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Christians in the military

Meshak

Active Member
Meshak, as long as your intentions for joining this forum are to engage in fellowship with our 40,000+ members and not to promote an agenda, you have found a life time home here at RF.

You have every right to have a non-mainstream opinion and as long as you stick to what is said here and not make it personal and follow our simple rules, you will not have any problems here at all.

If you have any questions about the rules, you can always start a thread in "Site Feedback" where the staff will assist your every inquiry.

I would like to welcome you to the forum and hope you can be a long time member here.

P.S. I would love to see you comment on other scripture that has been presented to you and hear your opinions on this.

thank you, I have read your rules and it says a lot. So I dont know if I am in line with your rules.

How am I doing so far?

PS, I usually quote the scriptures that most mainstream churches are disregarding in their practice or in their doctrines. So I will not try to accommodate to what I observe as perverted faith. and I put a lot of verses to support my claim in my op in this thread about my topic too.

And I am Jesus' servant and I spread what I am supposed to be doing to serve Him by following my convictions.

thank you for your welcome.

Blessings.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I understand that. They are very few.



Jesus never condone killing or any kind of violence. Pleas read the OP.



We cannot love anyone by killing or fighting physically. Please read the OP.


this has nothing to do with tolerating violence.

Pro-military churches claim Jesus is not pacifist by quoting the Revelation of Jesus' role. But that is absurd, Jesus will judge all of us when the time comes. In the mean time, His followers have responsibility to show Jesus' love to the world, not by engaging in the wars like the rest of the world.

Jesus says His followers are not of this world. His followers are salt and light of the world. We cannot be salt and light by fighting at the war.
But these are not commandments. And the statements are all taken completely out of context, so using these "biblical proofs" is really no proof at all.

Let's talk about love for a moment. When soldiers come to take away your school age daughter to rape her and kill her, which is the more loving act: To reneg on your duty to protect your beloved child, thereby allowing her to be killed, or to save her life by killing a transgressor who is clearly morally in the wrong?

Part of salt's job is to fight degradation. Which is part of the soldier's job, as well.

While Jesus preached peace, I'm not sure a completely pacifist stance is ethically possible in a violent world, primarily because if one is not resistant to the violence, one is complicit in it.
 

Meshak

Active Member
But these are not commandments. And the statements are all taken completely out of context, so using these "biblical proofs" is really no proof at all.

All Jesus' teachings and His commandments.

Let's talk about love for a moment. When soldiers come to take away your school age daughter to rape her and kill her, which is the more loving act: To reneg on your duty to protect your beloved child, thereby allowing her to be killed, or to save her life by killing a transgressor who is clearly morally in the wrong?

I am talking about Christians in the military. what you are talking about it different subject. What I am talking about is organizational sin. The organizations promote to let your daughter be raped by the rapist.

Part of salt's job is to fight degradation. Which is part of the soldier's job, as well.

It is not main goal of the military.

While Jesus preached peace, I'm not sure a completely pacifist stance is ethically possible in a violent world, primarily because if one is not resistant to the violence, one is complicit in it.

Jesus did not condone killing anyone, even for self defense. It is not time to kill your enemy. Jesus will judge the whole world when the time comes. We are not Jesus and not the judge of the world.
 

Shermana

Heretic
When Peter lobbed off the Priest's servant's ear, it was an unprovoked attack. Something to keep in mind. Peter was likely striking in anger, not in vain hopes of rescuing Jesus from the armed goons sent to arrest him.

Jesus also said those who "take" the sword will die by the sword. Yet I know of WW2 veterans who saw active combat and some who have died peacefully or due to illness. Another question is, was he instituting a new principle? Because the Father Himself had instructed Israelite soldiers to fight.

Unless you want to say that Jesus was wrong, he was most likely referring to taking the sword in a manner of not having to. Like using it in anger against someone rather than defending yourself or doing as your government instructs.

The idea that a Christian should never resist violence is worse than suicidal.

One of the few articles I agree with from Gotquestions, which explains what "Turn the other cheek" actually means. (I.e. not allowing yourself to be brutally murdered/maimed/assaulted)

http://www.gotquestions.org/turn-other-cheek.html
 
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Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
yes, and if God says to love your enemies, then that takes precedence over a governments request to participate in their war.

Early christians would not join the roman armies...thats quite a well recorded historical fact.

Saint Alban, a roman soldier, became the first British Saint
There have been many soldier saints

Acacius of Byzantium, patron saint of soldiers
Adrian of Nicomedia
Saint Alfred the Great
Saint Crescentinus
Saint Demetrius of Thessaloniki
Saint Eustace - a Roman general, but in the West usually shown hunting.
Saint Exuperius ("Theban Legion")
Saint Florian
Saint Francis of Assisi
The Four Holy Marshals
Saint George
Saint Géréon of Cologne
Saint Ignatius of Loyola
Saint James the Great, reimagined as "Santiago" during the Spanish Reconquista
Saint Longinus, who pierced Christ's side at the Crucifixion
Saint Joan of Arc
Saint Ladislaus I of Hungary. His cult developed with deep roots in the Medieval Central Europe.
Saint Marcellus the Centurion
Saint Martin of Tours
Saint Maurice and the "Theban Legion" (Saint Candidus et al.)
Saint Menas
Saint Mercurius
Saint Michael
Saint Nuno Álvares Pereira
Saint Orestes (Edistus)
Saint Sebastian
Saints Sergius and Bacchus, protectors of the Byzantine army
Saint Terence of Pesaro
Saint Theodore of Amasea, also known as Theodore Tyron (Recruit) or Theodore of Euchaita
Saint Theodore the General, also known as Theodore Stratelates or Theodore of Heraklea
Saint Typasius
Saint Victor
Saint William
 

Meshak

Active Member
When Peter lobbed off the Priest's servant's ear, it was an unprovoked attack. Something to keep in mind. Peter was likely striking in anger, not in vain hopes of rescuing Jesus from the armed goons sent to arrest him.
are you saying it is ok to be violent if you are not angry? do you know sick person kill anyone without anger?
Jesus also said those who "take" the sword will die by the sword. Yet I know of WW2 veterans who saw active combat and some who have died peacefully or due to illness. Another question is, was he instituting a new principle? Because the Father Himself had instructed Israelite soldiers to fight.
Christians are Jesus' followers; Jesus corrected and upgraded many, many of OT teachings and practice. Christianity is not Judaism.
Unless you want to say that Jesus was wrong, he was most likely referring to taking the sword in a manner of not having to. Like using it in anger against someone rather than defending yourself or doing as your government instructs.
Jesus never said you can kill your enemy if you are defending yourself. Please read the OP what He sasy about "love your enemy".
The idea that a Christian should never resist violence is worse than suicidal.
Jesus blesses everyone who die because of His teachings.
One of the few articles I agree with from Gotquestions, which explains what "Turn the other cheek" actually means. (I.e. not allowing yourself to be brutally murdered/maimed/assaulted)
turn the other cheek means dont attack back. This is my contextual meaning.

BTW, I dont believe everything written in the OT is God inspired. I am not saying God is wrong at all. The writers are all human, it could be just their own faith.

I say this because God and Jesus are love and it seems there are too many of the accounts are against their loving and merciful traits.

blessings.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
are you saying it is ok to be violent if you are not angry? do you know sick person kill anyone without anger?
Way to completely miss the point.

Jesus never said you can kill your enemy if you are defending yourself. Please read the OP what He sasy about "love your enemy".
Interesting that you jump at the "Jesus never said" here but completely ignore the fact that Jesus never said anything about the military...

Hypocrite much?

BTW, I dont believe everything written in the OT is God inspired. I am not saying God is wrong at all. The writers are all human, it could be just their own faith.

I say this because God and Jesus are love and it seems there are too many of the accounts are against their loving and merciful traits.
so basically you just pick and choose what you want out the Bible?

Of course, I already called that out when you flat out refused to address the verses I listed which directly contradict your claim...
 

Meshak

Active Member
Way to completely miss the point.
I dont think so.
Interesting that you jump at the "Jesus never said" here but completely ignore the fact that Jesus never said anything about the military...
If we read Jesus' preaching of "love your enemy" we would know that the military is not way of Jesus' followers.
Hypocrite much?
How?
so basically you just pick and choose what you want out the Bible?
I trust Jesus' word because His word is consistent in all His word. And If they dont harmonize with Jesus' word, I disregard.
Of course, I already called that out when you flat out refused to address the verses I listed which directly contradict your claim...
I dont argue about the verses which does not harmonize with Jesus' word.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
All Jesus' teachings and His commandments.
Not necessarily. Teachings and commandments are not the same thing. Since the New Covenant is not predicated upon a relationship of Law but upon a relationship of mutuality, "commandment" simply doesn't fit the bill.
I am talking about Christians in the military. what you are talking about it different subject. What I am talking about is organizational sin. The organizations promote to let your daughter be raped by the rapist.
who's going to save innocents from being killed, though? You see, one way or the other, killing is going to occur. We are complicit in the killing act, whether we perpetrate it, or whether we allow it to happen. In a perfect world, no killing would be happening. But this isn't a perfect world, it's a sinful world, and every single one of us -- Christian or no -- is involved in the sin of systemic violence, whether we're in the army or not. The real issue isn't avoiding the sin, the real issue is seeking God's grace in the midst of sin.
It is not main goal of the military.
The main goal of the military is to protect our interests and defend the constitution (from the degradation of being ruined, stolen, or destroyed).
Jesus did not condone killing anyone, even for self defense. It is not time to kill your enemy. Jesus will judge the whole world when the time comes. We are not Jesus and not the judge of the world.
Jesus didn't condone murder. But military killing isn't murder. Murder is illegal. Military action is not.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Jesus never said you can kill your enemy if you are defending yourself. Please read the OP what He sasy about "love your enemy".
He didn't say you couldn't, either. One doesn't have to hate -- or even be ambivalent -- toward another to kill. "Love" and "Kill" are not polar opposites.
Jesus blesses everyone who die because of His teachings.
Martyrdom and mass victimization are not the same thing.
turn the other cheek means dont attack back.
That's not what it means. It means to force the one who would shame you to act shamefully, himself.
 

Meshak

Active Member
Not necessarily. Teachings and commandments are not the same thing. Since the New Covenant is not predicated upon a relationship of Law but upon a relationship of mutuality, "commandment" simply doesn't fit the bill.
I understand many Christians take it that way, but Jesus is His followers' Lord, everything He says are commandments. He is not asking us to follow, he is telling us to follow Him.
who's going to save innocents from being killed, though?
You dont know who is innocent or not at the war. It is mass killing.
The main goal of the military is to protect our interests and defend the constitution (from the degradation of being ruined, stolen, or destroyed).
Jesus' followers are not to be self centered. We live for Christ, what He commands goes.
Jesus didn't condone murder. But military killing isn't murder. Murder is illegal. Military action is not.
Ok, that your interpretation. Jesus does not condone any violence, period. Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone, not even for self defense. Blessed are those who die for His name's sake.

there are tons of Christians who died and tortured for Jesus.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I understand many Christians take it that way, but Jesus is His followers' Lord, everything He says are commandments. He is not asking us to follow, he is telling us to follow Him.
I disagree wholeheartedly. We follow because we love. Love cannot be commanded, only asked.
You dont know who is innocent or not at the war. It is mass killing.
Yes, it is -- and its ugly business. Which is why God's grace is so necessary.
Jesus' followers are not to be self centered. We live for Christ, what He commands goes.
What's self-centered about self-care? What's self-centered about protecting your friends and family? Isn't that part of what Jesus asks us to do: Take care of our loved ones?
Ok, that your interpretation. Jesus does not condone any violence, period.
Right. Yet, Jesus also wants us to take care of those in our charge. And sometimes that means meeting violence with violence. That's why sin is systemic and not individual.
there are tons of Christians who died and tortured for Jesus.
Martyrdom is a choice. Victimization is not. There's a difference. We are called to defend the victimized.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I dont think so.
Ah, so you are admitting to ignoring another point that contradicts your preconceived notion?

If we read Jesus' preaching of "love your enemy" we would know that the military is not way of Jesus' followers.
No, we wouldn't.
Simply because Jesus never said anything at all about the military.

You beleive something based on the fact that Jesus never said anything about it, yet refuse to believe something for the exact same reason.

You are merely picking and choosing what you want to believe.

I trust Jesus' word because His word is consistent in all His word. And If they dont harmonize with Jesus' word, I disregard.
I understand that you are merely ratifying your beliefs, to hell with the truth.

I dont argue about the verses which does not harmonize with Jesus' word.

No, you completely ignore them in hopes that no one else notices your blatant hypocritical dishonesty.
 

Meshak

Active Member
I disagree wholeheartedly. We follow because we love. Love cannot be commanded, only asked.
Sorry, Jesus is the one knows what is love or not. He is the teacher and He says to love your enemy and you reject His commands. You dont seem to love Jesus.
Yes, it is -- and its ugly business. Which is why God's grace is so necessary.
God's grace is not license to sin.
What's self-centered about self-care? What's self-centered about protecting your friends and family? Isn't that part of what Jesus asks us to do: Take care of our loved ones?
Because you reason Jesus' command by your own desires. This is self-centered, not Jesus' centered.
Right. Yet, Jesus also wants us to take care of those in our charge. And sometimes that means meeting violence with violence. That's why sin is systemic and not individual.
Jesus says His followers are not of this world, He also says let the dead bury their own dead. The military is of this world. Jesus' followers have responsibility to teach people about God's kingdom.
Martyrdom is a choice. Victimization is not. There's a difference. We are called to defend the victimized.
dying for Jesus is not being victim. It is about being faithful to Jesus. It is victory.

blessings.
 

Meshak

Active Member
Ah, so you are admitting to ignoring another point that contradicts your preconceived notion?
Please dont try to put the in my mouth.
No, we wouldn't.
Simply because Jesus never said anything at all about the military.
Ok, if you cannot see Jesus does not approve of killing anyone, I cannot help you.
You beleive something based on the fact that Jesus never said anything about it, yet refuse to believe something for the exact same reason.
Jesus says to "love your enemy" He did not say kill everyone to protect yourselves. If you want to kill people protect yourself, go ahead. No one can stop you.
You are merely picking and choosing what you want to believe.
I pick to harmonize with Jesus' word of love His way not worldly way. I am Jesus' servants, not USA's servant.
I understand that you are merely ratifying your beliefs, to hell with the truth.
Ok, you have right to reject Jesus. No one is forcing you.
 

Meshak

Active Member
Sojourner and mestemia,
Our discourse is becoming plain bickering. It is not of Jesus. I will ignore both of you.

blessings.
 
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