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit."

That your translation. Others say he was "quickened by the Spirit."

He sacrificed his flesh, so he did not take it back.

On the contrary, he did.

"You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay." Ps 16:10.

He was going to return to heaven, so he was raised as a spirit because flesh and blood can't live there. Flesh and blood creatures are confined to the earth.

I agree that when he ascended he ascended into something far more glorious, but the ascension did not take place until some time after the resurrection, when he was plainly not a spirit (doubting Thomas).

Not at all...God is saying that he considers the dead as still alive because they are just sleeping, ready for Jesus to awaken them. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? (John 11:11-14)

Whether they sleep or not, they exist in real time to God. What was Abraham doing to Lazarus? How could he be asleep?

So how was "the Word" WITH God "in the beginning"? Jesus is identified as "the Word", God's Logos or spokesman. He was with the Father at the beginning of creation. (Revelation 19:11-13; John 17:5)

The word was on the throne of God, which is why it was God. When it left the throne to become Jesus, it stopped being God because it was no longer with God. When it returned to God, it became God because it re-occupied the throne of God. i.e. anything on the throne of God is God, although that doesn't mean to say the Word displaces the Father.

Really? The Bible says that they are unconscious in their graves.....no one can speak with an unconscious person. All thought processes cease at death. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4)

Unconsciousness (soul sleep) does not infer annihilation which is what you teach.

There are only demons.....there is no such thing as a disembodied dead person.

If the soul is not eternal there is no resurrection.

God's laws are perfect....so perfect that he abides by them himself. When humans break his laws, they will indeed feel his wrath upon them sooner or later.

Wrath is visited upon humans by other humans breaking God's laws.

I am done now...you are simply rehashing. You can believe whatever you like. I have done my job.

Sadly JW belief is full of lacunae. I'd strongly urge you to read far more widely that JW propaganda.

 

[Clara Tea]

God says "don't kill." Revelation says that if Iraq is attacked, God will reap vengeance (example: Revelation 15 (7 plagues)).



Human philosophers and rebels say "kill to keep liberty."



"Eternal vigilence is the price of liberty" (the quote was first printed in an 1809 book "The Life of Major General James Jackson, by Thomas U. P. Charlton, but the quote usually isn't attributed to Jackson, but attributed to a man who likely never said it: Thomas Jefferson who said "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." At Monticello (Jefferson's plantation and plaque) it says "the condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance." March 23, 1775, Patrick Henry, at the Second Virginia Convention, at St. John's Church, Richmond, Virginia, said "Give me liberty or give me death."



When 911 happened (Arabs destroyed the World Trade skyscrapers by crashing planes), President W. Bush attacked the wrong country (Iraq was innocent of terrorism). Then W. Bush made a torture camp to torture false confessions (to justify his war), and told a few Congressmen/women, but intentionally withheld torture camp intel from the American people and the world. Cuba was chosen in order to evade international treaties against torture, which did apply anyway. About 1,000,000 Iraqis were murdered, and some were innocent women and children. Rumsfeld lied about carpet bombs (1/2 diameter craters) not killing civilians when dropped near cities.



Apparently God was right and W. Bush was wrong.



W. Bush and Cheney exposed the fact that Valery Plame (wife of Wilson) was a CIA agent. This murdered CIA agents who were seen with Plame and ended her career. This exposing was done as punishment for Wilson refusing to lie to the world about Niger selling yellow-cake Uranium to Iraq (to falsely implicate Iraq), and to make a pretext for war against the peaceful nation and steal their resources to keep fissionable material out of the hands of terrorist nations. Again, lies for war.



If we have no faith in God, we are called atheists. If we have faith in God, then we can't attack Iraq or face God's wrath. W. Bush defied God.



Perpetual war for peace is WAR (and that is called peacekeeping). It kills, wounds, and costs, while infuriating enemies and swelling the ranks of terrorist groups like ISI, ISIS, and the al Qaeda (which are all the same, though the United States Central Intelligence Agency didn't know that so they trained ISIS and gave them a huge fleet of brand new Toyota pickups, trained them to fight, and gave them shoulder-launch missiles and machine guns, thinking that they were fighting for Syrian liberation (which they were)).



War engenders more war and hatred. So, peacekeeping (perpetual war for peace) will escalate war.



China (with Russia's support) and the US are fighting over territory. Britain had captured Hong Kong and was due, in 20 years, to turn it back to China. China stole it back now, and also stole Taiwan and the China Sea (ousting other nations from plying trade). Trump sent aircraft carriers, China responded by intentionally missing with mach 10 missiles (US had no defense), and Russia sent ships in support of China. WW III will last 15 minutes (nukes) for a pyrric victory.



Sermon on the Mount: (conscious of spiritual need, mild tempered, righteous, merciful, pure of heart, peacemakers, persecuted for being righteous, others lie about you, reward in heaven). This is God's path, but, lacking faith, W. Bush chose to embrace human philosophers and rebels. W. Bush had deceived us all, claiming he was "fightin' evil" and "fightin' the Axis of Evil," while, all along he was doing evil (killing, wounding, torturing, lying, stealing land). The devil uses deception to get his way, and he impersonates the pious. We can't follow God while following politicians who defy God. We must weed out the false Christians.



Armageddon is said to create peace by killing all but the peacemakers. That's a horrible way to achieve peace. We can conquer the world with peaceful faith, though it seems that the burden is too great. You can't fight a monster without becoming a monster.

 

[pearl]

When 911 happened (Arabs destroyed the World Trade skyscrapers by crashing planes), President W. Bush attacked the wrong country (Iraq was innocent of terrorism). Then W. Bush made a torture camp to torture false confessions (to justify his war), and told a few Congressmen/women, but intentionally withheld torture camp intel from the American people and the world. Cuba was chosen in order to evade international treaties against torture, which did apply anyway. About 1,000,000 Iraqis were murdered, and some were innocent women and children. Rumsfeld lied about carpet bombs (1/2 diameter craters) not killing civilians when dropped near cities.

Actually Bush retaliated for 9,11 by attacking Afghanistan. Iraq was Cheney's brainchild, for the oil. Bush orchestrated the false accusation that Iraq had 'weapons of mass destruction.' Both the media and the American people [save a few} and Congress failed miserably to question the motives and legality of a presumptive war. And the rest, well, 'what a web we weave...'.

 

[Thief]

for respect of the Carpenter ....I refrain to label myself Christian
His call
not mine

but to answer the op.....it is written
Beware the Sons of God
for They are peacemakers

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That God commanded Samuel to appear is inferred from the fact that he did appear. Otherwise he wouldn't have done.

Grief... it was a demon!

“The dead know nothing.” Their “thoughts perish.” At death they, like Adam, “return to the ground.” (Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:3-4) How much clearer does it need to be?

If there really were an immediate afterlife, why didn’t Jehovah God tell Adam? That would be a lie by omission.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If the soul is not eternal there is no resurrection.

You’ve got that backwards: that’s why there is a Resurrection. To bring it back to life.

Since you apparently eschew JW’s, here’s a non-JW website that discusses this topic (although I don’t endorse it 100%):

The Hereafter

 

[37818]

Now the second issue is this: resurrection must infer an eternal soul, . . .

The soul is not eternal for the lost. Jesus taugth killing the body does not kill the soul, but in "hell" both the resurrected body and the soul will perish, Matthew 10:28. Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:7-8.
What does not die is called their "worm [ is sinular not plural]," Mark 9:48.
A soul will die because of sin, Ezekiel 18:4, James 5:20.

 

[Deidre]

Reading through this thread, it's been fascinating to read everyone's insights. Context is super important when we analyze Bible verses and not just verses before/after a single verse, but who says it, who it is being said to (and why), any cultural/historical significance and the overall meaning that we are to take away from it.

I didn't come into this thread to say that, though. As I understand the term ''peace,'' it doesn't necessarily mean a lack of conflict or turmoil, it means that in despite of the turmoil...we are to be peacemakers. Nothing happens overnight, it takes time. Violence will only beget more violence, while love begets more love. Not overnight, but over time.

But, I don't see peacemaker as being synonymous with pacifism. Being a ''peacemaker'' and non-violent, doesn't mean that we are to be passive - meaning we are still called by God to get involved with injustices, not passively sit by ''peacefully'' and not help with justice issues when we are able.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

I think we are nearing Armageddon, so world peace is not an option at this time.