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christians - judging

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Aqualung, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You said it's not okay to judge because nobody knows everything. But what if I do know about the thing I'm judging? is it still not okay because I don't know everything?
     
  2. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    In my opinion, no. I know that your religion says it is ok to judge. Mine does not.

    Even if mine said it was ok, I just don't see the point in it. For the reasons I've given already, several times.

    The only judgement that matters is that of God. Until then, humans judging each other is pointless.

    Now, with all that in mind, I don't necessarily have a problem with you judging. It'd be a bit hypocritical of me to judge you for judging. ;) I just don't see a point in it.

    I could live the best life I possibly can, follow all the rules of the Bible. Go to Church everyday, pray constantly, tithe, etc. etc. etc. Get to heaven and find out the interpretations of today are way off, and end up in Hell. Somebody on Earth telling me how to live my life isn't going to change that.

    In addition, I don't really see how judging someone is very helpful. If I think I'm living a good life, and someone comes up to me and says, "That activity of yours is sinful. You are a sinner. I am here to help you." I'm gonna think, "Um, ok."

    You attract more bees with honey than you do vinegar. The whole idea of judging others, or even just judging their sins, doesn't always come off with the greatest of intentions, and you tend to turn more people away than you will ever save.
     
  3. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Okay, so if it's not okay to judge anything, how do you function at all? How do you know what you should and should not do (you specifically, not generally)?
     
  4. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    My faith is what drives me. Judging others does me no good.

    :162:
     
  5. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You didn't answer my question. How do you know what a sin is if you can't judge actions to be either sinful or not? NObody asked why you don't judge "others". I asked how can you not judge at all.
     
  6. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    I'm speaking in terms of judging others. I can judge things for myself just fine, thank you very much. I just don't feel it is appropriate to judge others.

    Here's a story, as an example. On another message board, a new member signed on, and quickly joined some debates on homosexuality and gay marriage. This person had recently found Jesus (Had no religion prior to maybe 6 months before the discussions). This person spoke out quite harshly against homosexuals. They're abominations, they are sinners, they are going to hell, nothing can save them, they are of the devil, etc. etc. etc.

    This same person, was having an affair with a married man at the time. This same person, when she got upset with this married man of hers, would cheat on him with other men. She partied quite a bit as well. Was always out drinking and sleeping around.

    Sometimes, people spend SO much time judging others, they fail to see their own faults.

    The only person I have to answer to come judgement day is myself. I will help others as much as possible. If they need a shoulder to cry on, if they need money, if they need a place to stay, my doors and my heart are always open. I will pray for them often. However, I will not judge, I will not try and force my views on them, or force them to my religion. I see no point in it. I realize that not all my beliefs are going to be what God intended. In my heart, I feel God has touched me and is guiding me. But I also know I will never have all the answers.

    So I will lend a helping hand when needed. I will pray for all. I will pray for myself. And I will live my life according to the path my faith guides me. However, I will not judge others.
     
  7. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Well, I'm not. :D

    Yet you had enough judgemental ability to see that sleeping around was a fault in him. Enough judgemental ability to see his hypocracy.
     
  8. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    Just as an FYI.

    Per www.websters.com

    Judgement
    1. The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.
    1. <LI type=a>The mental ability to perceive and distinguish relationships; discernment: Fatigue may affect a pilot's judgment of distances. <LI type=a>The capacity to form an opinion by distinguishing and evaluating: His judgment of fine music is impeccable.
    2. The capacity to assess situations or circumstances and draw sound conclusions; good sense: She showed good judgment in saving her money. See Synonyms at reason.
    3. An opinion or estimate formed after consideration or deliberation, especially a formal or authoritative decision: awaited the judgment of the umpire.
    4. Law.<LI type=a>A determination of a court of law; a judicial decision. <LI type=a>A court act creating or affirming an obligation, such as a debt.
    5. A writ in witness of such an act.
    6. An assertion of something believed.
    7. A misfortune believed to be sent by God as punishment for sin.
    8. Judgment The Last Judgment.
    There are different ways of judging. A judgement can be the mental ability to form a perception on a situation. It can be forming an opinion of a matter. It can be simply weighing the information and deciding what is right and wrong.

    I see nothing wrong with that. When it comes to Religion, and people start talking about "judging others", I see that more as definition 9 above. An assertion of something believed. When you form an opinion on something and decide whether it is right or wrong, that is one thing. When you then assert your opinion on someone else, and tell that person they are right or wrong, or sinning, or what have you, that's the difference.

    We all make personal judgements as to how we should or should not live ourlives. I see nothing wrong with that. But when we force those judgements on others, that's where I start to have a problem.
     
  9. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Ah, there you go. Your trade mark defining-religious-beliefs-with-a-dictionary. i wondered how long that would take...

    But now that you've "refined" what you believe judging is, I wonder, how is it at all judgemental that I say homosexuality is a sin?
     
  10. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    Really? I defined religious beliefs with a dictionary? I didn't realize the word "judging" was a biblical word. I simply explained some differences when it comes to judging.

    You asked a question, and I answered it. I used the definitions of the word judging to help support my point. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs, but of human actions.

    And I have not refined what I believe judging is. I've stated quite clearly my stance on judging. I do not believe in judging others. I have not refined that belief in the least.

    :)
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Okay, whatever. You have gone in so many circles, I don't even know what you're talking about anymore.
     
  12. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    :biglaugh:

    You're too funny. My point has been consistent throughout this entire debate.

    I'm sorry if you have trouble following along. I pretty much just keep restating the same belief. I don't know how I could make it any clearer than I already have. Maybe it's not "Critical reading" skills you need.

    http://secure.hop.com/

    :biglaugh:
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You didn't say the same thing. In a different thread you said I needed to mind my own business and not judge people because I said homosexuality was a sin (although I constantly said that I wasn't juding people at all). Now you say that it's okay to judge acts. That's a complete flip-flop. It was especially hard to follow when you said that I couldn't judge anything because I don't know everything, and then you went through some weird argument about that and came out on the other side saying that knowledge had nothing to do with anything, and that I could judge stuff.
     
  14. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    Actually, yet again, please re-read your Critical Thinking thread.

    I NEVER said it's ok to judge acts. I NEVER said that you can't judge anything because you don't know everything.

    What I said is that I can determine for myself what I believe to be right or wrong. I will lead my life, based on those beliefs. I follow God's word, not the word of man.

    I said that no matter how much we believe that we are on the right track, NONE of us have all the answers. NONE of us are 100% right when it comes to judgement. We should definitely follow our heart when it comes to running or own lives. But I don't see the point in telling others how to live THEIR lives (See the difference). Since I don't have all the answers, and could very well be wrong in many of my beliefs, I will find that out come judgement day. I will have to answer for my actions and my beliefs. Only God can tell me if I am right or wrong.

    I see no point in telling others how to live THEIR lives. I see no point in judging others. My judgement of them means nothing. It's God who will judge, and God alone. I can force my beliefs on people from now until the day I day. But if I'm wrong, I will be the one to blame when they can't get into heaven. I see no point in that.

    Live according to your heart and your faith. Not by how someone else feels you should live.

    That message has been consistent through all these posts. You can continue to try and twist that, but it's been rather clear.
     
  15. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You should try to work on critical writing.

    You said you judge acts all the time with no qualms whatsoever. You judge what people do and even pray for them, because you judge them to be wrong. You judge the acts of the born-again christian who says homosexuality is a sin but commits adultery all the time.

    Since you I"m sure don't know everything, how can you be so sure that you are following God's word? Aren't you just following your judgement of which actions follow god's words and which ones don't?

    Doesn't that involve a judgement?

    Of course, and I don't tell people how to live their lives. You keep bringing up this tangent, and I don't quite understand why...

    Sure, it's clear what yiou're trying to say. IT's just unclear why you actually think that.
     
  16. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    Not quite, see below.

    Actually, I never said that. Please don't make up things that I never said.

    I did not judge her. I know that the Bible says the acts that she is commiting are sins, but do I know she would go to Hell for those? Not at all. Is it possible this is God's plan for her? Maybe she is to hit rock bottom before she can truly be saved. I do not know.
    The point of the story is to show that she has laid judgement down on others based on things she has read in scripture. Yet she has ignored other parts of scripture when it comes to her own life. Which again, goes to my point that I think it's more important for us to focus on our own sins, rather than on those of others.

    When did I ever say that I am sure I am following God's word? In fact (back to your critical reading assignment), I have stated quite a few times that while I feel in my heart I'm on the right path, I also know there's a good chance I'm no where close. All I can do is follow my faith. My faith tells me I'm walking the path that God has chosen for me. But I will not know for sure until I stand before the Lord.

    I think that way, because it is what Christ taught us. It's what I have come to understand through years of prayer and going to Church. When you open your heart and let Christ in, it's amazing the change it can make in your life. So, that's why I think the way I do.

    :162:

    Oh, and I've noticed you seem to want to try and turn the tables on me, and say that certain statements of mine are "judging". As I have also said, we are all sinners. None of us are perfect. While I do not believe I should judge, I am also human. I sin. I make mistakes. I do my very best not to judge others, and to have an open heart and an open mind. But there are lots of times when I fall, when I let things cloud my emotions. And when that happens, I pray. I pray for guidance, and I pray for forgiveness. I've never claimed to be perfect.
     
  17. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    You did judge her. You didn't come right out and say, "I make this judgement" but what you wrote about her shows that you did in fact judge her.

    And how do you feel that? By judging your actions and the Bible, and seeing how well they match up.

    It is what you have judged to be what christ has taught us. It is what, in your judgement, his message was.
     
  18. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    Aqualung, another story that might help you understand where I'm coming from.

    Think about the open road. People driving everywhere. To be a good driver, you need to pay attention to what you are doing, but you also need to keep your eyes open. Look both ways before pulling out. Keep an eye on what's going on behind you so you don't stop too suddenly, or make a quick turn if someone's on your tail. Lots of things to be aware of. But at the same time, pay attention to what you are doing.

    Often, when behind the wheel, people often get the feeling that they are always in the right. We spend much time looking at the faults of others. You get stuck behind a guy going 10mph below the limit. You see some guy tailgating you. You see someone pull out in front of you when they should have waited. We spend so much time judging the actions of others, that quite often, we don't realize the mistakes we are making ourselves.

    For instance, being stuck behind a slow driver. We get annoyed, we get mad. May yell some things out the window, blow the horn. Maybe you get so fed up with the actions of this person, you decide to pass them (illegally). Head into oncoming traffic, and hit someone else head on.

    Now while the person in front of you could have been going the speed limit, who is the one that caused injury? The person minding their own business? Or the person who judged them, and took action?

    Say you have someone tailgating you, and you get angry, judge them for driving unsafely, and decide to teach them a lesson and slam on your brakes, and they hit you. Now granted, they were driving unsafely, but who caused that accident? The person doing the judging.

    Sometimes, we focus so much on what everyone else is doing wrong, that we fail to see our own faults. And like it or not, that is human nature. It's a defense mechanism. Some of the most judgemental people out there, are also the most screwed up. I've had friends who just ripped people apart. Picking out every single fault in everyone they knew. It can often be an insecurity. The only way they can feel better about themselves is by putting someone else down.

    I think that happens a lot when it comes to religion. By judging others, and pointing out other people's faults, it makes us feel like we're in the right. Kinda like, "I know I'm a sinner, but at least I don't sin like the adulterers!"

    Sometimes, we just need to focus on ourselves. Work out or own problems. You don't get closer to God by finding fault in others.
     
  19. pdoel

    pdoel Active Member

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    For the last time, do NOT put words in my mouth, or feelings in my heart, that are not there. I do NOT judge her. I have no idea if she is God's good grace. I have NO idea what God's plan is for her. My only statement is that her actions, as described in Scripture, are sins, while the actions she condones, are also sins.

    Just to end this. Please sure me where I ever said I cannot form an opinion for myself, on how I should or should not live my life? You are using the word "judge" to describe just about any action any person takes. If I decide to eat toast tomorrow for breakfast instead of eggs, I guess I'm judging that toast is better than eggs. If I put on a green shirt, then I guess I'm judging that green is the best color.

    People can decide for themselves, how to live their lives. I have no problem with that. When people speak of the scripture, "Judge not, lest ye be judged.", in my opinion, I believe that to mean that we should not judge others, as we too, will be judged. I do not believe that means that we should sit here in a brain dead, catatonic state, with no thoughts, and just wait to die. We need to live our lives according to what we believe in our heart. But we need to let others do the same.

    Here are yet more examples. I do not believe in divorce. To me, when I make a promise to spend the rest of my life with someone, I intend to do just that. I will do whatever it takes to keep that promise. I think that's the way that God wants it to be. However, do I judge other people for getting divorced? No. For some people, maybe it's just not meant to be. There are times when I wished like crazy that they could make ammends and get back together. But I perfectly understand their needs to be apart. It is not my business to judge them. It's their life, and they must lead it. Same with abortion. In my heart, I feel abortion is wrong. If I were ever in the position to make the decision to have a baby or to abort it, I would say to have the baby every single time. No question about it. However, I do not judge others if they go that route. I would be sad for the child. I would pray for it's soul, and I would pray for the well being of the parents. I would pray that God helps them make the right decision. But I would not judge them. I have heard many arguments about pro-choice, and I can see many valid points to allowing it. But in my heart, I could never make the decision to abort a baby. But I do not believe in forcing my beliefs on someone else.
     
  20. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    To the illustration with the car: Maybe this is how you act when you judge people, but it is in no way how I act when I judge an action.

    This is EXACTLY what I said you did!! You made a judgement, that her actions were sins, based on your judgements of the scriptures!
     
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