Christians in the military

[Meshak]

I think jingoism and religion can often get mixed up together.

what is jingoism?

 

[sojourner]

Sorry, Jesus is the one knows what is love or not. He is the teacher and He says to love your enemy and you reject His commands. You dont seem to love Jesus.

Again: I disagree wholeheartedly. That's not biblical theology at all. The bible makes it abundantly clear that we do know what love is, and that it is our loving response to God's loving call that completes reconciliation.

You're making claims and passing judgment where none is warranted. I don't reject Christ's teaching to love my enemies. I don't think you've at all shown that I "don't seem to love Jesus."

God's grace is not license to sin.

I didn't say it was. But sin happens. That's a biblical concept that humanity cannot escape. And God's grace is found where sin hurts us most.

Because you reason Jesus' command by your own desires. This is self-centered, not Jesus' centered.

Where in this statement:

What's self-centered about self-care? What's self-centered about protecting your friends and family? Isn't that part of what Jesus asks us to do: Take care of our loved ones?

do you find that I'm "reasoning by my own desire?" Protecting those we are designed to protect is selfless, not selfish.

Jesus says His followers are not of this world, He also says let the dead bury their own dead. The military is of this world. Jesus' followers have responsibility to teach people about God's kingdom.

Please show references that point to Jesus saying this. And the "dead burying their own dead" statement has nothing to do with military service. Of course the military is of this world. So is tyranny and violence, from which the military seeks to protect us.

dying for Jesus is not being victim. It is about being faithful to Jesus. It is victory.

"Dying for Jesus" is martyrdom. Dying for Jesus is a choice that is made on the part of the individual. It has nothing to do with victimization, which is not a choice, but is perpetrated upon the victim by an oppressor or bully. The military protects those who do not wish to make that choice, or who cannot make that choice (such as children). Allowing a guy with a gun to kill our innocent children isn't victory in Jesus -- it's just stupid irresponsibility.

 

[sojourner]

Sojourner and mestemia,
Our discourse is becoming plain bickering. It is not of Jesus. I will ignore both of you.

blessings.

You appear to be the one who's bickering. Mestemia and I are pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. That's not "bickering," it's debating (which is, after all, the purpose of this thread).

 

[Meshak]

You appear to be the one who's bickering. Mestemia and I are pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. That's not "bickering," it's debating (which is, after all, the purpose of this thread).

It is your right to kill your enemy, Jesus will not force you.

good day.

 

[Shermana]

are you saying it is ok to be violent if you are not angry? do you know sick person kill anyone without anger?

Yes, I'm saying it's ok to be violent if you are not angry if you have an actually justified (and generally legal) cause, like you know, saving your life or stopping your girlfriend or child from getting raped (or yourself) or from getting maimed or robbed or doing it because your it's your government appointed duty even.

You also completely ignored what I said that Jesus says ANYONE who "takes the sword" will die by the sword. Yet, I know of WW2 veterans who never took a hit in combat, and their deaths had nothing to do with violence. By your interpretation, EVERYONE who goes to war will die by combat-related wounds. This is simply not the case. So you're stuck with calling Jesus a liar, or you may want to re-think what Jesus means by "Take the sword". He's most likely referring to using the sword in an unjustified, unprovoked manner. Please don't ignore that point next time.

According to Romans 13, if the government says fight, you fight.

Christians are Jesus' followers; Jesus corrected and upgraded many, many of OT teachings and practice. Christianity is not Judaism.

Jesus was a follower of God. The idea that his teachings trump and negate prior past teachings is a false and erroneous concept of which I'll be glad to take it to an approrpriate thread. The only thing Jesus was correcting was false interpretations of the Law from the Proto-Talmudic Pharisees and Sadducees. Christianity IS Judaism, it's a refined (or rather paleo) version of pre-Essene Judaism, minus the Pharisee and Sadducee trappings. This is one of my favorite points of contention in debate, and if you want to disagree with this concept, I can go the whole ropes with it.

Jesus never said you can kill your enemy if you are defending yourself. Please read the OP what He sasy about "love your enemy".

Jesus also never said you can do the hokey pokey, he also didn't say you couldn''t pee in the public well. Please read the following sentence: Your interpretation is not necessarily correct of what Jesus means by "Love your enemy".

Jesus blesses everyone who die because of His teachings.

Yes he does, and not everyone interprets his teachings correctly. Like people who think you're supposed to let yourself get raped, maimed, or murdered instead of fighting back.

turn the other cheek means dont attack back. This is my contextual meaning

.

If that's what Jesus meant for all occasions and not the interpretation I showed you, Jesus was teaching painful suicide and worse. I would never listen to such hogwash and I pity the fool who would.

BTW, I dont believe everything written in the OT is God inspired. I am not saying God is wrong at all. The writers are all human, it could be just their own faith.

Ah, so you're willing to throw the OT writings under the bus, but you somehow think everything ascribed to Jesus is God inspired? Would you accept the possibility that maybe "Love your enemy" and "Turn the other Cheek" was a later addition by overzealous pacifists, or worse, infiltrators trying to get Christians to not defend themselves? Or is it only the OT writings that you disagree with? So you believe that ALL the accounts of the war fighting in the OT are spurious?

I say this because God and Jesus are love and it seems there are too many of the accounts are against their loving and merciful traits.

How Loving was Jesus when he took a whip of cords to the Pharisees? How loving was God when he struck Ananias and Saphira dead for merely lying about the value of their home? Your definition of "love" may be missing a whole dimension of what it means to defend that love.

blessings.

Thank you, may you be blessed with receptiveness to reason.

 

[Meshak]

Yes, I'm saying it's ok to be violent if you are not angry if you have an actually justified (and generally legal) cause,

Ok, it is your prerogative. Jesus does not condone any kind of violence for His followers.

this thread is about "Christians in the military", friend.

And it is about what Jesus says about killing your enemy.

good day.

 

[McBell]

Sojourner and mestemia,
Our discourse is becoming plain bickering. It is not of Jesus. I will ignore both of you.

blessings.

No surprise there.
You are well schooled at ignoring things you do not want to hear.

 

[Meshak]

No surprise there.
You are well schooled at ignoring things you do not want to hear.

good day, sir.

 

[Shermana]

Ok, it is your prerogative. Jesus does not condone any kind of violence for His followers.

this thread is about "Christians in the military", friend.

And it is about what Jesus says about killing your enemy.

good day.

Excellent job at ignoring what I said about "take the sword" as well as everything else I said, you do a wonderful service for whatever view point you are trying to endorse by showing your expert dodging from valid counterpoints.

Jesus never condoned completely dodging people's questions and counter-assertion. In fact, Peter says to be ready to answer to every question and counter-assertion.

So try not to violate what the Bible says so much.

 

[Meshak]

Excellent job at ignoring what I said about "take the sword" as well as everything else I said, you do a wonderful service for whatever view point you are trying to endorse by showing your expert dodging from valid counterpoints.

Jesus never condoned completely dodging people's questions and counter-assertion. In fact, Peter says to be ready to answer to every question and counter-assertion.

So try not to violate what the Bible says so much.

Jesus says dont throw pearls to the pigs. I am not saying you are a pig. What He is saying is to avoid meaningless doctrine arguments who are not interested in what Jesus has to say.

Jesus word is pearls.

blessings.

 

[sojourner]

It is your right to kill your enemy, Jesus will not force you.

good day.

this doesn't speak to the post, nor does address your issue in the least. Not only have you evaded my rebuttal, you've even managed to evade your own challenge!

If I read you correctly, you contend that no real Christian can, in good conscience, join the military, because the military is counterintuitive to what Jesus taught: absolute pacifism.

First of all, you've managed to present a "no true Scotsman fallacy," because you're assuming that "Love your enemies" somehow has something to do with "Don't kill your enemies."

Second, you're assuming that Jesus taught total pacifism. He did not. Passive resistance and pacifism are not the same thing. Nor is passive resistance implied in "turn the other cheek."

No wonder you don't last long in your other forums. You put forth fallacies, neglect to adequately address rebuttals and then become dismissive when you sense that others are making more sense than you are. :ignore:

At least Jesus met his adversaries head-on in a battle of wits, using rational arguments based upon a true knowledge of doctrine and belief. You're not doing that here (or, I suspect, anywhere else).

 

[Breathe]

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[AdityaMookerjee]

It is allowed in the most Christian community in USA.

Jesus says to "love your enemy", yet they come up with all kinds of excuses to justify this sinful practice by the churches. we dont love anyone by killing or destroying the country. It is that simple.

Here is what Jesus has to say:Luke 6:27-36 King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Fatheralso is merciful.

and some more:

Matthew 26:52
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

And His faithful disciple harmonize with Jesus' word:

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 corinthian 10:4-5)

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."


PS: I hope I am allowed to speak against Christians practice military using Jesus' name.

I have been banned most forums because of my anti-mainstream convictions. My staying the same forum is 6 months average.

blessings

Jesus said the saying, I can only presume, because he was going to, according to his close disciples, die like they would also die. People believe, they will live forever, in perception. We don't actually realise, we have aged, our family has aged, and so has everyone. Obviously, people do act in a manner, and if you are the cause of death, so is everyone, of themselves, and each other. It appears, that people are voicing negligence of doctors, ordinary people, etc. Can a person not blame the self, and others, and can others do the same by him too? In what circumstance, today, is this possible? We as democracies, have completely discounted ourselves, because to us, our govt. is changed by us, as and when we want. Have chickens 'come home to roost?' it seems, really a time will come, when we will not want accountability to society as individuals. Do we want this? We might want a person to have absolute rule over us. And, who would want to do it? You? Or me? Believe me, I cannot fathom, what kind of person would want to notice what happens in govt., being in govt. Also, why we do it, is because of our everyday issues. The govt. seems to indicate how our day will go.

 

[Meshak]

Jesus said the saying, I can only presume, because he was going to, according to his close disciples, die like they would also die. People believe, they will live forever, in perception. We don't actually realise, we have aged, our family has aged, and so has everyone. Obviously, people do act in a manner, and if you are the cause of death, so is everyone, of themselves, and each other. It appears, that people are voicing negligence of doctors, ordinary people, etc. Can a person not blame the self, and others, and can others do the same by him too? In what circumstance, today, is this possible? We as democracies, have completely discounted ourselves, because to us, our govt. is changed by us, as and when we want. Have chickens 'come home to roost?' it seems, really a time will come, when we will not want accountability to society as individuals. Do we want this? We might want a person to have absolute rule over us. And, who would want to do it? You? Or me? Believe me, I cannot fathom, what kind of person would want to notice what happens in govt., being in govt. Also, why we do it, is because of our everyday issues. The govt. seems to indicate how our day will go.

Jesus teaches us how to live peaceful and loving in God's eyes. If you cannot accept His teachings, He and His God is not for you. He does not force His teachings to anyone. His teachings are for His followers only. MY op is "Christians in the military".

blessings.

 

[averageJOE]

Jesus dosn't condone violence and murder, it's never ok...unless god does it.

 

[Meshak]

Jesus dosn't condone violence and murder, it's never ok...unless god does it.

What do you mean by this?

 

[averageJOE]

[/b]

What do you mean by this?

Do you really need verses from your own bible describing how god himself kills people, or orders others to do it? Because I'm not.

 

[Meshak]

Do you really need verses from your own bible describing how god himself kills people, or orders others to do it? Because I'm not.

God owns the world and He makes up the rules to have peaceful and loving world.

If we dont like His condition to live in His world, we will not be welcomed. IN the mean time, He is giving us chance to know His rules and obey.

blessings.

 

[averageJOE]

God owns the world and He makes up the rules to have peaceful and loving world.

If we dont like His condition to live in His world, we will not be welcomed. IN the mean time, He is giving us chance to know His rules and obey.

blessings.

Gotta love double standards.

Jesus says it's not ok to kill and murder, unless god does it.

 

[Meshak]

Gotta love double standards.

Jesus says it's not ok to kill and murder, unless god does it.

If you dont like Jesus' standards, it is ok, but saying He has double standards seems hateful comments.

He does not have double standards. Jesus is perfect and sinless, so He can judge the world when the time comes.