Christians: Natural disasters as punishment for unbelief?

[TheresOnlyNow]

Bad analogy I think. These were not babies. There is nothing in the penalty that gave away how it was to be implemented. Did Adam know that sin would affect all his children? Do we always know the full repercussions of our actions until we see them occurring. We never intended for them to happen but as a far reaching consequence they affected so many others that we never imagined. How much better not to go there?

No, they were fully grown adults. Their intellect was that like unto babies. Pure innocence.
That was abrogated when the first couple acquired a conscious awareness of the differences between good and evil. Which they did not possess before.
They had no comprehension of right and wrong. Because knowing what is right and what is wrong is like unto , per the parlance of the scriptures message in that time, knowing the difference between that which is good and that which is evil.
Children didn't even enter into their consciousness. Because sex didn't enter into their consciousness.
And when they did have kids? What happened between those two brothers? One was good and one was evil.And one exercised a choice to be and act evil against the one that was good and because he was good and beloved by God. It's all a parable. Idioms, metaphor, simile.

No he did not. Lucifer is not a name ever used for the devil in scripture. And according to Ezekiel, the devil was perfect in every way when God created him. He made himself into the devil by his own actions. Do parents give birth to criminals? Or do people become criminals by their own choices?

That's not entirely correct. Are you familiar with the Latin Vulgate?

Do you see what you wrote there? The Devil was perfect in every way when God created him.
That revokes your claim that the Devil could abrogate what a greater power, God, created as perfect.

The war in heaven. I believe, is a relatively recent event, not something that happened thousands of years ago. Satan had free access to heaven and earth until that war occurred. Now he is confined to this earth giving all living humans an opportunity to be led by him down the road to death. He is already on it and he knows it, but in the short time he has left, he will take as many down with him as he can. All future citizens of God's Kingdom will have proven their qualifications for entry under test. If the devil tested Jesus, what makes us think he's going to leave us alone?

The war has already occurred. If not, what you call God's perfect creation in the Devil, would be acting as that perfect creation when he entered into the garden as accounted in Genesis. And tempted Adam and Eve from obedience unto God.
Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan was not barred from heaven when he challenged Job's integrity. God did not protect his angels from satan's influence either....he just allowed him to act as the sieve to filter out those who had no love or loyalty for their Creator, both in heaven and on earth. There will be no rebels in paradise because they will all have been identified before the Kingdom is established on earth. Only the faithful will gain life.

God needs fallen angels to filter out the faithful? God lets Satan prowl the earth like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.

That precludes all those scriptures telling us God is omniscient and that all things are predetermined, preplanned, predestined, by God by his will, and for his glory.
God let Satan destroy all that Job held dear. The only condition God put on Satan's acts against Job was that he was not allowed to take Job's life.

Hmmm seems to be a common fault....

Not in me of course....

I know.

It is impossible for God to commit murder. He is the Law. He is also the originator of life, and the restorer of it. What he did in the OT was what he needed to do for his own reasons at that time. There is nothing he did that cannot be undone. He can orchestrate complete reversals.This is why he can allow everything to play out naturally. We are all choosing our own destiny.

What he did in the OT, before the Deluge, was destroy his enemies using the Hebrews as the weapon.
That's not allowing everything to play out naturally.
Everyone in the OT were a product of God and his setting down, as you say, his law. Which includes human nature. Isaiah 45:7

I see God's purpose as established long before man came on the scene. He set everything in motion here on this earth and made humans 'in his image and likeness' so that they could act as his representatives here...probably whilst he went ahead with whatever other plans he has for this vast universe that we are not even a speck of dust in.

OK.

Like all good landlords, he is fussy about how you treat his property. He showed that in Eden. When he sees those who don't want to look after his creation, living things as well as the planet itself, he has the right to evict those who break their tenancy agreement.

I'll use your words. Bad analogy I think.
God's suppose to be a higher consciousness than what would be afforded a sadistic landlord and sire.

I don't want to share a building with horrible people who don't care about the earth, its animals, or other people. If they are evicted by the Landlord, then good riddance as far as I am concerned.

Really?Do you think of the likely number of people who inhabited the world prior to the Deluge that there was only one "righteous" family worthy of living?When its patriarch was an alcoholic?
If you were one of those good folk not anywhere near Noah and hi family, you'd have drowned along with everyone you loved.

You know that old adage? Insanity=repeating the same behavior expecting a different result.
Don't be fooled "smart phones" can make anyone insane. Why isn't this app working? (try again)

God killed everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah except for one family. Did that solve the problem of the number of sins practiced by people there? No.
God drowned the whole world and allowed one family, who's patriarch was an alcoholic, which is a sin, to live.
But, nothing changed. Sinners were still going to procreate.

He cleansed the world of sin. Promised never to use water for that purpose again. But fire instead come the next time he found it necessary. Which can be done now with nuclear weapons, etc....The whole world wiped clean.
Then he repopulated the world with sinners who would act sinfully again.

He drowned the world for its sins but he didn't take away the characteristic that made the cleansing necessary.
Why.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Some of your comments got my attention.....



Do you assume that all humans were at one time "primitive"? Can you define "primitive" in that context?

I don't follow.
The first people per the scriptures were not at all sophisticated as per the human species itself. And the earliest human fossils impart the same.

Humans haven't been around for hundreds of thousands of years. I guess you take most of your beliefs from science and a little bit from the Bible then? How do you decide what to accept and what to dismiss?

You've previously stated that the Bible's number of days for creation were not literal 24 hour days, but were vast periods of time. Epochs, etc... (paraphrasing)
Earth is some 4.5 billions of years old. Perhaps older.
So which is it? The days of creation in Genesis aren't literal days?Or they're actually reference to what is vast spans of time?
An upper jaw fossil belonging to the Homo species, human, was recently discovered. It is cataloged as, AL 666-1. It is dated to 2.3 million years ago.

You describe your religious preference as "Eclectic Christian"....so does that mean that you are a "shopper" for your beliefs....collecting a bit from here and a bit from there until your basket is filled with what you feel comfortable believing? Can you explain how a Christian can be eclectic? I thought the definition of a Christian was being a follower of Christ's teachings......all of them.

I'm a thinking Christian. I know the Bible was compiled by men. And the first "organized" denomination was created by the machination of a pagan man.

I agree about the millionaire pastors though; like the Pharisees, "they are having their reward in full" right now. (Matthew 6:1-8)
What happened to ..."you received free, give free"...? (Matthew 10:8)

They are as offensive too.
A friend of mine was a single parent, husband was a jerk and left. She had two babies to take care of. When secure in finances and family she donated to a TV pastor she respected. When she fell on hard times she asked for help.
His people sent her a pamphlet about prayer.
Meanwhile, he lives in a millions of dollar compound and has private jets for the family's private use.

I agree here, but Christendom was never Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. As foretold, the church leaders were going to be corrupted by the "traditions of men" just like Judaism before them. They would take most of the people with them. The road to life is not easy, so most take the highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

True. Jesus taught holiness. Not Methodism, etc...
There's a TV preacher who's what I call a legalist. He challenges people to find in scripture where there is any mention of any of the current denominations, including Baptist. He also teaches the holiness doctrine. But he's a strict OT legalist too. (Women should cover their head, no divorce under any circumstances, which is not in scripture. Etc...)
I use to watch him because he's quite entertaining. Then I lost interest though I will peek in when there's nothing else on, after he had preached, if someones pastor or bishop proclaims something not in the Bible confront them. Tell them to prove it with the written word. And then he himself one day preached that God "created Hell to get even with man."
I wrote him via email, left a message on the church phone that is never answered.
As did I suspect a lot of others. I never heard back.

Peter's word are timely here I think....
"However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” 19 So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good." (1 Peter 4:15-19)

Like Judaism...judgment starts with "the house of God". Its not only the godless who have to worry.

I have no worries. Just as I would not stay married to a man I fear for my life, I would not revere a creator that I was afraid of.

Psalm 145:17
The Lord is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.

When did "war break out in heaven before the world came to exist"? I am intrigued......I am assuming that the last part of that sentence refers to religious leaders who have supported murderous despots in the past and still do?

I would say the reference to murderous despots is a non-sequitur.

Not all that long ago we engaged in this topic of debate. You may find it interesting.
Was there a war in Heaven?

Are they "arriving" somewhere? Did the Pharisees in Jesus' day, "arrive" somewhere? I am picturing the Pearly Gates with armed guards telling these guys to take the elevator....down.

Surely you don't mean something like that?

Of course not. In point of fact, I've no idea where you would even come up with such a thought.
I'll rephrase the former remark, re~posted here for context:"What fun! When a war broke out in Heaven before the world came to exist, imagine the future when such pastors arrive and have nowhere to go as they think live with that mass murderer they defended while on earth."

War broke out in Heaven, Satan and 1/3 of the angels that sided with him in that war were cast to earth by God. Therein allowed to be the antithesis of God's teachings. And in the case of Satan, Satan allowed to re-enter Heaven from time to time to confer with God as to how he is going to go about a particular mission to mess with God's faithful. As he is allowed to be lord of this world, where he roams like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.
All predetermined by God.
And now, pastors minister to have faith and trust in God and fear the Devil. That God lets to live and rule here.

When did God get "mad" with anyone in heaven? Are there wars in heaven like there are on earth? And why do you assume that paradise is heaven?

You return to the confusion you have about the scriptures telling us there was a war in Heaven. Imagine them as you like.
As to Heaven, one would imagine it would be paradise given it is God's abode.
John 14:2
"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?"

Though he also resides in Hell. (Psalms 139:7~8)

Sorry for all the questions but I am just curious. I like to know what brings others to their conclusions about these things.

No problem.

 

[metis]

He did that in biblical times, so why not now?

I don't believe God did either then or now.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I don't believe God did either then or now.

My comment was for those who believe all of the Bible.

 

[metis]

My comment was for those who believe all of the Bible.

Well, I do believe in "all of the Bible", but I don't believe in biblical inerrancy.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Well, I do believe in "all of the Bible", but I don't believe in biblical inerrancy.

Sounds good to me. There are people who do take it as inerrant, yet they don't see the violence dictated by Yahweh in the OT. That is until he became a "still, smal voice."