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CHRISTIANS ONLY: Do you think that Atheists can go to heaven, as the Pope said?

CHRISTIANS ONLY: Do you think that Atheists can go to heaven, as the Pope said?


  • Total voters
    17

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Yes. I love Pope Francis.
It is obvious that Christianity claims that faith is not what saves us. Altruism gets you to Heaven.
so altruistic atheists will go to Heaven. Selfish Christian won't.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
The Pope didn't say that that atheists are going to Heaven. He was just saying that everyone is redeemed because Christ died for all, including atheists. Redemption and salvation are two different things.
The Pope is simply affirming certain truths that any somewhat knowledgable Catholic will uphold.

First, that Christ died to redeem the whole world. We can distinguish his redemptive work from the acceptance of salvation. He redeemed the whole world. However, many will reject that saving work. In affirming the universality of Christ’s redemptive work we are not universalists. To say that he redeemed the whole world is not to conclude that all will be saved.

Secondly, the Pope is also affirming that all humans are created in God’s image and are therefore created good. Yes, created good, but that goodness is wounded by original sin.

Thirdly, he is affirming that all men and women are obliged to pursue what is beautiful, good and true. Natural virtue is possible–even obligatory, but natural virtue on its own is not sufficient for salvation. Grace is necessary to advance beyond natural virtue to bring the soul to salvation. The Pope does not say atheists being good on their own will be saved. He says they, like all men, are redeemed by Christ’s death and their good works are the starting place where we can meet with them–the implication being “meet with them in an encounter that leads eventually to faith in Christ.
What Pope Francis really said about atheists | CatholicVote.org
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
It's not so much what a person believed in life, but how much truth was available to them and the circumstances of their relationship with that truth. This is something only God can judge.

Deliberate refusal of Christ in knowledge of the truth will result in loss. But not all atheists are necessarily committing this.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The Pope didn't say that that atheists are going to Heaven. He was just saying that everyone is redeemed because Christ died for all, including atheists. Redemption and salvation are two different things.

Well, the Catholic Church is going to become more and more Pelagian. I can assure you that; trust me, I live in Italy so I know what I am talking about. I listen to what Bishops, cardinals say every day on Italian television.

By the way, even this Australian Cardinal says that Atheists can go to Heaven:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riF9pbMLmHY

Atheism is not a sin. Greed and money-hunger are. Illuminati and Bankers are the enemies of Christianity. Certainly not Atheists
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Well, the Catholic Church is going to become more and more Pelagian. I can assure you that; trust me, I live in Italy so I know what I am talking about. I listen to what Bishops, cardinals say every day on Italian television.

By the way, even this Australian Cardinal says that Atheists can go to Heaven:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riF9pbMLmHY

Atheism is not a sin. Greed and money-hunger are. Illuminati and Bankers are the enemies of Christianity. Certainly not Atheists

He did not say that atheists will go to heaven. What he said was more or less said the same thing as I did.

Further, atheism is a sin. However, as I and the cardinal said; the circumstances of a person's atheism can diminish moral culpability.

An atheist is not automatically lost, but they cannot be saved purely by virtue of their good works. All must accept Christ's offer.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
He did not say that atheists will go to heaven. What he said was more or less said the same thing as I did.

Further, atheism is a sin. However, as I and the cardinal said; the circumstances of a person's atheism can diminish moral culpability.

I am sorry, sir. But he did say what Pelagians think about salvation.
That is, first that Atheism is not an evil act, so is not a sin.
secondly, he clearly and explicitly said that Atheists can certainly go to Heaven, as long as they are good and believe in truth (and justice)

By the way, the Gospel says: You have to worship the Lord in spirit and in Truth
that means you have to be Christian through deeds, not through useless prayers of adoration, that sometimes become mere foot-licking
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Well, the Catholic Church is going to become more and more Pelagian. I can assure you that; trust me, I live in Italy so I know what I am talking about. I listen to what Bishops, cardinals say every day on Italian television.

By the way, even this Australian Cardinal says that Atheists can go to Heaven:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riF9pbMLmHY

Atheism is not a sin. Greed and money-hunger are. Illuminati and Bankers are the enemies of Christianity. Certainly not Atheists

The Church will never be Pelagian as that's a heresy.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Hay85 said:
I am sorry, sir. But he did say what Pelagians think about salvation.

I quote

"When an atheist dies they will be judged on the extent on which they have moved towards goodness, truth and beauty."

What he is saying here is that God will take into account how much truth was available to them and their sincere search for the truth. He is not saying their good works will save them.

Hay85 said:
That is, first that Atheism is not an evil act, so is not a sin.

Sin is anything whatsoever that results in the failure to live to the moral standard expected by God. Conscious atheism certainly falls within that.

Catechism 2125 said:
Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion. The imputability of this offense can be significantly diminished in virtue of the intentions and the circumstances. "Believers can have more than a little to do with the rise of atheism. To the extent that they are careless about their instruction in the faith, or present its teaching falsely, or even fail in their religious, moral, or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than to reveal the true nature of God and of religion."

Hay85 said:
By the way, the Gospel says: You have to worship the Lord in spirit and in Truth
that means you have to be Christian through deeds, not through useless prayers of adoration, that sometimes become mere foot-licking

No one denies the necessity of good works.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
And they are heretics who can be excommunicated.

I think it's not reasonable to believe in Saint Paul's stuff. He says very anti-Christian things, like:
- Man is born with original sin (silly superstition)
- That Man can't do but sin (This is even sillier, given that there is free will, and you can decide not to sin)
- That all men need God's grace to be saved. (Not all: if a person is sinless doesn't need any God's grace. Nobody forces you to hurt the others)

Lots of Catholic priests are taking consciousness that these are nonsense, that were for justifying the birth of Protestantism
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
I think it's not reasonable to believe in Saint Paul's stuff. He says very anti-Christian things, like:
- Man is born with original sin (silly superstition)
- That Man can't do but sin (This is even sillier, given that there is free will, and you can decide not to sin)
- That all men need God's grace to be saved. (Not all: if a person is sinless doesn't need any God's grace. Nobody forces you to hurt the others)

Lots of Catholic priests are taking consciousness that these are nonsense, that were for justifying the birth of Protestantism

You're a heretic. You're not going to convince us to agree with your heresy.
 

McNap

Member
I voted yes, for in John 12:47 Jesus said: And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Some people can not believe, but as long as you listen to Jesus you will be clean through the word he has spoken unto you. For the same reason the apostles were clean (see John 15:3)

Luke 22:32 states that the apostles yet weren't converted in Jesus' days on earth. They were just clean by the word he had spoken unto them.

As long as you listen to Jesus even without faith in him, Jesus will consider it as no offensive against him, but it will be an offensive to stop listening.

So I think it also depends on how you interpret the word ATHEISM.
To some A stands for ANTI as in ANTI THEISM.
To others ATHEISM doesn't mean you are against theism, but just not theistic.
 
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Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I believe many atheists will go to Heaven, just as I believe that many Christians are probably in danger of Hell. As long as the atheist in question is of good, upstanding moral character, doesn't actively reject God and at least remains open to the possibility of His existence, I see no barriers.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
I think it's not reasonable to believe in Saint Paul's stuff. He says very anti-Christian things, like:
- Man is born with original sin (silly superstition)
- That Man can't do but sin (This is even sillier, given that there is free will, and you can decide not to sin)
St. Paul doesn't say any of these things.

- That all men need God's grace to be saved. (Not all: if a person is sinless doesn't need any God's grace. Nobody forces you to hurt the others)
So what, are you Pelagian, believing that we can go through life without committing even so much as a single tiny little sin? Do you think that we don't need God to be saved?
 
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John Martin

Active Member
Only what God creates will go back to heaven. What God has created is already saved and already in heaven. It is a matter of realizing this truth. Our ego is not created by God. It is an artificial entity formed like a cloud. A cloud has no substance. it will evaporate. Hence our ego cannot go to heaven or God because it is not created by God. There is something in us beyond the ego,which directly comes from God. We call this 'the image and likeness of God'. Its nature is like the Moon. Just like the Moon receives from the Sun( symbol of God) so also our image and likeness of God, only receives from God and gives. it is already like God. This is not something personal. It is universal. Those who believe in God and do not believe in God still belong to the ego, the cloud consciousness. Those who do good works and compassionate to others may feel love in their hearts even if they do not believe in God. They are close to the energy of God like thin white clouds. But we need to go beyond the clouds and discover our image and likeness of God then we discover we are not individuals but the whole of humanity manifested by God and we are already in God. Hence what is created or manifested by God is already in heaven, in God. Both those who believe in God and who do not believe in God need to discover that.
 
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