• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians only; How literally do you take the Bible?

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I disagree, unless, by the term “listening,” you mean the scholastic process of exegesis. It’s through the exegetical process that critical literary analysis tells us what is representative of metaphor, allegory, myth, storytelling, and history.
Perhaps it seemed I was suggesting to never do analysis, not to look for historical context, investigate how to translate words, and so on....?

Let me be sure to be clear about those other ways of reading -- they are often rewarding, in my experience. Always a good practice.


What I'm saying earlier is rather that those analytical and background types of study aren't the first (that is, most key) thing to do.

The most key (most needed, most rewarding) thing to do is to first just read for listening, to read the whole passage first, trying to just listen for the main messages being conveyed. By listening (putting aside analysis, debates, etc.).

Let's see an example:

Suppose your study group reads in John 13 and they read through these verses:

33 “My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

36 Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?”

Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”
==========

So the group reads that. Ok?

So, someone might bring up a discussion about what Christ meant precisely here about how they would 'follow later'. And then that might get involved in various cross referencing, and also perhaps a discussion could happen about being a disciple, and what all the meanings of 'follow' might mean in that time, and so on....

Right?

Ok, now suppose after all the group discussion, many have just forgotten verse 34, and specifically, the wording of verse 34 also....

Would that be ok? Would it be satisfactory?

To avoid that serious loss of not getting the message of verse 34, the reliable way to avoid that mistake and sharp loss is to read first and foremost with a listening attitude, trying to get the main messages.

Before you go off into the analysis stuff.

It's a what-comes-first thing.

Does that help clarify? See, I've done a huge amount of the analysis stuff, and I'm not suggesting to others they should not do what I've done plenty of (analysis), or that I was wasting my time in all the extraneous reading and analysis.

This might help clarify more:
Commonly a typical bible study group does a lot of commentaries and analysis and so on, and people may need help to remember to put first things first, and just read for comprehension. Romans can do that to a group pretty often for example, as from just a dozen verses there will be several topics usually!

I've noticed at times groups I attend get off into side topics (of interest, and valuable), and fail to notice something crucial that is one of the valuable messages in the passage. It happens.

But it's easy to avoid that, by just reading with listening, uncritically (thus without sidetracking your mind on some analysis point).
 
Last edited:

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
What I'm saying earlier is rather that those analytical and background types of study aren't the first (that is, most key) thing to do.
Actually, exegesis is the first step to interpretation. Interpretation follows exegesis. We have to determine what the text is actually saying before we can apply any meaning to it.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Actually, exegesis is the first step to interpretation. Interpretation follows exegesis. We have to determine what the text is actually saying before we can apply any meaning to it.
Sorry I wrote more than just a couple paragraphs, but I swear it's worth the 35 seconds to read the rest above. :)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sorry I wrote more than just a couple paragraphs, but I swear it's worth the 35 seconds to read the rest above. :)
I think you and I may be using the term “analysis” differently. Again, we can’t listen unless we know what we’re listening for. Misunderstanding ancient, foreign texts will lead us down rabbit holes until we shake out the filters we normally listen through.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I think you and I may be using the term “analysis” differently. Again, we can’t listen unless we know what we’re listening for. Misunderstanding ancient, foreign texts will lead us down rabbit holes until we shake out the filters we normally listen through.
Can be. There are more than just a couple of passages where people don't have much of a chance to understand them as intended (the intended meaning) without a lot more context than just the passage.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I think you and I may be using the term “analysis” differently. Again, we can’t listen unless we know what we’re listening for. Misunderstanding ancient, foreign texts will lead us down rabbit holes until we shake out the filters we normally listen through.

So, having agreed on what you said there (just above just now), let me ask you about the John 13 passage example in post #81, and the observation after it.

I'm relaying what I've seen happen more than just once or twice, in a group: it's easy to get side tracked. Know what I mean?

So, is the main thing I'm saying more evident now, once you read to the end of post #81?

The reason we need to initially read just for overall comprehension.
In a way, what I'm saying is pretty standard, basic. But there is a bit more to it also: about how to listen -- about our attitude.

We need the attitude that Christ for instance has something to teach us, so that we can hear what He is saying.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So, having agreed on what you said there (just above just now), let me ask you about the John 13 passage example in post #81, and the observation after it.

I'm relaying what I've seen happen more than just once or twice, in a group: it's easy to get side tracked. Know what I mean?

So, is the main thing I'm saying more evident now, once you read to the end of post #81?

The reason we need to initially read just for overall comprehension.
In a way, what I'm saying is pretty standard, basic. But there is a bit more to it also: about how to listen -- about our attitude.

We need the attitude that Christ for instance has something to teach us, so that we can hear what He is saying.
What you’re talking about is the educational concept of whole/part/whole learning. Of course we begin with the entire passage in context to “get the sense.” But we need to move quickly to an exegesis so that our preconceived notions don’t get in our way. Otherwise we have to spend time deconstructing our assumptions which will get in the way of a reasonable interpretation.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I read the Bible with the view it is intended to be read with 100% literal belief. On this site, at least, this appears to be a minority opinion. I’m curious about the thinking that it is not 100% literal. Some Christians believe that Jesus died and was literally resurrected three days later. Yet they won’t believe the literal account of the flood, for example. What metric is used in deciding what is to be literally believed and what is not? If you don’t believe one part of the Bible, why do you believe the other?

Literal... All words of Jesus!
John 6
.... "I tell the Truth.. You MUST eat my flesh and drink my blood to have eternal life".... "My flesh is real food my blood is real drink"!.. "Whoever eat my flesh has eternal life"!

"The words I HAVE SPOKEN (past tense) are Spirit & Life"!
"The Spirit gives life"!
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
But we need to move quickly to an exegesis so that our preconceived notions don’t get in our way.
Yes, and...no. In exegesis as much as anything else, a person can just bring in their own preconceived notions!

But in the 'listening' I'm trying to point out -- it's hard to explain! -- the only way to do it is precisely to instead think that we don't know all there is already (even if I've read a book 4 times, including with extensive commentaries and other analysis and exegeses, etc.), and instead have in yourself the attitude that Christ could teach you something.

To have the attitude you could learn something from God.


If I can do that, reorient my intellect to become a student, to learn from Christ the main message He is teaching, then I may take it in even if it is an uncomfortable verse I could have otherwise skimmed past looking for some other analysis etc, (for example, like this one: "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

The only real guard against a person's own ad-hoc preconceived notions is only that humble listening, so that we can't avoid what the words are plainly saying without doing mental gymnastics to avoid the meaning....

If we are really listening, we end up hearing even the uncomfortable verses we might wish were not there.

See, exegesis won't make me able to learn from God (from the ineffable) necessarily, but listening makes it possible to learn from Him!
 
Last edited:

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yes, and...no. In exegesis as much as anything else, a person can just bring in their own preconceived notions!

But in the 'listening' I'm trying to point out -- it's hard to explain! -- the only way to do it is precisely to instead think that we don't know all there is already (even if I've read a book 4 times, including with extensive commentaries and other analysis and exegeses, etc.), and instead have in yourself the attitude that Christ could teach you something.

To have the attitude you could learn something from God.


If I can do that, reorient my intellect to become a student, to learn from Christ the main message He is teaching, then I may take it in even if it is an uncomfortable verse I could have otherwise skimmed past looking for some other analysis etc, (for example, like this one: "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,"

The only real guard against a person's own ad-hoc preconceived notions is only that humble listening, so that we can't avoid what the words are plainly saying without doing mental gymnastics to avoid the meaning....

If we are really listening, we end up hearing even the uncomfortable verses we might wish were not there.

See, exegesis won't make me able to learn from God (from the ineffable) necessarily, but listening makes it possible to learn from Him!
This is where you and I take different paths. I don’t bring God into the equation until I have a very good idea of what the text says. Then I interpret. Different means to the same end, I suppose…
 

TreeOfLife

Member
I read the Bible with the view it is intended to be read with 100% literal belief. On this site, at least, this appears to be a minority opinion. I’m curious about the thinking that it is not 100% literal. Some Christians believe that Jesus died and was literally resurrected three days later. Yet they won’t believe the literal account of the flood, for example. What metric is used in deciding what is to be literally believed and what is not? If you don’t believe one part of the Bible, why do you believe the other?
I read the Bible with the view it is intended to be read with 100% literal belief. On this site, at least, this appears to be a minority opinion. I’m curious about the thinking that it is not 100% literal. Some Christians believe that Jesus died and was literally resurrected three days later. Yet they won’t believe the literal account of the flood, for example. What metric is used in deciding what is to be literally believed and what is not? If you don’t believe one part of the Bible, why do you believe the other?
 

TreeOfLife

Member
Sorry for the last 2 I had to power cycle my phone to fix.
I too believe in the literal Bible. I know many think there are contrary verses and I agree. With that said I do not believe that you should be using outside the word techniques to interpret what is written in its pages.
I also believe that there is a multi tier layering of importance. I.e . The words in red. Also there is an historical difference when the 3 synoptic gospels were written and the book of John.
There is that one addition that I can determine in the NT. That is the johnnes comma.
I do not agree with interpretations that come from theologians as in the trinity unless you are talking John 14.20. I do not believe that the Bible is so hard to understand that you have to know how to study in order to draw conclusions.

But the biggest thing I yearn for is Eph 4.13. That needs to happen and needs to happen soon. G-ds true love. No sarcasm, no calling groups a cult, no adding on theology to make or prove salvation, etc.

I do believe in repentance. But Christian. What sin has Christ not died for. **mod edit**
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Sorry for the last 2 I had to power cycle my phone to fix.
I too believe in the literal Bible. I know many think there are contrary verses and I agree. With that said I do not believe that you should be using outside the word techniques to interpret what is written in its pages.
I also believe that there is a multi tier layering of importance. I.e . The words in red. Also there is an historical difference when the 3 synoptic gospels were written and the book of John.
There is that one addition that I can determine in the NT. That is the johnnes comma.
I do not agree with interpretations that come from theologians as in the trinity unless you are talking John 14.20. I do not believe that the Bible is so hard to understand that you have to know how to study in order to draw conclusions.

But the biggest thing I yearn for is Eph 4.13. That needs to happen and needs to happen soon. G-ds true love. No sarcasm, no calling groups a cult, no adding on theology to make or prove salvation, etc.

I do believe in repentance. But Christian. What sin has Christ not died for. **mod edit**
TreeOfLife I must question your idea... You believe in the literal Bible.

John 6:63 "The words I HAVE spoken are spirit and life!" Have spoke.. Past Tense!
TreeOfLife Question... What are the words Jesus spoke?

They are the words that came before verse 63..... From.... 45.. The TEACHING of God.. To verse 59!
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
.

TreeOfLife These ABOVE are the words that give life; the TEACHING!... These are the words Jesus spoke that give life! Note verse 52.. These people do NOT believe Jesus is God! They do NOT accept the teaching of God they say Jesus is but a man!

TreeOfLife Question... Do you believe the Teaching!? Do you believe literally? Christians have always believed Jesus is God; they have always drank the blood of Jesus, they have always eaten his flesh!
 

TreeOfLife

Member
TreeOfLife I must question your idea... You believe in the literal Bible.

John 6:63 "The words I HAVE spoken are spirit and life!" Have spoke.. Past Tense!
TreeOfLife Question... What are the words Jesus spoke?

I read kjv. The word is speak present tense
Cant put in color from my phone


They are the words that came before verse 63..... From.... 45.. The TEACHING of God.. To verse 59!
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.” 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
.

TreeOfLife These ABOVE are the words that give life; the TEACHING!... These are the words Jesus spoke that give life! Note verse 52.. These people do NOT believe Jesus is God! They do NOT accept the teaching of God they say Jesus is but a man!

TreeOfLife Question... Do you believe the Teaching!? Do you believe literally? Christians have always believed Jesus is God; they have always drank the blood of Jesus, they have always eaten his flesh!

So. Let me understand. Jesus lied in rev 3.14
Again in John 12.50. Yes Jesus/jehovah. God of the old Testament state he had a maker in Isaiah 45.11

Again Jesus lied again in John 20.21 and John 20.17

Sorry but I think you only believe what your pastors have taught you your whole life.

I read the words on tje pages and believe what they say. I also put more weight on what Jesus states then the apostles as in John 13.3 versus mark 28.18.

I could go on but this i know that due to the traditions of man the unity of the faith can never happen.

Question. It sounds like you believe in the trinity. I do not. Again another tradition of man. If you want to discuss this there's another forum on this site
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
TreeOfLife Christians believe Jesus is God.. God cannot lie!

John 14:9
Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

TreeOfLife Anyone who has seen me has seen "GOD"!.

No God cannot lie!

The words of Jesus...
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.


Christians are Blessed! Those who do NOT believe as Thomas does are NOT blessed!

Jesus said.. Word for word.... "My flesh is REAL FOOD! My blood is REAL DRINK!"

Christians drink the blood of Jesus Paul is a Christian!
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
So. Let me understand. Jesus lied in rev 3.14
Again in John 12.50. Yes Jesus/jehovah. God of the old Testament state he had a maker in Isaiah 45.11

Again Jesus lied again in John 20.21 and John 20.17

Sorry but I think you only believe what your pastors have taught you your whole life.

I read the words on tje pages and believe what they say. I also put more weight on what Jesus states then the apostles as in John 13.3 versus mark 28.18.

I could go on but this i know that due to the traditions of man the unity of the faith can never happen.

Question. It sounds like you believe in the trinity. I do not. Again another tradition of man. If you want to discuss this there's another forum on this site
.
TreeOfLife I add to post #95...
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Jews are NOT Christians! The Christian God is almighty.. My God can take any form he wants to take! He took the form of a burning bush, of a pillar of fire and of a Man (Jesus)!
Now today Christians worships Jesus in the form of bread! UNLESS.....

TreeOfLife unless you eat my flesh you have no life in you!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

God cannot lie! Christians are blessed because they believe as Thomas believed! "My Lord and my God"!

Clearly....Those who reject Jesus "As their God" are NOT blessed!

The Jehovah Witness and Mormon have many god's they teach Jesus is just one of many gods! Christians reject JW and Mormon teaching; Christians believe in ONE and only ONE God!
Christians worship Jesus because: Jesus is God! Thomas was a Christian!
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I read the Bible with the view it is intended to be read with 100% literal belief. On this site, at least, this appears to be a minority opinion. I’m curious about the thinking that it is not 100% literal. Some Christians believe that Jesus died and was literally resurrected three days later. Yet they won’t believe the literal account of the flood, for example. What metric is used in deciding what is to be literally believed and what is not? If you don’t believe one part of the Bible, why do you believe the other?
I’d say high 90’s. For example the boom of a Job. I don’t think God and Satan sit around making bets and discussing every evil think satan is allowed to do. Every messenger coming in at the same time also seems a bit much. In short poetic license. Do I believe that Job is real that God has limits on Satans power and that he is mindful of our every suffering yes. Another example 40 days. A common term for many days so maybe some 40’s are a bit more or less.
 

TreeOfLife

Member
.
TreeOfLife I add to post #95...
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

Jews are NOT Christians! The Christian God is almighty.. My God can take any form he wants to take! He took the form of a burning bush, of a pillar of fire and of a Man (Jesus)!
Now today Christians worships Jesus in the form of bread! UNLESS.....

TreeOfLife unless you eat my flesh you have no life in you!
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

God cannot lie! Christians are blessed because they believe as Thomas believed! "My Lord and my God"!

Clearly....Those who reject Jesus "As their God" are NOT blessed!

The Jehovah Witness and Mormon have many god's they teach Jesus is just one of many gods! Christians reject JW and Mormon teaching; Christians believe in ONE and only ONE God!
Christians worship Jesus because: Jesus is God! Thomas was a Christian!
 
Top