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Christians: It Is Presumptuous To Presume...

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by ChristineES, Nov 8, 2010.

  1. Arkholt

    Arkholt Non-vessel

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    Hmm. Often, when I see on the news that someone has been hateful or even killed in the name of Christianity, I come to the conclusion that they are not true Christians. I think that is acceptable, but that's just me.

    Separating people as Christian or not based on slight differences in belief is quite silly, though.
     
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  2. Midnight Pete

    Midnight Pete Well-Known Member

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    I think you're right. But to err is human.
     
  3. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I agree. Most Christians try to make lists of things that a person must believe in order to be a Christian. Obviously that list always includes the things he or she believes and excludes the things he or she does not believe. God doesn't look at it that way at all. God looks beyond those things. That's what I tell myself when people try to tell me I'm not a Christian.
     
  4. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
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    If I see a guy who goes to church, wears a cross, etc. go out and say hateful things to other people, cheats on his/her spouse, and that sort of things, then I will, in my mind, question his/her faith. But the final word is from God. :) (That means I agree with you).
     
  5. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Let me try and wrap my head around this. Suppose I believe in Jesus, then go about mistakenly trying to do enough good deeds to get to heaven. You are saying I'm going to hell instead?
     
  6. bobhikes

    bobhikes AntiRepublican
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    I agree that christian forums are annoying. Being very nice in my discription.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Okay, Sandy... What's up?
     
  8. angellous_evangellous

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    Blasphemy!
     
  9. Midnight Pete

    Midnight Pete Well-Known Member

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    I sometimes wear a small metal cross made of nails and wire but always tucked into my shirt. I do this because of how the cross as a symbol is being horrifically misused these days. It's become the standard for gangbanger jewellry. This is but one of the many ways the world and its prince are waging war against God.


    [​IMG]


    Here is a much plainer, saner cross pendant.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    Eph says, you are saved by grace alone through faith, this not of yourselves, it is a gift from God so that no man can boast....in his so called deeds. You either are aiming on heaven through faith in Jesus alone, which is the primary step and than doing works that are indictitive of the fruits of the new nature you have taken on in Christ, which is secondary, yet they both go hand in hand, but the latter seems to be only an effect or product of the primary step of faith alone.
    I mean how can anyone who is saved and filled with the Holy Spirit not bare fruits worthy of repentance.
    Remembering that belief in God alone was insufficient and that even the demons believe and tremble.
    I Cor 3..clearly describes a smiliar scenario where a man who builds on any other foundation that that which is laid ,that being Jesus Christ...it will be burned up and the fire will test the sort of work it is..you may be saved yourself ,yet as one excaping through the flames.........by the hair of your chin, basically.

    ..always up for interpretation and personal conviction I suppose
     
  11. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    True enough. Particularly your last line.

    I'm curious as to what you think Jesus meant in Matthew 25:31-46?

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    For the record, I too believe that salvation is a gift and that we cannot earn our way into Heaven through our good works. On the other hand, I believe that there will be a time when we stand before God to be judged of our works. When that happens, I certainly hope to be counted among the sheep. I don't want to be among those who has to say, "Uh... didn't I just have to believe?"
     
  12. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I was having some fun but I got deleted.:shrug:
     
  13. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Legalist. I think that Jesus might be a bit more forgiving for our ignorance than that.
     
  14. Politesse

    Politesse Amor Vincit Omnia

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    I try to avoid the trap of deciding whether someone else is a true Christian or not. After all, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things." If I do feel that someone is being, well, less than Christian, it's never on account of what they believe. Rather, following the advice of my master, I look to the fruit of their labor. Good trees make good fruit, and bad trees bad. Trying to judge a man on the basis of what they believe is like trying to judge a tree by its species rather than its fruit, and it is an activity for the unwise.
     
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  15. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    That faith would be weak.
    And that un-Biblical belief would diminish your relationship with Jesus, by diminishing
    your appreciation of what he really did for you,
    your grasp of God's view of sin and sinners (it required the sacrificial death of his own Son to make it right between you and him),
    your freedom in Christ,
    your trust in God and Christ for everything,
    the glory of God in your free salvation, by taking some of the credit in earning it.

    Christianity is the only non-works based religion on earth.
    All other religions require works, in addition to faith, to be saved from God's just wrath on their sin.

    However, Christians are also to obey Christ's commands, because they love him. . .it is the evidence of their love, faith and commitment to him.
    But that obedience does not contribute to their salvation from God's just wrath on their sin. . .it is simply the evidence of their faith, which alone saves.

    If God were to ask you at the gate of heaven, why he should allow you in, what would you answer?
     
  16. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    Note the judgment is based on how the sheep and the goats treated the people of God.
    There is only one people of God. . .those who believe in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18,36).

    The way the sheep treated those in Christ is evidence of their faith, which saves from God's wrath.
    The way the goats treated those in Christ is evidence of their unbelief, which condemns to the wrath of God (Jn 3:18,36).
    But judgment being based on the treatment of those in Christ, it's still about faith in Jesus Christ which saves, and unbelief in Jesus Christ which condemns.

    Remember, at this point Jesus had not yet died, none of the disciples knew anything of his sacrificial death,
    and Paul had not yet been converted to write the epistles which explain it all.
    So, their limited understanding limited what Jesus could reveal at the time.
     
    #36 smokydot, Nov 28, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2010
  17. smokydot

    smokydot Well-Known Member

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    That's not what the NT says.
     
  18. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  19. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    Hello Sandy...actually He is very merciful and patient not willing that any man perish..but at the same time, I think there is genuine ignorance than there is wilful ignorance, where one falls is between them and God, keeping in mind that Rom 1 states all man have an inherent knowledge and manifestation of God and will be without excuse on the judgment day God has ordained ..according to scripture.

    Act 17:30 — And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:


    2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
     
  20. Civil Shephard

    Civil Shephard Active Member

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    Heavy as such presumptuous provocation can be I've learned to have mercy on those who are acting like pharisees and pretending to be Jesus. It's was sometimes tempting to me as a new believer to just feel so bad for all those people who were going to hell for not believing in Jesus the way I did. I'll never forget the day I read the woe's that Jesus said to the Scribes and Pharisees and his Holy Spirit showed me what I'd been thinking and saying and how I'd been praying and behaving that was more like some self appointed high priest than his humble disciple.

    After all... I was a Kings Kid made to be adored and listened to as I sang with my beautiful voice and humbly washed toilets!

    Well... to me we grow from faith to faith and even better from love to love and perhaps even better from "I don't know" to "I'm sorry I really just don't know".

    And one day I woke up and realized I'm not a true Christian... and I'm still not a true Christian but I believe it is possible to be a true Christian and I know some that I believe are true Christians but most of them don't believe they are true Christians either... that could be why their my true friends. And I suppose I'd rather be thought of as a true friend than a true Christian any day. Both would be nice... but I secretly believe Jesus wants me to be his friend and not his servant so I just go there in my presumptuous heart from time to time.
     
    #40 Civil Shephard, Jan 13, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2011
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