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[Christians ONLY] Can Christians be prochoice?

Sitara

New Member
So I am a prochoice Christian, and I want to debate Christians about whether I am a contradiction or not. I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I know the Bible rather well.
There is no Scriptural reason to oppose elective abortion.

Assuming that is what you meant by "pro-choice".
Tom
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
So I am a prochoice Christian, and I want to debate Christians about whether I am a contradiction or not. I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.

Since I believe that life begins at conception, there is no reason to define life as brainwaves. What about heartbeat?

When does God believe that life begins......? It's his process, so when does it begin in his eyes? How can it not be at conception?

How do you come to your conclusion?
 

Sitara

New Member
I know the Bible rather well.
There is no Scriptural reason to oppose elective abortion.

Assuming that is what you meant by "pro-choice".
Tom
I meant abortion and consensual assisted suicide. I can't have children, but I feel I have the right to choose how and when I die, unless Jesus says otherwise.
 

Sitara

New Member
Since I believe that life begins at conception, there is no reason to define life as brainwaves. What about heartbeat?

When does God believe that life begins......? It's his process, so when does it begin in his eyes? How can it not be at conception?

How do you come to your conclusion?
Show me what Jesus said about abortion.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So I am a prochoice Christian, and I want to debate Christians about whether I am a contradiction or not. I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.
I think the question should be "Does God agree with my position". Having a free will, you can do just about anything.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.
Why brainwaves?
Isn't that rather arbitrary?

I avoid the word "personhood" in discussions about abortion. It's just too subjective.

I oppose human beings choosing death for other human beings. That includes everything from environmental degradation to capital punishment to pre-emptive war to elective abortion.

I am, however, extremely pro-choice. I firmly support everybody's right to choose not to engage in behavior that could result in pregnancy, if they don't want to become a parent.
Tom
 

PureX

Veteran Member
So I am a prochoice Christian, and I want to debate Christians about whether I am a contradiction or not. I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.
It's much easier then that. To be pro-choice simply means that one believes humans have the right to choose for themselves whether they will carry through a pregnancy. Being pro-choice does not inhibit any Christian from choosing to carry their own pregnancies through to birth based on their faith. So ANY Christian can be pro-choice, because being pro-choice does not necessitate being pro-abortion.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Show me what Jesus said about abortion.

Did Jesus speak about abortion? Is a foetus a life? Show me where Jesus says that brain function determines life?

Many women miscarry and don't even know it. Spontaneous abortion is not the intentional terminating of a human life. So it has to get down to the reason for the termination. It is a conscience issue and personally, if it was not life threatening to the mother, I see no legitimate reason for termination, regardless of the gestation time....it's still a human life.

I have a friend who had a late pregnancy and she was advised to terminate because the doctor was sure that the baby had Downs Syndrome. She could not bring herself to end that baby's life just because it might be an inconvenience to them. So after a stressful pregnancy anticipating the worst, she gave birth to a healthy baby boy. On the wrong advice she could have killed a perfectly healthy baby. How many other women are given that kind of advice?

Why do you believe that human life only begins with brain activity? What did Jesus say about that?
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Questions of brain waves, ensoulment and the words of Scripture are misdirections. The historical Christian view has always condemned abortion per se as a gravely evil act. Thus, Christian opposition to abortion isn't (as some here claim) a modern contrivance. What is modern are Christians who rationalize and defend the deliberate taking of innocent human life.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
To be pro-choice simply means that one believes humans have the right to choose for themselves whether they will carry through a pregnancy.

I don't think so.
I see what is usually called "pro-choice" as kinda the opposite. It's "pro-feticide" . Using feticide to unChoose a choice that was already made.
Tom
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I don't think so.
I see what is usually called "pro-choice" as kinda the opposite. It's "pro-feticide" . Using feticide to unChoose a choice that was already made.
Tom
No one is "pro-feticide". No one is advocating for the killing of human fetuses for the sake of killing them. And no one thinks an abortion is a good solution to an unwanted pregnancy. But unwanted pregnancies do occur, and they are not occurring by anyone's deliberate choice. So the question of what to do about such a circumstance exists.

The reason for the disagreement regarding abortion is over who gets to decided who can have an abortion and under what circumstances, not whether or not abortion is good or bad. Clearly, you are assuming that you should have that right even though it's not you who must carry the fetus to term, it's not you who will raise the child when born, and it's not you who fertilized the egg to create the fetus. But a lot of other people disagree that you should have that right. They believe the mother that must carry the fetus to term should have that right since she must do so within her own body. While others believe that she has the right to terminate the pregnancy, but only in the very early stages, before the fetus can reasonably be deemed a human being. And it's because there are a number of differing opinions about how to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, and about who should have the right to make those decisions, that most Americans believe in allowing limited freedom of choice to the mother, with some even more limited input from the father.

"Pro-choice" means exactly what it says: favoring the woman's (limited) right to choose whether or not she will carry a pregnancy through within her own body.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
That last post is largely false. The first Christians would have been raised in the Jewish belief that human life begins at birth. Later the church was influenced by pagan philosophers, some of whom held that it began at conception, some at quickening; the last was the view of St Thomas. I read the other day that St Hildegard's herbal included abortifacients! The Catholic doctrine that life begins at conception only became official in the 19th century.
Someone forgot to tell this 21week old baby in the womb that he isn't a person yet when he held the surgeons hand.

Screen Shot 2018-10-27 at 8.10.52 PM.png
 
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robocop (actually)

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So I am a prochoice Christian, and I want to debate Christians about whether I am a contradiction or not. I believe personhood and rights becin when the fetus first has brainwaves.
That's interesting, I was recently wondering if it should be at the brain level. Now I somewhat am pro-choice and if that offends you please don't read the next paragraph.

I think Christians should believe that the Mercy of Christ should apply to those who don't know better, deplorable or not. Why should I legislate what other people should have to believe when it could come back and bite me in the toosh. The Mercy of Christ applies to the innocent. I have met a woman who had no psychological repercussions for doing it and I'm pretty sure she's not Christian.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Show me what Jesus said about taking cocaine.
"And the Lord did lay forth a line upon the table, and his disciples did raise their spoons on high and partake, one followed by the other, until they were all thoroughly convinced of the truth of the matter, whatever that was." 4 Jn. 1:25
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
a member said:
This post was removed by the RF staff
This simply isn't true. The earliest Christian writings which mention the subject unanimously condemn abortion at all stages. See the Didache and the selected quotations of the Church Fathers.

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.
Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

“In our case, murder is once for all forbidden. Therefore, we may not destroy even the fetus in the womb, while as yet the human being derives blood from other parts of the body for sustenance. To hinder a birth is merely a speedier way to kill a human. It does not matter whether you take away a life that has been born, or destroy one that is not yet born.” – Tertullian (c. 197)
Church Fathers on Abortion

Of course, you can reject the Didache and the Church Fathers. But your claim that opposition to abortion is a modern political contrivance is demonstrably false.
 
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Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
This simply isn't true. The Didache, a first century Christian writing, explicitly condemns abortion.
Apparently that one way to translate it. It says specifically not to kill a child just born, however some translators feel it is against aborting a fetus.
Notes From The Didache On The Early Christian View Of Abortion

Contrary to what this article says Pro Choice does not mean believing abortion is good. It means believing it should not be a matter for law enforcement or a criminal act. Many things that are not good should not be made criminal. Too many Christians are too quick to illegalize sin, thinking that making something illegal is always good. The pro choice position is about the law not a vote for abortion.
 
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