christians - judging

[sojourner]

But let's back up a verse. NRSV, (arguably the most correct translation to date), states: Matt. 7:1, [Jesus says] "do not judge, so that you may not be judged."

That admonition seems very clear that we are not to judge others. That admonition is bolstered by vss 3-5: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

This follows Jesus' logic in the case of the prostitute who was being stoned. Jesus said, "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus is making a case for not acting in hypocrisy. We are not to judge others, because none of us is blameless and stands in a place where we are able to judge.

There is a time for judgment -- that time is God's time, and it's God's job.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But let's back up a verse. NRSV, (arguably the most correct translation to date), states: Matt. 7:1, [Jesus says] "do not judge, so that you may not be judged."

That admonition seems very clear that we are not to judge others. That admonition is bolstered by vss 3-5: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

This follows Jesus' logic in the case of the prostitute who was being stoned. Jesus said, "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus is making a case for not acting in hypocrisy. We are not to judge others, because none of us is blameless and stands in a place where we are able to judge.

There is a time for judgment -- that time is God's time, and it's God's job.

Explain then how this is not a judgement:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." Gal 2:11 KJV

 

[spookboy0]

Neither. Those are merely stating what is believed to be right and wrong.

When Christ said, "Judge not, lest you be judged," He meant "judge" as in "punish."

Just fill in the blank with these choices and see which fits the bill.

"State what is believed to be right or wrong not" or "Punish not."

I'll stick with the latter.

 

[sojourner]

Explain then how this is not a judgement:

"But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed." Gal 2:11 KJV

Blamed by who? For what? Blaming someone for a wrongdoing is not the same thing as standing in judgment. The cop blames the moving violation on the driver. The judge decides whether the blame is valid, and decides how to dispose the case.

 

[FFH]

Joseph Smith Translation or Inspired Version

Matthew 7: 2

"Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgement."

 

[Squirt]

Matthew 7: 1 (King James version)

"Judge not that ye be not judged"

Matthew 7: 2 (Joseph Smith translation or Inspired version)

"Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgement."


There is a time for forgiveness and grace, and then there is time for righteous judgement.

So what qualifies judgment as "righteous"? If you were to judge me, would you be right in doing so?

 

[FFH]

So what qualifies judgment as "righteous"? If you were to judge me, would you be right in doing so?

A bishop is someone who has authority over me, and many others, in my particular religion, and I would expect him to make righteous judgements, and decisions, concerning those he has authority over.

My grandfather is another example of a person who was expected to be a righteous judge. He was a divorce court judge, and was responsible for making righteous decisions, for those he was in authority over. He was expected to make righteous judgements or decisions.

A boss is expected to make righteous judgements over his, or her, employees.

A parent is expected to make righteous judgements, and decisions, concerning their children.

We judge one another, in order to protect ourselves from physical, emotional and spiritual harm. We should always judge righteously. We should never misjudge anyone. We must judge righteously, through the Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost, which comfirms truth to our minds and our hearts. This will help protect ourselves from the evil that is all around us, that could harm us, physically and spiritually.

 

[sojourner]

A bishop is someone who has authority over me, and many others, in my particular religion, and I would expect him to make righteous judgements, and decisions, concerning those he has authority over.

My grandfather is another example of a person who was expected to be a righteous judge. He was a divorce court judge, and was responsible for making righteous decisions, for those he was in authority over. He was expected to make righteous judgements or decisions.

A boss is expected to make righteous judgements over his, or her, employees.

A parent is expected to make righteous judgements, and decisions, concerning their children.

We judge one another, in order to protect ourselves from physical, emotional and spiritual harm. We should always judge righteously. We should never misjudge anyone. We must judge righteously, through the Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost, which comfirms truth to our minds and our hearts. This will help protect ourselves from the evil that is all around us, that could harm us, physically and spiritually.

In my faith, no one is "in authority" over me, save Jesus himself. We don't have bishops, and we don't have a church "hierarchy." Each person is expected to make his/her own decisions concerning spirituality, morality and ethics.

The types of judgments you use as examples (a judge, a parent raising children, a boss dealing with employees) are not the types of judgment outlined in the Matthew passage.

The admonition in Mt. 7:1, "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged," is a principle that is found in the Mishnah: "Do not judge your fellow until you are in his position." (Aboth 2:5), and, "When you judge any man weight the scales in his favor." (Aboth 1:6). In Luke 6:37 the saying is combined with commands to be merciful and generous. It's a warning against self-righteous severity.

It's the quick condemnation that Jesus is speaking of here. He draws a line between ethical appraisal and sharp-tongued criticism. Jesus says that critical censure is a boomerang.

You're right -- we should never misjudge anyone. We should be fair, we should be forbearing, we should always give the benefit of the doubt.

There's a difference between judging, or making a judgment, and standing in judgment against someone. Finger-pointing, gossip, condemnation, bigotry, berating, ostracizing -- these are actions that come from standing in judgment. You point the finger at someone, and someone could point a finger right back! This is the kind of judgmentalism that causes non-believers to hate us and distrust us!

If God is love, then God's word must be interpreted through the lens of loving attitudes and actions toward others. Sharp-tongued condemnation is never God's way.

 

[Mister_T]

But let's back up a verse. NRSV, (arguably the most correct translation to date), states: Matt. 7:1, [Jesus says] "do not judge, so that you may not be judged."

That admonition seems very clear that we are not to judge others. That admonition is bolstered by vss 3-5: "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'let me take the speck out of your eye,' while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye."

This follows Jesus' logic in the case of the prostitute who was being stoned. Jesus said, "Let the one among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jesus is making a case for not acting in hypocrisy. We are not to judge others, because none of us is blameless and stands in a place where we are able to judge.

There is a time for judgment -- that time is God's time, and it's God's job.

Agreed. When people get on Christians cases for pointing the finger (the anti-gay movement is a good example) they cry martyrdom. But this is not the case. What they are doing to others is being done to them and Jesus warned that this would happen. Mattew 7: 1-5 (NIV) "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers" There are a lot of people walking around with telephone poles in their eyes because they're pointing that self-righteous finger.

 

[sojourner]

Agreed. When people get on Christians cases for pointing the finger (the anti-gay movement is a good example) they cry martyrdom. But this is not the case. What they are doing to others is being done to them and Jesus warned that this would happen. Mattew 7: 1-5 (NIV) "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother 'Let me take the speck out of your eye' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? you hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers" There are a lot of people walking around with telephone poles in their eyes because they're pointing that self-righteous finger.

Absoloutely. This is a good lesson for all of us to remember. Christ always exhibited humility -- even when his position was good and when he was clearly "right" about an issue. He never ridiculed, or used low-blows, or jabbed at people with whom he disagreed. He spoke truth, and spoke it plainly -- and he listened to others. We would all do very well (even non-Christians) to take the good example of Christ upon us as a way to interact amicably with each other. That way, we avoid the "boomerang effect" that Jesus so warns of here. Acting and speaking judiciously is key.

 

[Aqualung]

Which of these, if any, is judgemental?

1) Rape is a sin.
2) Lying is a sin.
3) Homosexual acts are sins.
4) I am a better christian than you'll ever be.

 

[pdoel]

Which of these, if any, is judgemental?

1) Rape is a sin.
2) Lying is a sin.
3) Homosexual acts are sins.
4) I am a better christian than you'll ever be.

I think they are all judgements.

My view on judging is this. We ALL interpret God's word differently. These message boards are proof of that. Not one of us can honestly say we have all the answers or that our interpretation is correct. In fact, I would say not ONE human on this planet has all the answers.

With that in mind, who are we to judge anybody based on our interpretations? It seems rather pointless. If through my faith, I have found that I am the person I am meant to be, even if I am a homosexual, who is anybody else to tell me otherwise?

If it turns out come judgement day, that I am wrong and God punishes me, that is my business. No one elses. I will pay for my sins, just like you will pay for yours.

I think that as long as we live our own lives according to our beliefs, we will be fine. If you believe homosexuality is a sin and do not live a homosexual lifestyle, that is great. If I believe it is not a sin and I do live a homosexual lifestyle, that's great too.

I should not impose my views on you, and you should not impose your views on me. God is the only judge that matters. I will be judged by God, not by man.

 

[sojourner]

I think they are all judgements.

My view on judging is this. We ALL interpret God's word differently. These message boards are proof of that. Not one of us can honestly say we have all the answers or that our interpretation is correct. In fact, I would say not ONE human on this planet has all the answers.

With that in mind, who are we to judge anybody based on our interpretations? It seems rather pointless. If through my faith, I have found that I am the person I am meant to be, even if I am a homosexual, who is anybody else to tell me otherwise?

If it turns out come judgement day, that I am wrong and God punishes me, that is my business. No one elses. I will pay for my sins, just like you will pay for yours.

I think that as long as we live our own lives according to our beliefs, we will be fine. If you believe homosexuality is a sin and do not live a homosexual lifestyle, that is great. If I believe it is not a sin and I do live a homosexual lifestyle, that's great too.

I should not impose my views on you, and you should not impose your views on me. God is the only judge that matters. I will be judged by God, not by man.

:clap I think that's what Jesus was saying. I say that, too. Thank you.:highfive:

 

[Aqualung]

He who is without sin, cast the first sin. NOT: you don't even know this person is sinning. NOT: this person is not a sinner. NOT: how could you even think that this person is sinning, you don't even know what sin is! Christ wants us to know what sins are. He wants us to have that knowledge. That's why he spent so much time trying to explain to us what sin was. He never wanted us to walk around blindly or obliviously. He just didn't want us to be blind to ourselves.

 

[dawny0826]

He who is without sin, cast the first sin. NOT: you don't even know this person is sinning. NOT: this person is not a sinner. NOT: how could you even think that this person is sinning, you don't even know what sin is! Christ wants us to know what sins are. He wants us to have that knowledge. That's why he spent so much time trying to explain to us what sin was. He never wanted us to walk around blindly or obliviously. He just didn't want us to be blind to ourselves.

I hear you.

To live a Christian life is to live a life as free of sin as possible...to strive to pick up our own cross and follow Christ. I'm completely aware of sin. And that awareness promotes a little something called conviction...which triggers spiritual growth.

 

[pdoel]

He who is without sin, cast the first sin. NOT: you don't even know this person is sinning. NOT: this person is not a sinner. NOT: how could you even think that this person is sinning, you don't even know what sin is! Christ wants us to know what sins are. He wants us to have that knowledge. That's why he spent so much time trying to explain to us what sin was. He never wanted us to walk around blindly or obliviously. He just didn't want us to be blind to ourselves.

You asked a question, and I answered it according to my beliefs. If you want us to be accepting of your beliefs, you may want to try and be accepting of ours.

Your interpretation of scripture is no more valid than mine.

 

[Aqualung]

You asked a question, and I answered it according to my beliefs. If you want us to be accepting of your beliefs, you may want to try and be accepting of ours.

Your interpretation of scripture is no more valid than mine.

Sorry, bro, but it's a debate forum. If you don't want me to debate your views, don't post. Debates are not a place to just hear somebody and then acceeeept them - they're a place to take the view and debate it. You know, debate things in a debate forum.

 

[sojourner]

He who is without sin, cast the first sin. NOT: you don't even know this person is sinning. NOT: this person is not a sinner. NOT: how could you even think that this person is sinning, you don't even know what sin is! Christ wants us to know what sins are. He wants us to have that knowledge. That's why he spent so much time trying to explain to us what sin was. He never wanted us to walk around blindly or obliviously. He just didn't want us to be blind to ourselves.

OK. Know in your own mind what you believe sin to be, and try to avoid that yourself. Why are you wanting to be a busybody, telling everyone else what you think their sins are? Nobody cares! The whole "cast the first stone" (not "sin") thing was about the tenet of taking care of your own righteousness, rather than butting in on everyone elses'. Let others take care of themselves, please.

 

[Aqualung]

Becuase it's a freaking debate forum!! If you're not allowed to propose your views on what sin is or what sin isn't, what the heck is this forum here for?!

I dont' go around telling people that they are sinning. I joined a debate forum to tell people in general what I thought sins were in general. Taht's not being a busy body.

If you don't care what I think, don't read the threads. It's fairly simple. You can't just come to a debate forum and expect that I just won't say anything because you don't want to hear it. That's not what debate forums are for.

 

[michel]

Becuase it's a freaking debate forum!! If you're not allowed to propose your views on what sin is or what sin isn't, what the heck is this forum here for?!

I dont' go around telling people that they are sinning. I joined a debate forum to tell people in general what I thought sins were in general. Taht's not being a busy body.

If you don't care what I think, don't read the threads. It's fairly simple. You can't just come to a debate forum and expect that I just won't say anything because you don't want to hear it. That's not what debate forums are for.

There are different ways of saying "Well, I have to apply different rules for myself, from the perspective of my Faith, as you do yours".

A debate isn't there to say " My beliefs are more correct than yours"..........