Christians only: is casting lots/cleromancy a sin?

[an anarchist]

There are numerous Bible verses which explicitly say do not take part in divination. Yet there are numerous Bible passages in which it seems that the act of drawing lots to determine God’s will is approved.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Yet in the Old Testament and New Testament, the drawing of lots is used. Below is the passage where the Disciples of Jesus are drawing lots in order to decide who will take Judas’s place.

Acts 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


This site which usually offers Christian apologetics had an unsatisfying answer to my question.
What was the practice of casting lots? | GotQuestions.org
“we have the Holy Spirit and the Bible so we don’t cast lots”

I use the Confucian text the I Ching when I pray. It is a fortune telling book, and I feel that I am practicing divination in a correct manner, a manner in which I am not sinning. I believe if fortune telling is a sin is dependent on who you are going to for answers. I intend to go to God / my inner spirit when I practice cleromancy. I believe it becomes a sin if you try to get answers through another route that is not through God. I feel the I Ching is a text which reveres God.
Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

 

[PureX]

My question is; why do you care? Are you struggling with the Bible as the literal, infallible word of God? Or are you troubled by others thinking so?

Because the obvious answer is that the Bible was written by men. Lots of different men, in different times and places and under different cultural circumstances. So of course some of the things they wrote will contradict. Or will appear to contradict if taken too literally.

 

[pearl]

I don't think casting lots is the same as divination.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't recommend gotquestions org. May as well ask "What would be the most patronizing and curiosity killing answer to my question?"

Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

Divination, as I understand it, comes from the Etruscan civilization and involves using entrails of animals plus the cardinal directions and a calendar. It is a complex system of interpretation performed by highly trained experts. Casting lots is its grand opposite, the complete rebuttal of it. To cast lots is to reject the will of the gods. To cast lots is also to take a risk yourself, so you can't use it to safely assert your own authority and wisdom. You can't for example pretend to be God's own voice on Earth if you depend upon casting lots. Those dice will hurt you as soon as help you.

 

[halbhh]

There are numerous Bible verses which explicitly say do not take part in divination. Yet there are numerous Bible passages in which it seems that the act of drawing lots to determine God’s will is approved.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Yet in the Old Testament and New Testament, the drawing of lots is used. Below is the passage where the Disciples of Jesus are drawing lots in order to decide who will take Judas’s place.

Acts 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


This site which usually offers Christian apologetics had an unsatisfying answer to my question.
What was the practice of casting lots? | GotQuestions.org
“we have the Holy Spirit and the Bible so we don’t cast lots”

I use the Confucian text the I Ching when I pray. It is a fortune telling book, and I feel that I am practicing divination in a correct manner, a manner in which I am not sinning. I believe if fortune telling is a sin is dependent on who you are going to for answers. I intend to go to God / my inner spirit when I practice cleromancy. I believe it becomes a sin if you try to get answers through another route that is not through God. I feel the I Ching is a text which reveres God.
Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

Of course when they prayed to God to choose and then cast the lots, they had prayed for God to control the outcome of the roll, divinely, a small miracle. If they had cast lots without prayer (or without an equivalent such as the unusual presence of the Spirit at that very moment in power), then lacking the reliance on God in that case, it would have not been rightful way.

 

[Redemptionsong]

There are numerous Bible verses which explicitly say do not take part in divination. Yet there are numerous Bible passages in which it seems that the act of drawing lots to determine God’s will is approved.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Yet in the Old Testament and New Testament, the drawing of lots is used. Below is the passage where the Disciples of Jesus are drawing lots in order to decide who will take Judas’s place.

Acts 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


This site which usually offers Christian apologetics had an unsatisfying answer to my question.
What was the practice of casting lots? | GotQuestions.org
“we have the Holy Spirit and the Bible so we don’t cast lots”

I use the Confucian text the I Ching when I pray. It is a fortune telling book, and I feel that I am practicing divination in a correct manner, a manner in which I am not sinning. I believe if fortune telling is a sin is dependent on who you are going to for answers. I intend to go to God / my inner spirit when I practice cleromancy. I believe it becomes a sin if you try to get answers through another route that is not through God. I feel the I Ching is a text which reveres God.
Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

IMO, casting lots was not seen as divination, and there is a suggestion that the 'Urim and Thummim', held by the Jewish High Priest, were objects used to gain divine guidance. Maybe a simple,Yes, or No!

The casting of lots is no longer necessary, IMO, because under the new covenant we have direct access to God through Christ. Our prayers should reach the heart of God!

 

[Estro Felino]

I believe it was a way to say that magic doesn't exist.

 

[Deeje]

There are numerous Bible verses which explicitly say do not take part in divination. Yet there are numerous Bible passages in which it seems that the act of drawing lots to determine God’s will is approved.

I believe that this question is the same as asking “what is the difference between a miracle and magic?”.....the answer has to do with the source of the power behind the result.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

All forms of divination, of the sort practised in Canaan, are condemned. So the divination that the Bible warns against are those which are hijacked by the devil to mislead the unwary. This agent of evil is more than willing to use “magic” to achieve his deceptions.....he is identified as one who can “transform himself into an angel of light”...so his activities will not appear to be harmful.....they can appear to be beneficial and even engender a feeling of being “special” in receiving God’s special attention, doing something that is not commonly seen in others.

Yet in the Old Testament and New Testament, the drawing of lots is used. Below is the passage where the Disciples of Jesus are drawing lots in order to decide who will take Judas’s place.

In all instances, the casting of lots was used under divine direction....not to dictate everyday activities, but in discerning the will of God in making important decisions. This was done under the Jewish system but not seen commonly in the Christian arrangement. In fact, once the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, there was no longer a need for the casting of lots. God’s spirit from then on directed the actions and activities of the Christian congregations.

I use the Confucian text the I Ching when I pray. It is a fortune telling book, and I feel that I am practicing divination in a correct manner, a manner in which I am not sinning. I believe if fortune telling is a sin is dependent on who you are going to for answers. I intend to go to God / my inner spirit when I practice cleromancy. I believe it becomes a sin if you try to get answers through another route that is not through God. I feel the I Ching is a text which reveres God.

Since your use of cleromancy is not connected to Christianity, it would be interpreted by me to be something that would not have God’s approval.
All things decided upon by the Christians after Pentecost was by means of God’s spirit directly guiding Christ’s disciples.

Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

The times and circumstances dictated what was used to determine the will of God. Israel was God’s chosen nation for the reason he gave Abraham his promise...to produce his Messiah from his lineage. After that seed of promise arrived, the Jewish leaders had led God’s people away from God by their inclusion of man made traditions rather than following God’s word to the letter.

The Christian arrangement after Pentecost, was led directly by God’s spirit....so from my perspective, casting lots in this day and age is against the Holy Spirit, which is the only means that Jesus uses to direct his servants on earth. He promised that this “helper” would be the prime mover in directing Christian activities thereafter. Having said that, it is also important to understand that the same kind of apostasy that led Israel off the path, was foretold to do the same to Christianity. The devil is identified as the one who would hijack “Christianity” by introducing a convincing counterfeit.....adding things that Jesus never taught.

I don’t believe that Jesus ever mentioned any kind of cleromancy as something that his disciples would need to employ......given the warning in Deuteronomy 18.....we need to be very careful about who is behind such things. Satan can deceive by any means that work....all he needs is for us to believe his deceptions.

 

[robocop (actually)]

There are numerous Bible verses which explicitly say do not take part in divination. Yet there are numerous Bible passages in which it seems that the act of drawing lots to determine God’s will is approved.

Deuteronomy 18:9-12 ESV

“When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Yet in the Old Testament and New Testament, the drawing of lots is used. Below is the passage where the Disciples of Jesus are drawing lots in order to decide who will take Judas’s place.

Acts 1
20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:

“‘May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,’

and,

“‘May another take his place of leadership.’

21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”

23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.


This site which usually offers Christian apologetics had an unsatisfying answer to my question.
What was the practice of casting lots? | GotQuestions.org
“we have the Holy Spirit and the Bible so we don’t cast lots”

I use the Confucian text the I Ching when I pray. It is a fortune telling book, and I feel that I am practicing divination in a correct manner, a manner in which I am not sinning. I believe if fortune telling is a sin is dependent on who you are going to for answers. I intend to go to God / my inner spirit when I practice cleromancy. I believe it becomes a sin if you try to get answers through another route that is not through God. I feel the I Ching is a text which reveres God.
Is divination a sin? Can we use divination such as casting lots in the present? If not, why were others of the Bible able to do it?

I don't know I pick my radio and tv stations with a random number generator and my chess openings.

 

[an anarchist]

In all instances, the casting of lots was used under divine direction....not to dictate everyday activities, but in discerning the will of God in making important decisions. This was done under the Jewish system but not seen commonly in the Christian arrangement. In fact, once the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, there was no longer a need for the casting of lots. God’s spirit from then on directed the actions and activities of the Christian congregations.

The very fact that we have the Holy Spirit within us, doesn’t that make us able to access divine direction? The I Ching relies on accessing the Holy Spirit.
When I practice cleromancy, I intend to use it for important decisions and not mundane every day activities. Yet sometimes it allows me to have a conversation with God which is a relationship that I take comfort in.

The times and circumstances dictated what was used to determine the will of God. Israel was God’s chosen nation for the reason he gave Abraham his promise...to produce his Messiah from his lineage. After that seed of promise arrived, the Jewish leaders had led God’s people away from God by their inclusion of man made traditions rather than following God’s word to the letter.

The Christian arrangement after Pentecost, was led directly by God’s spirit....so from my perspective, casting lots in this day and age is against the Holy Spirit, which is the only means that Jesus uses to direct his servants on earth. He promised that this “helper” would be the prime mover in directing Christian activities thereafter.

I don’t see the argument against casting lots. The fact that the disciples and other Bible figures cast lots I think sets a precedent. You say the times and circumstances dictate what is used to determine the will of God. Well, the present times gives all followers of Christ access to the I Ching. Can you see it? The beauty it would be if all followers were using the I Ching, having God direct their lives in this direct way. The positive fruits that would come from such a thing!

 

[Deeje]

The very fact that we have the Holy Spirit within us, doesn’t that make us able to access divine direction? The I Ching relies on accessing the Holy Spirit.

God’s spirit will not co-exist with practices of divination that are condemned in the Scriptures. I believe that you are in touch with veiled dark forces which are filling a need in you.

What is I Ching? These are the definitions that I have gleaned from internet sources....

“I Ching (易經) is an ancient form of Chinese cosmology and philosophy. According to Professor Timothy Eliot Stokes, the practice of I Ching is also one of the most dangerous forms of existential exploration. ... Practitioners of I Ching can reach a higher state of being through the use of six I Ching wands.”

“The I Ching emerged in China as a fortune-telling manual at least three thousand years ago. It began, so the story goes, with eight three-lined symbols called trigrams, which represented all of the fundamental phenomena in the universe.”

“I Ching divination is one of the most popular Chinese forms of the forecast. It can predict the human fate for the next 500 years or the last 500 years. Besides that, it can be used for answering most of the questions of the humanity.”

Now, I am not sure how well educated you are in Christianity, but neither Christ’s teachings, nor in Judaism before it has scripture that approves of this type of divination. To me, (as a Bible teacher of many years) it clearly comes under the definition of that which was forbidden to God’s worshippers detailed in Deuteronomy 18:9-12. I do not see God as the source of its predictive power....but a deceptive power trying to lead you down the wrong path by giving you something that appeals to your spiritual nature, but that I believe is placing you in grave danger.

When I practice cleromancy, I intend to use it for important decisions and not mundane every day activities. Yet sometimes it allows me to have a conversation with God which is a relationship that I take comfort in.

Again, the feeling of comfort you are getting may be “the angel of light” promoting a false sense of security. Con artists are good at making you trust them. Satan is the quintessential con artist.

I don’t see the argument against casting lots. The fact that the disciples and other Bible figures cast lots I think sets a precedent. You say the times and circumstances dictate what is used to determine the will of God. Well, the present times gives all followers of Christ access to the I Ching. Can you see it?

No.....unfortunately, all I see is someone who wants to keep doing what he is doing as the “pay-off” you seem to be getting from this practice is feeding a need in you.

Because you are disobeying a direct command of God, your practice of divination will take you away from God, rather than gaining access to him. The “god” you are are obeying is the arch enemy of the true God and is deceiving you....IMO.

You will not know until the judgment that you were misled because God will not interfere with your free willed choice to engage in this kind of activity. All he will do is warn you, as I believe he is doing now. But your choices are yours to make. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

The beauty it would be if all followers were using the I Ching, having God direct their lives in this direct way. The positive fruits that would come from such a thing!

The “beauty” is already a reality for my global brotherhood right now.....we already enjoy the kind of peace and unity that is not seen anywhere else in the world......but the ultimate reality will never be fulfilled except by the means that Jesus told his disciples to share with all who would listen.....God’s incoming Kingdom. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Do you have any idea what God’s Kingdom is.....and what it will accomplish for mankind on this earth in the future? If you did, you would understand why it alone will solve all of mankind’s woes....Jesus gave his life so that we could enjoy the benefits of life under the rulership of that Kingdom.

The “beauty” will be in the reality of that Kingdom....it’s what Jesus taught his disciples to pray for.....for God’s Kingdom to “come” so that God’s will can “be done on earth as it is in heaven”.....can you see that this has not happened yet, and that God has his own timetable of events and we cannot hurry them or by-pass his laws to suit ourselves? You seem to be chasing the same outcome, but I believe that you are trying to achieve it following the deceiver’s methods. He will never lead you to life.....but will take all whom he can deceive, down into oblivion with him.

The choice is yours of course.....but I hope you will investigate the Bible’s teachings more thoroughly....in my experience, all the right answers are in there.