Christians: Natural disasters as punishment for unbelief?

[Deeje]

Some of your comments got my attention.....

It's like the primitives when our people dwelt in caves. Ignorant simple minds made deity out of lightening because they knew not from whence it came.

Do you assume that all humans were at one time "primitive"? Can you define "primitive" in that context?

Hundreds of thousands of years later we have millionaires in a pulpit promoting the same kind of thinking.

Humans haven't been around for hundreds of thousands of years. I guess you take most of your beliefs from science and a little bit from the Bible then? How do you decide what to accept and what to dismiss?

You describe your religious preference as "Eclectic Christian"....so does that mean that you are a "shopper" for your beliefs....collecting a bit from here and a bit from there until your basket is filled with what you feel comfortable believing? Can you explain how a Christian can be eclectic? I thought the definition of a Christian was being a follower of Christ's teachings......all of them.

I agree about the millionaire pastors though; like the Pharisees, "they are having their reward in full" right now. (Matthew 6:1-8)
What happened to ..."you received free, give free"...? (Matthew 10:8)

What such proponents of a weather god exacting vengeance don't appear to realize, or maybe they do, is that they're in that same breath used to proclaim, our God is angry and that's why he drowned your family, also are living so as to die and be in the presence of that tantrum trumpeter for eternity.

I agree here, but Christendom was never Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. As foretold, the church leaders were going to be corrupted by the "traditions of men" just like Judaism before them. They would take most of the people with them. The road to life is not easy, so most take the highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Peter's word are timely here I think....
"However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” 19 So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good." (1 Peter 4:15-19)

Like Judaism...judgment starts with "the house of God". Its not only the godless who have to worry.

What fun! When a war broke out in Heaven before the world came to exist, imagine the future when such pastors arrive and have nowhere to go as they think live with that mass murderer they defended while on earth.

When did "war break out in heaven before the world came to exist"? I am intrigued......I am assuming that the last part of that sentence refers to religious leaders who have supported murderous despots in the past and still do?

Are they "arriving" somewhere? Did the Pharisees in Jesus' day, "arrive" somewhere? I am picturing the Pearly Gates with armed guards telling these guys to take the elevator....down.

Surely you don't mean something like that?

Who is to save them from that if "he" gets mad in Heaven? If war can be waged there is it really paradise?

When did God get "mad" with anyone in heaven? Are there wars in heaven like there are on earth? And why do you assume that paradise is heaven?

Sorry for all the questions but I am just curious. I like to know what brings others to their conclusions about these things.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I remember many years ago reading a private revelation wherein it is revealed to a mystic that natural disasters are often permitted by God both as a means of reparation for sin as well as an opportunity for merit by good deeds. Because in the eyes of God what matters is our spiritual state at death and the eternity that state will determine.

There is no promise of a full life here on earth. The only thing that is promised is the eternity we all face at death.


Everything is under Divine Providence, nothing is an accident. God is the absolute sovereign Lord and Master of all creation (of all life) and as such God has every right to take life. Remember that Catholic doctrine says that all human beings are endowed with an immortal soul, so in effect death is simply a change from one state of existence to another. The person is never destroyed. And again, no one is promised a full lifetime on earth. You can be summoned to judgment at any moment.

To deny God's Providence in all things is to deny His sovereignty and power. It is to effectively say that God isn't in control, which is incoherent considering His omniscience and His omnipotence.

I get that point of view but your god should consider the suffering it causes by killing off its creations in such horrible and unpredictable ways. Would you run that spiel to a person whose family was wiped out by a natural disaster? A car accident? Murder? Suicide? Overdose? Etc. "Oh, God was just calling them to judgement. He is Lord and Master over everything and that is his right." That makes your god sound cold and callous, more interested in exercising authority over creatures who didn't ask to be brought into existence in the first place. I didn't ask to be concieved and be played with like a toy by a cosmic toddler. Life actually hurts, you know. Or maybe you don't. If not, then good for you. Bask in your privilege. People can spend a lifetime trying to just live with the trauma they've been through, nevermind healing from it. Sometimes they give up and die over it.

Your god has many things to answer for, if it is true. But in your view, he is above reproach and we are nothing. He won't even blink us out of existence. Wow. This is hell.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Where to begin.
Please accept in advance that I've worked in enormously cold weather and with bad mechanics plaguing every step, one heck of a day. It' Monday and every bit of the rumor.
If I do not rightly address every point you've queried, please forgive me.

Some of your comments got my attention.....

No doubt.




Do you assume that all humans were at one time "primitive"? Can you define "primitive" in that context?

Humans haven't been around for hundreds of thousands of years. I guess you take most of your beliefs from science and a little bit from the Bible then? How do you decide what to accept and what to dismiss?

I respect if you are a "new earther" person. I was privileged to take a break from a really bad day to visit with an Amish man's horse while my work vehicle was being serviced today.
They believe the earth is a disc.
I believe God is all powerful . And that is why I believe that he is able to overcome the Satanic, and I use to be a Satanist, lie. That the earth is no more than 10 thousand years old.
And all archeological findings measured in the millions of years are a Satanic falsehood.

You describe your religious preference as "Eclectic Christian"....so does that mean that you are a "shopper" for your beliefs....collecting a bit from here and a bit from there until your basket is filled with what you feel comfortable believing? Can you explain how a Christian can be eclectic? I thought the definition of a Christian was being a follower of Christ's teachings......all of them.

Actually, I hate to shop.
Really.
What I have is good enough.
I don't wear designer wear save for if someone donated it to Goodwill. Which is where I shop for personal and work clothing. (Self-employed in an environmental recycling service).
I'll keep it brief because Lord knows I can write/post/ talk, the ears off corn. Which explains the barren corn fields in Nebraska in spring.
I've lived a long time. I have walked many roads to find my "way home".
The history of the human arrogance is vast. In the Christian tradition we've made power in our image and likeness.
I've had occasion to "meet" that power face to face a number of times.
I won't detail that. However, I know that what man's tradition identifies as power, God, is in part derived from source that inspires that visual.
And is hella way beyond what is thought to compartmentalize the whole picture.
I've met "it".
Which is why I say I am eclectic Christian.

I agree about the millionaire pastors though; like the Pharisees, "they are having their reward in full" right now. (Matthew 6:1-8)
What happened to ..."you received free, give free"...? (Matthew 10:8)

If only they thought like that.

We are all pastors of "The Word". We are to live as examples of "the Bible".

We can all be creators, when we realize what is in front of us inviting the choice to be so, of a new reality for someone in need.
Example.
Last year I was at a grocery. A minority family was in front of me checking out. They had three babies. I call anyone just able to get on their feet that; babies.
The total of their order was more than they could afford.
In my world?
God doesn't let babies hunger.

Suffice to say, they were fed. I.E. They left with the cart full they arrived at the cashier with.

Look. Humans are egocentric. That's part of that sin thing we're to repent of, right?
Yet, look at savior God.
He's just like us.

I agree here, but Christendom was never Christianity by any stretch of the imagination. As foretold, the church leaders were going to be corrupted by the "traditions of men" just like Judaism before them. They would take most of the people with them. The road to life is not easy, so most take the highway. (Matthew 7:13-14)

Hypothetical.
Ready? Why would the creator of all reality kill everything that exists for behaving exactly as created to behave?

Peter's word are timely here I think....
"However, let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or a wrongdoer or a busybody in other people’s matters. 16 But if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not feel ashamed, but let him keep on glorifying God while bearing this name. 17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God? 18 “And if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, what will happen to the ungodly man and the sinner?” 19 So, then, let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on entrusting themselves to a faithful Creator while they are doing good." (1 Peter 4:15-19)

Have you ever wondered why a man who denied Christ three times was said to later be the creator of a man =made church?

Research the origin of 2nd Peter. You'll be amazed. Bart Ehrman, whom I use to respect , has a great lecture at YouTube on this. He's now a self-professed Agnostic. But remains a professor of NT studies @ a Christian U.

Like Judaism...judgment starts with "the house of God". Its not only the godless who have to worry.

Oh, darlin, there is no such thing as "godless".
God is literally, such an over used word now days, all.

When did "war break out in heaven before the world came to exist"? I am intrigued......I am assuming that the last part of that sentence refers to religious leaders who have supported murderous despots in the past and still do?

With all respect, research that. It is indeed fascinating as to what you shall find for the effort put forth.

Are they "arriving" somewhere? Did the Pharisees in Jesus' day, "arrive" somewhere? I am picturing the Pearly Gates with armed guards telling these guys to take the elevator....down.

Surely you don't mean something like that?



When did God get "mad" with anyone in heaven? Are there wars in heaven like there are on earth? And why do you assume that paradise is heaven?

Sorry for all the questions but I am just curious. I like to know what brings others to their conclusions about these things.

Have you ever read the Bible front to back?
It takes time.
The "begats" part is so boring. At least for me. However, if you persevere you may realize it does serve to further the study as pertains to human origin of man's history.
I have read the Bible cover to cover.

I have also lived, quite comfortably led to become, a Satanist, a Witch, and an atheist. (Atheists use lower case "a" so as to separate themselves from the proper noun afforded the religious. )
And as such I have made myself read through the "begats" . Realizing later? They are necessary to understand the whole of the old and new testimonies of "god" as related to human-kind.

We are what we believe we came from

Closing with that.
Think of what you imagine worthy of worship.
Are U who U know you to be better?
Or, worse than that which tells you IT IS the creator of YOUR
question as to who you are.


And Y U are here.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

OK, let's get to a really simple question .


Is "omni-benevolence" something that can be conflated with, omniscient? When we read God drowned THE WORLD?

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Hey, U know B4 there were conflict


There was


Ice cream!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Just watched ab interview on the German version of the Catholic channel EWTN, where the interview partner stated that God sends natural desasters as punishment for people leaving the faith and that "we" should revert and "believe harder". The formal topic was Jonah and the whale. As Jonah was thrown into the water to appease the sea, in the same way God becomes appeased by people converting/reverting to Christianity after natural disasters. The last part is my interpretation, but it was the only way I could make sense of her. So, Christians, do you think that God punishes unbelief by sending natural disasters?

What utter nonsense! No wonder people turn away from religion!
(Unfortunately, many turn away from the Bible, too.)

You can answer this yourself. Do only bad people die in disasters? It affects the good also!

 

[Deeje]

Here am I enduring a heatwave in Australia and you are freezing you buns off in a recycling plant?

Let's share.....

I respect if you are a "new earther" person. I was privileged to take a break from a really bad day to visit with an Amish man's horse while my work vehicle was being serviced today.
They believe the earth is a disc.
I believe God is all powerful . And that is why I believe that he is able to overcome the Satanic, and I use to be a Satanist, lie. That the earth is no more than 10 thousand years old.
And all archeological findings measured in the millions of years are a Satanic falsehood.

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but I am not a "new earther" person in the way that you seem to be assuming.
I believe that the earth is millions or even billions of years old. The satanic falsehood lies with the "young earthers"...I am not one of those. There were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Many creatures who share this planet with us have been around much longer than we have because the earth and creation were not 'poofed' into existence in 7 literal days.....are we clear on that?

I'll keep it brief because Lord knows I can write/post/ talk, the ears off corn. Which explains the barren corn fields in Nebraska in spring.

Well, don't get me started either....I could go round after round myself, but I'd need a shower occasionally.

I've lived a long time. I have walked many roads to find my "way home".
The history of the human arrogance is vast. In the Christian tradition we've made power in our image and likeness.
I've had occasion to "meet" that power face to face a number of times.
I won't detail that. However, I know that what man's tradition identifies as power, God, is in part derived from source that inspires that visual.
And is hella way beyond what is thought to compartmentalize the whole picture.
I've met "it".
Which is why I say I am eclectic Christian.

I've been around a while myself....and I too have walked some very disappointing paths to nowhere....but I firmly believe that God is looking for us as much as we are searching for him. When he finds us in a state of readiness to accept his truth, he gives it to us. He doesn't force it, but feeds it to us bit by bit, to see if we accept it eagerly, or if we are going to gag on it. Jesus said that the way to life is cramped and narrow......most people will take the highway in preference to a dirt road full of potholes and corrugations. (Matthew 7:13-14) That is why its the road less traveled.

I was like a dog with a bone....the more I studied God's word, the more answers were revealed...the more answers I got, the more questions I had! I am still a student 46 years later....and still loving it. This is a class from which we never graduate.

If only they thought like that.

We are all pastors of "The Word". We are to live as examples of "the Bible".

Amen to that!

We can all be creators, when we realize what is in front of us inviting the choice to be so, of a new reality for someone in need.
Example.
Last year I was at a grocery. A minority family was in front of me checking out. They had three babies. I call anyone just able to get on their feet that; babies.
The total of their order was more than they could afford.
In my world?
God doesn't let babies hunger.

Suffice to say, they were fed. I.E. They left with the cart full they arrived at the cashier with.

A living example of the Good Samaritan...right? Wonderful! But what if you had not been at the store that day and no one was moved to pay for their groceries? How many other children went hungry that night that didn't get fed? How do you tie that all in?

Look. Humans are egocentric. That's part of that sin thing we're to repent of, right?
Yet, look at savior God.
He's just like us.

I prefer to think he made us just like him....creative, inventive, observant, intuitive, benevolent, kind, loving.....all the ways that we possess his qualities, but which are presently weakened by sin so that we cannot really express them perfectly.

Hypothetical.
Ready? Why would the creator of all reality kill everything that exists for behaving exactly as created to behave?

He didn't create them to behave badly. He simply gave them free will...part of being made in God's image. And he's not going to kill everything that exists....what makes you think he is?

Have you ever wondered why a man who denied Christ three times was said to later be the creator of a man =made church?

Well, the way I see it, it was the man-made church that put Peter in a position in which he never placed himself...nor did Jesus. Roman Catholicism puts Peter there, but Jesus simply asked him to "feed his sheep"....and take responsibility for teaching others his message of salvation. He was not elevated above the other apostles, yet it appears as if he was given more responsibilities.
Peter was an impulsive soul but learned through bitter experience to control his emotions. He learned from his mistakes...so should we.

Research the origin of 2nd Peter. You'll be amazed. Bart Ehrman, whom I use to respect , has a great lecture at YouTube on this. He's now a self-professed Agnostic. But remains a professor of NT studies @ a Christian U.

Bart who? He is just a man, lost like a lot of others who can't navigate their way around the Bible without confusing the daylights out of themselves. No one can understand the Bible without God's spirit.
How does an agnostic teach others the Bible? Seriously....

Oh, darlin, there is no such thing as "godless".
God is literally, such an over used word now days, all.

Interesting....

did Jesus overuse the word God, do you think? (Revelation 3:12; John 20:17)

Instead of "godless" (i.e. having no belief in any god and therefore not bound by his rules) perhaps we should use the word the Bible uses..."ungodly" (meaning to behave in an manner that reflects no accountability to the Creator, or respect for his laws, whether you believe in him or not)

With all respect, research that. It is indeed fascinating as to what you shall find for the effort put forth.

I have, that's why I asked....I want to know how you arrived at that conclusion because it is quite different to the one I did.

Have you ever read the Bible front to back?
It takes time.
The "begats" part is so boring. At least for me. However, if you persevere you may realize it does serve to further the study as pertains to human origin of man's history.
I have read the Bible cover to cover.

In 46 years, I can't even count the number of time I have read the Bible....but having said that, it isn't just reading the Bible that matters as much as understanding what you are reading and being able to tie it all in to one story from Genesis to Revelation.
Without the guidance from those that are already trained in this knowledge, we haven't got a hope of coming anywhere close to what it teaches. Jesus came and he taught the apostles...and then the apostles taught everyone else. Everything that the apostles taught, they learned from Jesus....so we have the words of the apostles to guide us too but we still need teachers because the congregations all had them.

In the time of the end, Jesus was going to appoint a "faithful and wise slave" to "feed" his entire household on earth just as Peter was assigned to do. (Matthew 24:45) Jesus framed his identity in a question...."who really is he"? Just as there was not one apostle, but a united group of men chosen in the first century, so there would not be one man at the helm of Christ's Church. The faithful slave is a body of men, unitedly leading God's people in the way of the truth. We have to find that body who are leading all of Christ's disciples in every nation on earth in an unprecedented 'preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom'. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

We are what we believe we came from

Are we? I believe that we are born the way we are. Some people are devoid of spirituality...others are swept away with emotion but have little knowledge....others have all kind o beliefs in between. But there is only one truth...."one Lord, one faith, one baptism".

Closing with that.
Think of what you imagine worthy of worship.
Are U who U know you to be better?
Or, worse than that which tells you IT IS the creator of YOUR
question as to who you are.

Sorry, but I am going to have to ask for a translation on that one.

And Y U are here.

Here on earth? or here at RF? I know why I am here on earth....because God allowed our first to carry out his first mandate to "fill the earth". We make our own choices here.
I am here at RF because I have an inordinate love of the Bible and love to share with like minded souls what I have learned in 46 years of study. I love the conversations.

Is "omni-benevolence" something that can be conflated with, omniscient? When we read God drowned THE WORLD?

Yes. Because an all knowing God makes decisions based on how things will play out in the fulfillment of his overall purpose....even thousands of years into the future. Did you not know that he had a purpose in creating the material universe?

Why did he put human beings on this planet? Just to be mean to them? To tell them not to sin but to set them up to do that? Then drown the world in a flood as punishment? I believe that the Creator knows how everything will turn out if he chooses to, and can see where his every action will take his purpose? (Isaiah 55:11; Isaiah 46:10)

What is in the story surrounding the flood that causes you to question his actions? I am happy to discuss. I can show you why his omniscience is closely tied into his omni-benevolence.

 

[Glaurung]

I get that point of view but your god should consider the suffering it causes by killing off its creations in such horrible and unpredictable ways. Would you run that spiel to a person whose family was wiped out by a natural disaster? A car accident? Murder? Suicide? Overdose? Etc. "Oh, God was just calling them to judgement. He is Lord and Master over everything and that is his right." That makes your god sound cold and callous, more interested in exercising authority over creatures who didn't ask to be brought into existence in the first place. I didn't ask to be concieved and be played with like a toy by a cosmic toddler. Life actually hurts, you know. Or maybe you don't. If not, then good for you. Bask in your privilege. People can spend a lifetime trying to just live with the trauma they've been through, nevermind healing from it. Sometimes they give up and die over it.

God gives everyone sufficient grace for salvation. No one is unjustly deprived. No one is robbed of a salvation that would have been obtained if given more time on earth. Until the final judgment wherein the justice of God is laid out for all to see in its totality, we are to be like Job and acknowledge our ignorance. We do not as of yet have the whole picture and as such we are in no position to 'judge' God. Instead of human presumption, the Gospel's prescription is humility and trust. To take up the cross. Matthew 16:24.

And yes, some people have heavier crosses than others, but God allows nothing beyond our ability. God's grace is greater than our depravity. But grace is only efficacious on our response.

Your god has many things to answer for, if it is true. But in your view, he is above reproach and we are nothing. He won't even blink us out of existence. Wow. This is hell.

Nothing? God did not redeem what was worth nothing. He even took on a human nature so clearly we are worth far more than nothing. We only become nothing apart from God, because it is only in our relation to God that we have our dignity as being in His image.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

Here am I enduring a heatwave in Australia and you are freezing you buns off in a recycling plant?

Let's share.....

I use to live in Tampa Florida. 85 degree Christmas, and then I moved. I'z brilliant.

Well, I hate to disappoint you, but I am not a "new earther" person in the way that you seem to be assuming.
I believe that the earth is millions or even billions of years old. The satanic falsehood lies with the "young earthers"...I am not one of those. There were no dinosaurs on the ark.

Many creatures who share this planet with us have been around much longer than we have because the earth and creation were not 'poofed' into existence in 7 literal days.....are we clear on that?

You didn't disappoint. Thanks for clearing that up.

Well, don't get me started either....I could go round after round myself, but I'd need a shower occasionally.

So I've heard.

I've been around a while myself....and I too have walked some very disappointing paths to nowhere....but I firmly believe that God is looking for us as much as we are searching for him. When he finds us in a state of readiness to accept his truth, he gives it to us. He doesn't force it, but feeds it to us bit by bit, to see if we accept it eagerly, or if we are going to gag on it. Jesus said that the way to life is cramped and narrow......most people will take the highway in preference to a dirt road full of potholes and corrugations. (Matthew 7:13-14) That is why its the road less traveled.

Great point.

I was like a dog with a bone....the more I studied God's word, the more answers were revealed...the more answers I got, the more questions I had! I am still a student 46 years later....and still loving it. This is a class from which we never graduate.

It's true. Every Bible reader I've met says the same thing. The more you read, the more is revealed, the more questions come up.

Amen to that!

A living example of the Good Samaritan...right? Wonderful! But what if you had not been at the store that day and no one was moved to pay for their groceries? How many other children went hungry that night that didn't get fed? How do you tie that all in?

I see it like that meaning in the Starfish story.

I made a difference for that one family God put in front of me and while I had the money to serve the meaning of compassion and charity.

I prefer to think he made us just like him....creative, inventive, observant, intuitive, benevolent, kind, loving.....all the ways that we possess his qualities, but which are presently weakened by sin so that we cannot really express them perfectly.

And yet, what we call sin, God calls dominion.
God created the paradigm that is sin, by meaning, and redemption.
Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve for their first mistake? When they were innocents with know intellect taken advantage of by the higher intelligence Devil that knew the ultimatum before hand. And slithered up the tree God planted there in his omniscience.

He didn't create them to behave badly. He simply gave them free will...part of being made in God's image. And he's not going to kill everything that exists....what makes you think he is?

Do newborns have free will?
There is no free will within Sovereign Omniscience. God planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden and then told two people who had no knowledge of good and evil, obedience and disobedience, not to eat of it.
Imagine a baby put in a room full of toys. The baby is mobile and can make their way to each one as they like. But there's one toy that the parent told that baby they could not touch. Or else.
The baby plays with that toy eventually.

The parent sees this, picks up the baby and banishes them from the room forever. And walks away from the baby. Only to communicate through letters from then on.

Fair?

Well, the way I see it, it was the man-made church that put Peter in a position in which he never placed himself...nor did Jesus. Roman Catholicism puts Peter there, but Jesus simply asked him to "feed his sheep"....and take responsibility for teaching others his message of salvation. He was not elevated above the other apostles, yet it appears as if he was given more responsibilities.
Peter was an impulsive soul but learned through bitter experience to control his emotions. He learned from his mistakes...so should we.

I agree.

Bart who? He is just a man, lost like a lot of others who can't navigate their way around the Bible without confusing the daylights out of themselves. No one can understand the Bible without God's spirit.
How does an agnostic teach others the Bible? Seriously....

Well, he's a professor of NT studies, so that deserves respect as he is more learned than the average Christian.
And it is beyond me that he's still a professor at a Christian university.
I'm thinking tenure keeps him there. Though in my view he should be fired regardless. He has reportedly told his freshman students that by the time he's finished they'll be either atheist or agnostic.
That I would think would be a violation of his contract.

Interesting....

did Jesus overuse the word God, do you think? (Revelation 3:12; John 20:17)

No. But you may be shocked by how many Christians that use Christ's name to describe themselves don't believe Jesus was God begat into flesh.
When God is creator of all that is there can be no thing that is not of creator.

Instead of "godless" (i.e. having no belief in any god and therefore not bound by his rules) perhaps we should use the word the Bible uses..."ungodly" (meaning to behave in an manner that reflects no accountability to the Creator, or respect for his laws, whether you believe in him or not)

Ungodly, that works just fine.

I have, that's why I asked....I want to know how you arrived at that conclusion because it is quite different to the one I did.

I'm surprised. It explains how Lucifer was cast down.
Bible Verses About War In Heaven
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WAR IN HEAVEN

In 46 years, I can't even count the number of time I have read the Bible....but having said that, it isn't just reading the Bible that matters as much as understanding what you are reading and being able to tie it all in to one story from Genesis to Revelation.
Without the guidance from those that are already trained in this knowledge, we haven't got a hope of coming anywhere close to what it teaches. Jesus came and he taught the apostles...and then the apostles taught everyone else. Everything that the apostles taught, they learned from Jesus....so we have the words of the apostles to guide us too but we still need teachers because the congregations all had them.

Good point.
Did you know that the epistles (letters) of Paul were published before the Gospels?
It is easy to think just the opposite due to the composition of the NT books themselves. I find that interesting.

In the time of the end, Jesus was going to appoint a "faithful and wise slave" to "feed" his entire household on earth just as Peter was assigned to do. (Matthew 24:45) Jesus framed his identity in a question...."who really is he"? Just as there was not one apostle, but a united group of men chosen in the first century, so there would not be one man at the helm of Christ's Church. The faithful slave is a body of men, unitedly leading God's people in the way of the truth. We have to find that body who are leading all of Christ's disciples in every nation on earth in an unprecedented 'preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom'. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

Good points.

Are we? I believe that we are born the way we are. Some people are devoid of spirituality...others are swept away with emotion but have little knowledge....others have all kind o beliefs in between. But there is only one truth...."one Lord, one faith, one baptism".

You proved my point beautifully.

Sorry, but I am going to have to ask for a translation on that one.

I'll rephrase. I use the U's on occasion because someone cracked wise about them in my personal title once.
Are you a better person now due to your faith? Or are you what your faith prescribes you to be and behave as. What is there to achieve when our flesh and soul are of God the moment we are conceived, but that a faith tells us we are less than from the time we're born by creators will.
Because we accept that, we believe we are that. And then we seek to correct that by holding faith in the precepts that tell us how to change that in order to please the creator we're told first made us that way.
To need him. And to fear the adversary he let to live and be lord of this world.

Here on earth? or here at RF? I know why I am here on earth....because God allowed our first to carry out his first mandate to "fill the earth". We make our own choices here.
I am here at RF because I have an inordinate love of the Bible and love to share with like minded souls what I have learned in 46 years of study. I love the conversations.

Cool.
Yep, that's telling my age.

Yes. Because an all knowing God makes decisions based on how things will play out in the fulfillment of his overall purpose....even thousands of years into the future. Did you not know that he had a purpose in creating the material universe?

I sure do. And I'm aware of the scriptures that inform all things are predestined according to his will, purpose, and for his glory.

(Had to post this in two's due to word limit. Boy we talk a lot.
)

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

I use to live in Tampa Florida. 85 degree Christmas, and then I moved. I'z brilliant.

You didn't disappoint. Thanks for clearing that up.


So I've heard.


Great point.

It's true. Every Bible reader I've met says the same thing. The more you read, the more is revealed, the more questions come up.







I see it like that meaning in the Starfish story.

I made a difference for that one family God put in front of me and while I had the money to serve the meaning of compassion and charity.

And yet, what we call sin, God calls dominion.
God created the paradigm that is sin, by meaning, and redemption.
Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve for their first mistake? When they were innocents with know intellect taken advantage of by the higher intelligence Devil that knew the ultimatum before hand. And slithered up the tree God planted there in his omniscience.


Do newborns have free will?
There is no free will within Sovereign Omniscience. God planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden and then told two people who had no knowledge of good and evil, obedience and disobedience, not to eat of it.
Imagine a baby put in a room full of toys. The baby is mobile and can make their way to each one as they like. But there's one toy that the parent told that baby they could not touch. Or else.
The baby plays with that toy eventually.

The parent sees this, picks up the baby and banishes them from the room forever. And walks away from the baby. Only to communicate through letters from then on.

Fair?



I agree.



Well, he's a professor of NT studies, so that deserves respect as he is more learned than the average Christian.
And it is beyond me that he's still a professor at a Christian university.
I'm thinking tenure keeps him there. Though in my view he should be fired regardless. He has reportedly told his freshman students that by the time he's finished they'll be either atheist or agnostic.
That I would think would be a violation of his contract.




No. But you may be shocked by how many Christians that use Christ's name to describe themselves don't believe Jesus was God begat into flesh.
When God is creator of all that is there can be no thing that is not of creator.

Ungodly, that works just fine.


I'm surprised. It explains how Lucifer was cast down.
Bible Verses About War In Heaven
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WAR IN HEAVEN



Good point.
Did you know that the epistles (letters) of Paul were published before the Gospels?
It is easy to think just the opposite due to the composition of the NT books themselves. I find that interesting.


Good points.


You proved my point beautifully.




I'll rephrase. I use the U's on occasion because someone cracked wise about them in my personal title once.
Are you a better person now due to your faith? Or are you what your faith prescribes you to be and behave as. What is there to achieve when our flesh and soul are of God the moment we are conceived, but that a faith tells us we are less than from the time we're born by creators will.
Because we accept that, we believe we are that. And then we seek to correct that by holding faith in the precepts that tell us how to change that in order to please the creator we're told first made us that way.
To need him. And to fear the adversary he let to live and be lord of this world.




Cool.
Yep, that's telling my age.


I sure do. And I'm aware of the scriptures that inform all things are predestined according to his will, purpose, and for his glory.

(Had to post this in two's due to word limit. Boy we talk a lot.
)

Why did he put human beings on this planet? Just to be mean to them? To tell them not to sin but to set them up to do that? Then drown the world in a flood as punishment? I believe that the Creator knows how everything will turn out if he chooses to, and can see where his every action will take his purpose? (Isaiah 55:11; Isaiah 46:10)

Really? It boils down to God is playing games with God.
All things are of the creator of all things.

What is in the story surrounding the flood that causes you to question his actions? I am happy to discuss. I can show you why his omniscience is closely tied into his omni-benevolence.

Omni-benevolence = eternally benevolent, kind. I'd love to hear how drowning all humans but a selected few is an indicator of that.
Etymology Online:
benevolence (n.)

c. 1400, "disposition to do good," from Old French benivolence (Modern French bienveillance) and directly from Latin benevolentia "good feeling, good will, kindness," from bene "well" (see bene-) + volantem (nominative volens) present participle of velle "to wish" (see will (v.)). In English history, this was the name given to forced extra-legal loans or contributions to the crown, first so called 1473 by Edward IV, who cynically "asked" it as a token of good will toward his rule.

omni-word-forming element meaning "all," from Latin
omni-, combining form of omnis "all, every, the whole, of every kind," of unknown origin …

 

[Deeje]

I'm sure that if we were having this conversation in person, we'd be up all night!

It's nice to meet someone as passionate about this subject as I am....even if we disagree agreeably.

what we call sin, God calls dominion.

Hmmm...how did you come to that conclusion? The "dominion" that God gave to man over the totality of his creation was an appointment....a job description if you like. God appointed the humans to act as caretakers of planet Earth because his intention was not to micro-manage everything down here, but to allow all that he had set in motion to do what it was programmed to do. The only ones NOT 'programmed' were the humans. Acting as God's representatives required free will and the ability to make choices when the situation required it. Sin wasn't even on the radar at that stage. But understanding what "sin" is, is key here.

"Sin" is an archery term that means to "miss the mark", so in disobeying God, humans lost their perfection, now missing the mark that God had set for them. It resulted in a change in their whole demeanor.....from innocence to shame.

God created the paradigm that is sin, by meaning, and redemption.

If the pair had just obeyed that one simple command, none of that would have happened. There would have been no "sin".

"The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represented God's sovereign right to set reasonable limits for their activity. He placed the decision about what is good and what is evil in his own jurisdiction. IOW, man was not to decide for himself what was good or evil...God would do that. The 'good' would have continued, and 'evil' things would never have been in their experience. Obedience was not too much to ask in their circumstances because God had provided so generously for their every need, that there was nothing more that they could have wanted......until a rebel spirit who was a guardian in the garden, made the fruit of that tree into something to be desired. He couldn't force them to eat it, but he knew how to plant seeds of doubt and lie about God....and his plan worked.
He fooled the woman, but he didn't fool the man. What Adam did was a deliberate act that cost all of us our lives in paradise. (Romans 5:12)

Why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve for their first mistake? When they were innocents with know intellect taken advantage of by the higher intelligence Devil that knew the ultimatum before hand. And slithered up the tree God planted there in his omniscience.

What was there to forgive? There was no mistake. These were perfect creatures with optimum intelligence and the man was not new on the scene. We don't know how long Adam was in existence before his wife was created, but as family head, he was well educated by God before she arrived. He was responsible for her education, and her response to the devil showed that her husband had instructed her in the most important command they had in the garden. "Don't even touch that tree or you will die".

There was no excuse for what they did and no basis upon which to forgive them. It was a willful and deliberate act and they knew it. There is not one single word of remorse or regret expressed by either of them.....no sacrifice as a sin offering.....just the resignation that they disobeyed their God and spiritual death came with that act of disobedience. They had stolen something that belonged to God and they knew the penalty before they ate the fruit. Physical death was then inevitable.

People arrive at wrong conclusions because they misread the Bible. The creative "days" were not 24 hour periods. They were epochs of long duration, so there is much about those "days" that are condensed in Genesis. Understanding that opens it all up.

Do newborns have free will?
There is no free will within Sovereign Omniscience. God planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden and then told two people who had no knowledge of good and evil, obedience and disobedience, not to eat of it.

Not so for all the reasons stated above. They did not need to know good and evil to obey.

Imagine a baby put in a room full of toys. The baby is mobile and can make their way to each one as they like. But there's one toy that the parent told that baby they could not touch. Or else.
The baby plays with that toy eventually.

The parent sees this, picks up the baby and banishes them from the room forever. And walks away from the baby. Only to communicate through letters from then on.

Fair?

If you think that is the scenario then of course its not fair....but is that the case? Is the Creator the bad guy here or is the devil having a lend of people still trying to portray him that way?

Adam and his wife were not babies. And free will was a necessary component in their assignment, so in order for free will not to be impeded, there had to be a choice concerning it. The only way for God to keep evil away from his children was to lock it up behind a penalty so severe that only a fool would disobey his command. The devil played Adam for a fool and he won. He divided his loyalties and made him choose between the love of his God and the love of his life. It was very calculated.

What are your thoughts so far?

 

[Deeje]

Well, he's a professor of NT studies, so that deserves respect as he is more learned than the average Christian.
And it is beyond me that he's still a professor at a Christian university.
I'm thinking tenure keeps him there. Though in my view he should be fired regardless. He has reportedly told his freshman students that by the time he's finished they'll be either atheist or agnostic.
That I would think would be a violation of his contract.

I have no respect for people who are hypocrites. How do you keep a job like that when you have lost your faith? His knowledge and education did nothing for him, did it? Faith is built on those things but is underpinned by a close relationship with God. He either never had one, or allowed doubt to kill off whatever he thought he had.

No. But you may be shocked by how many Christians that use Christ's name to describe themselves don't believe Jesus was God begat into flesh.
When God is creator of all that is there can be no thing that is not of creator.

Sorry, but I have to confess to being one of those who don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate. Nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be God....nor could he be because God is immortal and cannot die. How can mere humans kill an immortal God?
If Jesus as a son was "begotten" then he needed a 'begetter'....someone who produced him. That same someone 'sent' him and then when he had completed his mission, he resurrected him.

Most "Christians" have no idea how blasphemous that Catholic doctrine is. Not many understand that before Catholicism introduced the idea, trinities were only found in paganism. More on this if you wish to discuss the scriptural aspects.

I'm surprised. It explains how Lucifer was cast down.
Bible Verses About War In Heaven
BIBLE VERSES ABOUT WAR IN HEAVEN

These are all speaking about one war based on what was prophesied about the fate of the devil. That war has been fought and satan and his hordes are now confined to the earth during this period of time that Daniel called "the time of the end". It is the reason why we see the world falling apart...again degenerating into violence and immorality as it was before the flood. The devil knows his time is short. (Revelation 12:7-12)

There is a lot to discuss about this topic too but space will not allow.

Did you know that the epistles (letters) of Paul were published before the Gospels?
It is easy to think just the opposite due to the composition of the NT books themselves. I find that interesting.

Yes, the various letters and "books" of the Bible were relatively small, (by today's book standards) contained in scrolls before codex was introduced.
Its good to see when each book was written to give us some context.

Are you a better person now due to your faith? Or are you what your faith prescribes you to be and behave as. What is there to achieve when our flesh and soul are of God the moment we are conceived, but that a faith tells us we are less than from the time we're born by creators will.
Because we accept that, we believe we are that. And then we seek to correct that by holding faith in the precepts that tell us how to change that in order to please the creator we're told first made us that way.
To need him. And to fear the adversary he let to live and be lord of this world.

I could write a book on this topic. It is one of the most misunderstood Bible subjects, so I might start a thread on it if you wish to discuss the implications of your statement above. May I use your quote to address it?

And I'm aware of the scriptures that inform all things are predestined according to his will, purpose, and for his glory.

The things that God predestines are not people. He predestines outcomes and leaves the people to include or exclude themselves...that is the exercise of free will. Those predestined in the Bible for a specific role are made quite clear...they are very few.

(Had to post this in two's due to word limit. Boy we talk a lot.
)

We are a good pair.

 

[Deeje]

Really? It boils down to God is playing games with God.
All things are of the creator of all things.

Do you think God plays games? Or is it just misinterpretation of his actions and intentions that make it seem that way?

Omni-benevolence = eternally benevolent, kind. I'd love to hear how drowning all humans but a selected few is an indicator of that.
Etymology Online:
benevolence (n.)

c. 1400, "disposition to do good," from Old French benivolence (Modern French bienveillance) and directly from Latin benevolentia "good feeling, good will, kindness," from bene "well" (see bene-) + volantem (nominative volens) present participle of velle "to wish" (see will (v.)). In English history, this was the name given to forced extra-legal loans or contributions to the crown, first so called 1473 by Edward IV, who cynically "asked" it as a token of good will toward his rule.

omni-word-forming element meaning "all," from Latin
omni-, combining form of omnis "all, every, the whole, of every kind," of unknown origin …

If it is God's intention to resurrect the dead as Jesus said (John 5:28-29) then both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of the same place...their graves. God's benevolence would then be demonstrated by giving those who perished in the flood another opportunity to gain a knowledge of God along with their children. They proved back then that were undeserving of life, having been given ample warning of God's intentions. So a second chance is afforded to those who have paid sin's wages.

If resurrection is as easy as waking someone from sleep as Jesus indicated with Lazarus (John 11:11-14) then him taking life is a lot different to us doing so. He can restore life...we can't.

I believe that understanding why God does what he does, is the key to appreciating his benevolence.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

I'm sure that if we were having this conversation in person, we'd be up all night!

It's nice to meet someone as passionate about this subject as I am....even if we disagree agreeably.

No doubt. I've had discussions like that. Fully absorbed to the point we notice the sun's coming up and we both have to work in the morning.
Then we got married and that cured it.

Hmmm...how did you come to that conclusion? The "dominion" that God gave to man over the totality of his creation was an appointment....a job description if you like. God appointed the humans to act as caretakers of planet Earth because his intention was not to micro-manage everything down here, but to allow all that he had set in motion to do what it was programmed to do. The only ones NOT 'programmed' were the humans. Acting as God's representatives required free will and the ability to make choices when the situation required it. Sin wasn't even on the radar at that stage. But understanding what "sin" is is key here.

By God's dominion I meant, Sin was a construct created by God. God gave his rules, then he gave the penalty description for being in non-compliance. And then he gave the eternal punishment for dying unrepentant.

"Sin" is an archery term that means to "miss the mark", so in disobeying God, humans lost their perfection, now missing the mark that God had set for them. It resulted in a change in their whole demeanor.....from innocence to shame.

And yet, he made us to fail in the garden so that we would miss the mark.
Why did he plant a tree that would set the whole thing off in the first place and for all time? So that we are born missing the mark until we feel called to repent of being what God created us to be. Fallible humans who are born sinners. Why wait for countless generations to send us a way to save ourselves from that? When all he had to do was, 1. not plant that tree in the garden. 2. forgive Adam and Eve for being misled by a higher intelligence when they had none to rebuke it with?

If the pair had just obeyed that one simple command, none of that would have happened. There would have been no "sin".

How does one arrive at the cognizant decision to obey when they had no comprehension of obedience and disobedience? "Knowledge of good and evil" is the intellectual acuity marker for making an informed choice to act one way or the other. Obey or disobey.

"The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represented God's sovereign right to set reasonable limits for their activity.

Reasonable limits? Given the punishment on two people with no rational thought processes?

He placed the decision about what is good and what is evil in his own jurisdiction. IOW, man was not to decide for himself what was good or evil...God would do that. The 'good' would have continued, and 'evil' things would never have been in their experience. Obedience was not too much to ask in their circumstances because God had provided so generously for their every need, that there was nothing more that they could have wanted......until a rebel spirit who was a guardian in the garden, made the fruit of that tree into something to be desired. He couldn't force them to eat it, but he knew how to plant seeds of doubt and lie about God....and his plan worked.

To the first sentence there, of course. His jurisdiction is eternal and defined and delineated by him since he is the source, creator, of all that is, was, shall be.
Adam and Eve had no rational intellect before they ate of the fruit that imbued them with that. That's why we're told after eating they realized they were naked and were ashamed.
Whereas before they had no comprehension of the difference between naked and clothed. No shame, which is a characteristic of intelligence and reason.

He fooled the woman, but he didn't fool the man. What Adam did was a deliberate act that cost all of us our lives in paradise. (Romans 5:12)

He was innocent and trusting just as Eve was. He had no rational intellect so as to understand or comprehend the edict, do not eat or you shall die.
So when he saw Eve alive he ate of the fruit because he didn't know what it meant to not. The ultimatum God gave required a rational intellect to discern the particulars and make an informed choice.
Adam and Eve did not have that until they ate of the fruit of the tree that imbued them with the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Rational intellectual discernment.

What was there to forgive? There was no mistake. These were perfect creatures with optimum intelligence and the man was not new on the scene. We don't know how long Adam was in existence before his wife was created, but as family head, he was well educated by God before she arrived. He was responsible for her education, and her response to the devil showed that her husband had instructed her in the most important command they had in the garden. "Don't even touch that tree or you will die".

How does someone with no rational intellect, the mind of a newborn, obey?

There was no excuse for what they did and no basis upon which to forgive them.

Really? All they did was eat from a piece of fruit.
Today, serial killers find Christ on death row.

It was a willful and deliberate act and they knew it. There is not one single word of remorse or regret expressed by either of them.....no sacrifice as a sin offering.....just the resignation that they disobeyed their God and spiritual death came with that act of disobedience. They had stolen something that belonged to God and they knew the penalty before they ate the fruit. Physical death was then inevitable.

They died to their innocence. God told them if they ate of the fruit they would die. But they did not. Which was a tool the Devil used to manipulate Eve.
The Devil remember knew the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve. And he entered the garden precisely to lead them to eat. Because he knew they did not possess the awareness necessary to refuse. He tempted them in their faith in God as he later tempted Job, with God's permission.
Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. They did not therefore possess the capacity to understand God's ultimatum.
And why would God plant a tree he knew would be used by Satan to destroy the innocence of his new creation?
Ever wonder about that? Constraints? Reasonable constraints on their behavior? God told them everything in the garden was theirs to enjoy. Then he plants a tree that would destroy them and all of humanity for eternity? Without imbuing them with the consciousness of right and wrong? That is what the fruit contained you realize.
Would you spank a newborn for touching something you expressly forbid them , by telling them this, to touch?

People arrive at wrong conclusions because they misread the Bible. The creative "days" were not 24 hour periods. They were epochs of long duration, so there is much about those "days" that are condensed in Genesis. Understanding that opens it all up.

They do misunderstand that. I do not.

Not so for all the reasons stated above. They did not need to know good and evil to obey.

Really? How do you figure?

If you think that is the scenario then of course its not fair....but is that the case? Is the Creator the bad guy here or is the devil having a lend of people still trying to portray him that way?

God created Lucifer. And let him live after the war in Heaven which he orchestrated so as to challenge God's sovereignty. Then he cast him to earth to be lord of this world and prowl about like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.
God let Satan back into Heaven to confer with him about Satan's plans for faithful Job.
If it wasn't for Satan people wouldn't need to find God. If God had destroyed Satan after he and 1/3 of Heaven's angels lost the war, where would the world be now?
Without an antithesis of righteousness.

Mouthy me, having to post in 2 parts. Again . I gotta really work on being opinionated.
Oh, wait.

 

[TheresOnlyNow]

No doubt. I've had discussions like that. Fully absorbed to the point we notice the sun's coming up and we both have to work in the morning.
Then we got married and that cured it.


By God's dominion I meant, Sin was a construct created by God. God gave his rules, then he gave the penalty description for being in non-compliance. And then he gave the eternal punishment for dying unrepentant.


And yet, he made us to fail in the garden so that we would miss the mark.
Why did he plant a tree that would set the whole thing off in the first place and for all time? So that we are born missing the mark until we feel called to repent of being what God created us to be. Fallible humans who are born sinners. Why wait for countless generations to send us a way to save ourselves from that? When all he had to do was, 1. not plant that tree in the garden. 2. forgive Adam and Eve for being misled by a higher intelligence when they had none to rebuke it with?


How does one arrive at the cognizant decision to obey when they had no comprehension of obedience and disobedience? "Knowledge of good and evil" is the intellectual acuity marker for making an informed choice to act one way or the other. Obey or disobey.

Reasonable limits? Given the punishment on two people with no rational thought processes?

To the first sentence there, of course. His jurisdiction is eternal and defined and delineated by him since he is the source, creator, of all that is, was, shall be.
Adam and Eve had no rational intellect before they ate of the fruit that imbued them with that. That's why we're told after eating they realized they were naked and were ashamed.
Whereas before they had no comprehension of the difference between naked and clothed. No shame, which is a characteristic of intelligence and reason.


He was innocent and trusting just as Eve was. He had no rational intellect so as to understand or comprehend the edict, do not eat or you shall die.
So when he saw Eve alive he ate of the fruit because he didn't know what it meant to not. The ultimatum God gave required a rational intellect to discern the particulars and make an informed choice.
Adam and Eve did not have that until they ate of the fruit of the tree that imbued them with the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Rational intellectual discernment.



How does someone with no rational intellect, the mind of a newborn, obey?

Really? All they did was eat from a piece of fruit.
Today, serial killers find Christ on death row.
They died to their innocence. God told them if they ate of the fruit they would die. But they did not. Which was a tool the Devil used to manipulate Eve.
The Devil remember knew the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve. And he entered the garden precisely to lead them to eat. Because he knew they did not possess the awareness necessary to refuse. He tempted them in their faith in God as he later tempted Job, with God's permission.
Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. They did not therefore possess the capacity to understand God's ultimatum.
And why would God plant a tree he knew would be used by Satan to destroy the innocence of his new creation?
Ever wonder about that? Constraints? Reasonable constraints on their behavior? God told them everything in the garden was theirs to enjoy. Then he plants a tree that would destroy them and all of humanity for eternity? Without imbuing them with the consciousness of right and wrong? That is what the fruit contained you realize.
Would you spank a newborn for touching something you expressly forbid them , by telling them this, to touch?

They do misunderstand that. I do not.




Really? How do you figure?


God created Lucifer. And let him live after the war in Heaven which he orchestrated so as to challenge God's sovereignty. Then he cast him to earth to be lord of this world and prowl about like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.
God let Satan back into Heaven to confer with him about Satan's plans for faithful Job.
If it wasn't for Satan people wouldn't need to find God. If God had destroyed Satan after he and 1/3 of Heaven's angels lost the war, where would the world be now?
Without an antithesis of righteousness.

Mouthy me, having to post in 2 parts. Again . I gotta really work on being opinionated.
Oh, wait.

Adam and his wife were not babies. And free will was a necessary component in their assignment, so in order for free will not to be impeded, there had to be a choice concerning it. The only way for God to keep evil away from his children was to lock it up behind a penalty so severe that only a fool would disobey his command. The devil played Adam for a fool and he won. He divided his loyalties and made him choose between the love of his God and the love of his life. It was very calculated.

But they had no will to exercise as pertains to choices. They were unconscious of right and wrong, good and evil.
Just as a newborn is. Just as an infant is until they're taught what's what.
For someone to calculate something they have to have the intellectual acuity to pre~configure behavior and rationalize compliance factors and reward and non-compliance factors and punishment.
That the tree of knowledge, gnosis, bore that fruit so as to imbue that in those who ate of it, and that is why Adam and Eve were punished, is evidence they did not possess those traits before consuming the fruit that imbued those traits necessary in the beginning to obey an ultimatum.

What are your thoughts so far?

I think the whole paradigm is God's design so that we come to know we are not other. We are all God's. Meaning, we are God living his design so that he returns again and again to himself.
When God creates all things, there is no thing that is not of God.
God is first source, first cause. No thing can "become" from anything other than the one.

As to the scriptures and their account of what God is, while much of it is inspired for sure, much of it , this is my view after years of study, is man's invention to control through a fear paradigm, man.
And therein making "god's" of those who presume to stand and claim their charge to lead, pastor, us according to those rules of conduct.
The God that was created through these machinations is like unto that which is made to say, worship me or I'll burn you for eternity.

When a place of burning has a precise historic entry into the scriptures and due to man, that's man's responsibility for portraying Omnibenevolence as Omnivengence.
Eternal suffering for minute offenses. Unless one believes in the God that created that paradigm so as not to suffer the down side of it.
How can we not believe in God just being alive? No thing is other than of God. Even people.
To prescribe a set of behaviors so as to comport with the idea an eternal sovereign omnipresent power indescribable to human consciousness as pertains to the full depth of what it would require to be "God", and then articulate that power has nothing better to do than monitor and punish the mundane behaviors of people, whom at one time were killed for owning the Bible because that was considered an act against God and the church, the church was actually that which was offended. Because if illiterate people could actually learn to read they would be harder to lead from the pulpit where God is portrayed as one that teaches while speaking Latin.

That's all man. Not God. One has a very hard time conflating drowning the entire world with omni-benevlence. Drowning the entire world and then repopulating it with a family that were still sinners so as to insure a future filled with sinners in need of burning next time.
And after that, those who die un~anointed to the one faith through the one rite that makes them a member of the one and only religion God endorses, get to burn for eternity. In a place first created to receive Satan and his fallen angels who weren't sent there after they lost the war. But were allowed instead to bring temptation to the world's people.
All that is man's fear paradigm in print. Fear me , believe in me, follow these rules, join this set of beliefs by practicing what was first called a Mikvah, and then self-police personal behavior so as to not lose that eternal salvation. As those who do not accept OSAS argue. I.E. salvation can be lost.

God is love! I believe that.
And all the bad people? The most evil? Were it not for sovereign holiness, if God were a human, perpetrating all that is ascribed to him in the OT, he'd be on death row to the point Amnesty International would say, throw the switch.
God in scripture is a mass murderer.

What do the most ardent faithful answer to that? Likely it ran through your head as well, no disrespect inteneded of course. "He's God. He can do as he likes with his creation. This isn't a, do as I say not as I do equation. This is a do as I say or else ultimatum."

Again.

 

[syo]

that God sends natural desasters as punishment for people leaving the faith and that "we" should revert and "believe harder"

many christians believe that because atheism grows, God punishes us. they also see paganism as a threat. orthodox see paganism as a greater threat than atheism, actually. the thing is, as orthodox lessen, punishments increase.

 

[Deeje]

By God's dominion I meant, Sin was a construct created by God. God gave his rules, then he gave the penalty description for being in non-compliance. And then he gave the eternal punishment for dying unrepentant.

As I see it, all creation has balance...equal opposites appear in all things. Evil is an equal opposite of good.
Deciding between good and evil was the only thing God placed in his own jurisdiction.
Sin was not a construct...it was an outcome...the result of an action that was warned about before it was carried out.
Perfect beings do not make mistakes...they make choices. The three rebels in Eden will pay for their actions permanently because they are not forgivable. They were not babies, but sentient, intelligent adults who did not need to know more than that they had to obey their Sovereign. They knew what death meant. Animals died in the garden.
God had never lied to them and never would. There was no basis to believe the devil.

And yet, he made us to fail in the garden so that we would miss the mark.

Why on earth would a loving father do that? He made them to succeed by placing the TKGE behind a very severe penalty. An intelligent choice would have been to tell the devil to "buzz off.....I don't want to die....do you think I am stupid?" But apparently the self-interest button needs some fine tuning or at least some training. Self-interest worked for satan and he tried it on the woman...and he even tried it on the perfect man Jesus. It didn't work on him thankfully....which means that it shouldn't have worked on Adam either.

Why did he plant a tree that would set the whole thing off in the first place and for all time? So that we are born missing the mark until we feel called to repent of being what God created us to be. Fallible humans who are born sinners. Why wait for countless generations to send us a way to save ourselves from that?

Go deeper. Free will means choices in everything. If God had not given them a choice, he would have been compromising their free will. So he endeavored to make the choice itself unattractive.....asking them to trust him on that one decision. Asking to allow him to make that choice for them. It was the only thing he asked of them....and it was for their good. He intended never to allow evil to enter their lives.

The reason why we have countless generations is because he allowed them to fulfill the mandate he gave in Eden..."be fruitful, become many and fill the earth". God is not confined to earth time.

When all he had to do was,
1. not plant that tree in the garden.

There were two trees in the garden that affected their future lives. He basically said they should avoid one in order to partake of the other.
When they decided to eat the forbidden fruit, God made the other fruit forbidden....the one that would have allowed them to live forever. (Genesis 3:22-24) The tree of life was off limits from that time onward.

2. forgive Adam and Eve for being misled by a higher intelligence when they had none to rebuke it with?

Why do you insist that they were uneducated and unintelligent? Why would God make a rule that was beyond humans to comprehend and then punish them for it? Does that make sense to you? You make God sound like a dictatorial moron....not the loving and generous Father who provided so well for his human children.

How does one arrive at the cognizant decision to obey when they had no comprehension of obedience and disobedience? "Knowledge of good and evil" is the intellectual acuity marker for making an informed choice to act one way or the other. Obey or disobey.

When the rule was clearly stated before any action took place...."obey and live...or disobey and die" are pretty fundamental concepts, even a child could understand. Not something you need to be a genius to figure out, surely?

Reasonable limits? Given the punishment on two people with no rational thought processes?

Adam and Eve had no rational intellect before they ate of the fruit that imbued them with that.

The repetition of this phrase seems to hammer home the idea that God gave his children no education whatsoever.....that is not true. God educated Adam for quite some time before he created a mate for him. Adam had passed on what God had told him, to his wife. She told the serpent that the fruit of that tree was off limits. There was rational thought and intellect.

Whereas before they had no comprehension of the difference between naked and clothed. No shame, which is a characteristic of intelligence and reason.

Actually shame was something that was foreign. It was a negative response to something that never invoked such feelings before.
They now knew instinctively that their bodies could be used in an evil way. They tried to cover up their reproductive parts with fig leaves, but God went one further and made long garments of animal skins for them. This was to not only promote modesty, but also served as a protection from the hostile environment outside the garden.

 

[Deeje]

He was innocent and trusting just as Eve was. He had no rational intellect so as to understand or comprehend the edict, do not eat or you shall die.

Adam was not innocent.....not by a long shot. Have you ever wondered what would have happened if he had rejected the fruit from his wife's hand? What do you think God would have done in that case? Nothing was cast in concrete, so God simply responded to what the humans did. What if they had each made different choices.

So when he saw Eve alive he ate of the fruit because he didn't know what it meant to not. The ultimatum God gave required a rational intellect to discern the particulars and make an informed choice.
Adam and Eve did not have that until they ate of the fruit of the tree that imbued them with the knowledge of right and wrong, good and evil. Rational intellectual discernment.

How does someone with no rational intellect, the mind of a newborn, obey?

I don't believe that they had no rational intellect, but you seem a little fixated on it. Is there some reason why you want to defend Adam but not God? Who of the two was least likely to commit an offense?

Really? All they did was eat from a piece of fruit.
Today, serial killers find Christ on death row.

"All they did was eat from a piece of fruit"? Are you serious? It wasn't the eating of the fruit itself that was the problem, but what it represented. There was nothing wrong with the fruit.....but it was not given to them...it was God's property and they had no right to take it. It was grand theft, and they deserved their punishment.

They died to their innocence. God told them if they ate of the fruit they would die. But they did not. Which was a tool the Devil used to manipulate Eve.

He lied. They did die spiritually that day. They lost their relationship with God that day.....they began to die physically that day when access to the tree of life was denied. Like a fan unplugged fro a power source keeps spinning for a time then slowly stops.....that was experienced by Adam and his wife.

The Devil remember knew the ultimatum God gave Adam and Eve. And he entered the garden precisely to lead them to eat.

He was already in the garden in a position of trust. He abused it and yes, he knew exactly what to say and how to say it. Spirit creatures can materialize in any form....satan chose to present himself as a serpent. Had he approached her as the guardian, it may have been easier to reject his accusations about his own God.

Because he knew they did not possess the awareness necessary to refuse. He tempted them in their faith in God as he later tempted Job, with God's permission.

He did not know that his ruse would work...but he hoped it would....and it did. His main target all along was Adam, but he did not approach him directly, because he knew that Adam was more educated than his wife. Adam may well have told the devil to get lost, but going through the woman to get to the man was a stroke of genius. Dividing his loyalties and making him choose when he had waited so long for "flesh of his flesh and bone of his bones"....he chose badly...again succumbing to self interest.

Adam and Eve did not possess the knowledge of good and evil. They did not therefore possess the capacity to understand God's ultimatum.

But they did. When parents give rules to their children, do they always explain them? If you give a teenager a strict curfew time, does the teen understand the full implications of the rule. Isn't it enough that their parents have their best interests at heart, acknowledging potential dangers....or are they just trying to spoil their children's fun?

And why would God plant a tree he knew would be used by Satan to destroy the innocence of his new creation?

Do you understand that you are accusing God of deliberately sabotaging his own creation? Can you offer a reason for why he would? What was in that for him?

Did he know that satan would use the TKGE to make the humans into his puppets? Did he know that the woman would fail to refuse the initial offer?.....did he know in advance that the man would succumb as well?

Do you think God has to know everything just because he can?....or can he choose not to know and allow free willed beings to make their own choices? In all of scripture, all we see is God reacting to the behavior of his intelligent creation. What was the point of free will, if it wasn't free?

 

[Deeje]

God told them everything in the garden was theirs to enjoy. Then he plants a tree that would destroy them and all of humanity for eternity? Without imbuing them with the consciousness of right and wrong? That is what the fruit contained you realize.
Would you spank a newborn for touching something you expressly forbid them , by telling them this, to touch?

Bad analogy I think. These were not babies. There is nothing in the penalty that gave away how it was to be implemented. Did Adam know that sin would affect all his children? Do we always know the full repercussions of our actions until we see them occurring. We never intended for them to happen but as a far reaching consequence they affected so many others that we never imagined. How much better not to go there?

God created Lucifer.

No he did not. Lucifer is not a name ever used for the devil in scripture. And according to Ezekiel, the devil was perfect in every way when God created him. He made himself into the devil by his own actions. Do parents give birth to criminals? Or do people become criminals by their own choices?

And let him live after the war in Heaven which he orchestrated so as to challenge God's sovereignty. Then he cast him to earth to be lord of this world and prowl about like a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.

The war in heaven. I believe, is a relatively recent event, not something that happened thousands of years ago. Satan had free access to heaven and earth until that war occurred. Now he is confined to this earth giving all living humans an opportunity to be led by him down the road to death. He is already on it and he knows it, but in the short time he has left, he will take as many down with him as he can. All future citizens of God's Kingdom will have proven their qualifications for entry under test. If the devil tested Jesus, what makes us think he's going to leave us alone?

God let Satan back into Heaven to confer with him about Satan's plans for faithful Job.
If it wasn't for Satan people wouldn't need to find God. If God had destroyed Satan after he and 1/3 of Heaven's angels lost the war, where would the world be now?
Without an antithesis of righteousness.

Satan was not barred from heaven when he challenged Job's integrity. God did not protect his angels from satan's influence either....he just allowed him to act as the sieve to filter out those who had no love or loyalty for their Creator, both in heaven and on earth. There will be no rebels in paradise because they will all have been identified before the Kingdom is established on earth. Only the faithful will gain life.

Mouthy me, having to post in 2 parts. Again . I gotta really work on being opinionated.
Oh, wait.

Hmmm seems to be a common fault....

Not in me of course....

God is love! I believe that.
And all the bad people? The most evil? Were it not for sovereign holiness, if God were a human, perpetrating all that is ascribed to him in the OT, he'd be on death row to the point Amnesty International would say, throw the switch.
God in scripture is a mass murderer.

It is impossible for God to commit murder. He is the Law. He is also the originator of life, and the restorer of it. What he did in the OT was what he needed to do for his own reasons at that time. There is nothing he did that cannot be undone. He can orchestrate complete reversals.This is why he can allow everything to play out naturally. We are all choosing our own destiny.

What do the most ardent faithful answer to that? Likely it ran through your head as well, no disrespect inteneded of course. "He's God. He can do as he likes with his creation. This isn't a, do as I say not as I do equation. This is a do as I say or else ultimatum."

I see God's purpose as established long before man came on the scene. He set everything in motion here on this earth and made humans 'in his image and likeness' so that they could act as his representatives here...probably whilst he went ahead with whatever other plans he has for this vast universe that we are not even a speck of dust in.

Like all good landlords, he is fussy about how you treat his property. He showed that in Eden. When he sees those who don't want to look after his creation, living things as well as the planet itself, he has the right to evict those who break their tenancy agreement.

I don't want to share a building with horrible people who don't care about the earth, its animals, or other people. If they are evicted by the Landlord, then good riddance as far as I am concerned.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I agree that such a position is totally nonsensical because if God did that it makes him as being a homicidal maniac who kills even little children.

He did that in biblical times, so why not now?