Christians: I am generalizing to get this off my mind

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not mean any direspect to Christians; and, I this will be a generalization but please don't take this personally. Comments and critiques are always welcomed.

I was talking to my co-worker for a couple of hours. She is very into the Bible. I mean, really really into her Bible. She is also an evangalist but I doesn't consider herself so. She is also about my age, so I am assuming she is still maturing in faith. That aside.

I made a comment about Christianity in general. I said, if I remember, that I really don't like Christianity in how many people in the past have hurt (I didn't say murdered) people in the name of their faith. She says "you basically just told me you don't like my religion" and I tried to say it wasn't meant to be an insult; it wasn't. However, I know if someone said my pagan practices/beliefs and Buddhist beliefs/moral are wrong, I'd be offended because those beliefs no matter the label/s ARE me.

That aside.

I really really do not like Christianity. I am generalizing I really don't like how Christians push their faith on others--it seems more than a personal thing. It goes beyond the individual. It's like there is some underlining teaching somewhere that says "I am right and you are wrong; and I will tell you that upfront because this is my faith." I was never like that. Never have been. Never will be.

Minority faiths I know, like paganism (in my view) are not evangalistic. Many native faiths (I will say) are minority and do not share much about their practices if any to others especially those who by history and today descriminate them even without them knowing it. It's a inner thing. A inner pride and wanting to keep one's heritage alive.

Why can't Christians understand this? Not understand as in knowledge, but really understand that evangalization is not needed in a humble faith. Where does this personality come from? I see it in most Christians I meet and I hate it. I really do. Sometimes I just want to say "I don't want to listen to your beliefs because your beliefs killed many people who were my ancestors, my family. Your belief descrimonate me for the color of my skin, my gender, my rights to matrimony, my rights to be me. Your religion...

How can anyone be in a religion like that? I mean online, I see SDA and JW generalizing talking to me in harsh ways and I know they are very honest about their faith but at the same time I dont think some of them understand the humbleness about evangalization.

Evangalization should not come from the mouth but by the actions. It shouldn't intimidate people. It should invite strangers and even pagans into your homes and sit at your table.

I live with Christians. I eat with Christians. I talk with Christians. I live in a Christian own apartment complex. I am ex-christian. I can't just get up and move to a more diverse town, which I would love. Even to move to a small Christian town where they are not concerned by what you believe but more the hospitality of treating each other as humans!

This is a journal but I really really do want to know what is it about the type of evangalization from Christians in particular that really causes heads to turn.

How can we change this to have a healthy conversation among Christians even those like SDA and JW with strong opinions....how do we tell the Baptist "don't worry, god is not through with us yet" how do we tell the Catholic "don't worry, god is above the sacraments not the sacraments over god".

How do you....

Let me remind readers if you have read this I am generalizing on purpose. This bothers the heck out of me and affects me personally. Please don't take it as if I am attacking you because I dislike your religion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Take your time. I am not really looking for fast answers. I just really want honest ones.

I mean every single Christian I have spoke with in the thirty four years of my life said in one way or another direct or indirectly, they are right and others are wrong.

No other religion from Judaism and Muslim (from Muslims I meet) to Buddhist and, what was the other...native american (in person).... well, anyway. there are more faiths around here, but I dont here that from minority faiths. I just hear that from experience from Christians.

Why?

 

[Mister Emu]

It's like there is some underlining teaching

Exactly! There is. It is part and parcel of our faith the spread it.

However, I know if someone said my pagan practices/beliefs and Buddhist beliefs/moral are wrong, I'd be offended because those beliefs no matter the label/s ARE me.

So then you can empathise with how she feels.

how do we tell the Baptist "don't worry, god is not through with us yet"

That is why they are evangelizing to you, they don't believe God is through with you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Exactly! There is. It is part and parcel of our faith the spread it.


So then you can empathise with how she feels.


That is why they are evangelizing to you, they don't believe God is through with you.

Thank you.

It's like being going in the past and watching from the outside how christians killed all these people and then I think, okay... I understand what you mean, about how she feels given I'd be insulted visa versa. It just bothers me that the faiths I believe there is no underlining thread to evangalize to the point of belittlement. It is through our actions not through our words. Its not "you are right and I am wrong" it's "you see what I do and if you like, I'll show you...up to you"

There are better ways to evangalize. Sometimes I think the pride in faith is masking what evangalizing is... but then in my faith, evangalization means teaching truth to those who wish to hear it not spreading truth to anyone regardless if they want to hear it or not.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean, I can't even share my faith comfortably and openly, cause I keep thinking I would offend others by what I say. Then I think about the Buddha when he talks about compassion and humbleness. Isn't there a balance between sharing your belief in a strong manner and humbleness without ocersteping your boundries and having ego/pride? How do you really confront that balance?

 

[Thana]

If you don't like it, just tell them that. Christians are people, you know, so just talk to them like they're people and they should respond.

Also I hate to point it out except you keep talking about humility and I have to say your post is anything but. I understand it's a rant, but still...

 

[Mister Emu]

It's like being going in the past and watching from the outside how christians killed all these people and then I think, okay... I understand what you mean, about how she feels given I'd be insulted visa versa

If you went into the past you'd also see pagans and Buddhists kill Christians for their faith. Should your friend dislike your paganism and buddhism and tell you that because your faith killed her ancestors? Or is it better to recognize that the past is the past and that we are all together in the mess of humanity?

I mean, I can't even share my faith comfortably and openly, cause I keep thinking I would offend others by what I say.

I'm not saying it wouldn't, but why should it offend anyone? Why does it offend you?

 

[Sunstone]

Carlita, you might want to Google "The Great Commission".

That being said, I think that most of us -- regardless of our beliefs or disbeliefs -- would be happier if we learned to wear them lightly, rather than identify ourselves with them. Just a thought.

 

[Corthos]

I think the underlying reasons may have some variation from denomination to denomination, but I feel one motivation might be based simply out of fear of hell. If you LITERALLY thought that your friends, family, and... well... any person would go to hell and suffer an eternal fate simply because they didn't become saved, you might be a over zealous as well. To them, Christianity isn't just a religion, a philosophy, or a way of life. Christianity will SAVE you from eternal torment.

I realize not all Christians subscribe to this train of thought, but it's been my experience that it is a prevalent concept of the faith in a broad sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you went into the past you'd also see pagans and Buddhists kill Christians for their faith. Should your friend dislike your paganism and buddhism and tell you that because your faith killed her ancestors

I was thinking of that too. Then I thought that here where I live, I don't know Buddhist that specially want to evangalize to convert you. The few pagans I meet have more of an "open" feel to them. So, when I think about the history of the killing between the schools of Buddhism and my gosh, the killings of paganism, I don't see the people as a reflection of their past.

I also believe that we are a reflection from our past. So, if my great great grandfather was a murderer and that is his personality, we may say, then somewhere down the line, his karma affected us today. So, when I talk with Christians I see it more bluntly than I do other non-abrahamic faiths. They don't give me a since of "I'm talking with someone who murdered someone else" because their actions and aura speaks for the evolution of their past to their present day maturity.

In Christianity, I don't see that much evolution in evangalistic thought. The biggest difference I see is we don't kill people anymore (that we know of) here in America. What I do see is belittling people's being by who they are, what gender they are, and who they love, and so on and so forth. It's not just that, it's Christians are making people loose thier businesses because they don't agree with the manager's products. Catholics here do go door to door.. but they only go to Christians doors. They ask "are you Catholic?" If yes, then they smile. If no, they (honest and positive) try to get you to go to their Church.

I honestly don't believe online is a different world than in person. What I see online is like a summary of what I experience on a daily basis. The difference is, I can voice my opinions online in a respectful way.

In person:

I'm not saying it wouldn't, but why should it offend anyone? Why does it offend you?

My co-worker (of many people in my complex) have this mentality that if they are around a specific type of sin or even sinner they feel it harms their spiritual well-being. Granted that makes sense from their belief and point of view, from mine, it is an offense to say my beliefs are runing our relationship. That's like my spiting in my co-workers face (metaphor) and not being her friend because she is Christian. The belief offends me. She doesn't.

To other people it's the other way around. I can offend her and she may give me the cold shoulder for awhile. If I offend her belief, that's the end of a good friendship.

People I live with here are over seventy years old. Their mindset is less open than my co-worker who is thirty six. Their preacher literally did a sermon of the Catholic Church, bashing Catholics when he found out I was Catholic the day I was invited by a resident to go to his baptist church. I was shocked. If I could have drived, I would have walked out right then and there.

People shoved bible's in my face. People put notes on my door telling me Why havent I gone to church. Other co-workers telling me why haven't I gone to confession since I havent gone to Mass in almost a year. Things like that.

That's why it offends me. It's not really the gun that offends me. I hate guns but it does nothing if I don't touch it. When someone uses it for harm even if it's not directly pointed to me, then I have a problem. When used appropriately (say shooting a target) then I'm fine. When shooting a person, that's a different story.

I live in a small world. When I do get out and explore and find people who have the same mindset, I sometimes think its not just my town, and it's not just the people, it's something about the belief that some how makes them evangalize the way they do.

Here's another thing: When I was in the Church, I never got that evangalistic feeling. Was I wrong? Should I have had that need to tell people they should be worshiping my god? Things like that .. the mess out of me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, you might want to Google "The Great Commission".

That being said, I think that most of us -- regardless of our beliefs or disbeliefs -- would be happier if we learned to wear them lightly, rather than identify ourselves with them. Just a thought.

Learned by trial and error. I'll have a look see. Thank you.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the underlying reasons may have some variation from denomination to denomination, but I feel one motivation might be based simply out of fear of hell. If you LITERALLY thought that your friends, family, and... well... any person would go to hell and suffer an eternal fate simply because they didn't become saved, you might be a over zealous as well. To them, Christianity isn't just a religion, a philosophy, or a way of life. Christianity will SAVE you from eternal torment.

I realize not all Christians subscribe to this train of thought, but it's been my experience that it is a prevalent concept of the faith in a broad sense.

True. I mean, my co-worker doesn't scream it in my face like some I know. What's interesting is I never known a Catholic to evangalize like JW do. Yet, we have one Catholic in our building that was once protestant (she was the one introduced me to the Church; so, I know her well) and became Catholic. So the fundemental side sliped in with her Catholic side. Most Catholics I meet aren't bluntly evangalistic. It's more suddle like if you don't join the Church they will keep giving your rosaries, pamplets, knock n your door once a year, etc (true story till this day) until you come back.

I just really don't know. It's not like other faiths are perfect. I just haven't personally met any other faiths that have this much of an influence on people where I live.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Carlita, you might want to Google "The Great Commission".

That being said, I think that most of us -- regardless of our beliefs or disbeliefs -- would be happier if we learned to wear them lightly, rather than identify ourselves with them. Just a thought.

Do you think the people who go to "make disciples of all people" are taking it a little overboard?

 

[Sunstone]

Do you think the people who go to "make disciples of all people" are taking it a little overboard?

Yup. I think, regardless of how well-intentioned they can be, they are misguided. But then, I'm not a Christian.

 

[Corthos]

People shoved bible's in my face. People put notes on my door telling me Why havent I gone to church. Other co-workers telling me why haven't I gone to confession since I havent gone to Mass in almost a year. Things like that.

This really reminds me of an experience I had at a church in a little mesa-top town at the Hopi Nation. I went to church with my friend and his family, and he didn't tell me, but there was a dress code. Everyone's dressed to the nines, and here I am wearing a t-shirt and jeans. I had about 12 people trying to save me when the church service was over... Literally shoving bibles in m face and trying to convert me to a religion I was already in. XD

Aside from that ordeal, I freaking love the Navajo and Hopi Nations. I'd love to go back some day. =)

 

[godnotgod]

Hi, Carlita.

I believe there are several factors to the Christian psychological profile, which, when studied in a more objective manner, can help you to understand and deal with it more easily.

I was raised in a Catholic family and attended Catholic school until the 9th grade. I became exposed to Eastern thought via my older brother, who had a tour of duty in the Navy in Japan, and who practiced yoga. At one point,I decided to run away from Christianity, but when you have been indoctrinated to the nth degree, it is an uphill battle to get a handle on it. After studying some of the other world religions, I can now return to Christianity and see it in a different light. In fact, some its roots are from the East, and some from the pagan world; at least that is what some of my own research seems to have revealed. Most Christians would disagree, most likely.

The author and spiritualist, Alan Watts, once made the comment about Christians that they are 'like men huddled in the dark, shouting to lend comfort to one another'.

...and a Hindu client of mine once commented that: 'Christians are like little children, so we should forgive them', LOL, in spite of the fact that her Christian 'friends' all told her that she 'was going to the hell!' because she was a Hindu.

Well anyway, as regards their aggressive evangelism and proselytizing, modern Essenes have claimed that, in ancient times, the Essene teachings were structured in 3 circles (as I recall), with the initiates on the outer perimeter, and the elders in the inner circle, who held the keys to the mysteries. The initiates did not; they were only familiar with doctrine. Some of the members of this outer circle broke with the Essene community at one point and took with them only an evangelistic view of the teaching, without a true mystical vision. IOW, their impetus was conversion. It was this handful of initiates who became the first Christians. Theirs was a superficial teaching which did not include the deeper mysteries of the elders. This is admittedly a second-hand account from memory from what I had read from an Essene account, the source of which escapes me at the moment, so take with a grain of salt, OK?

Then we have the evangelist and charlatan, St. Paul and the Roman authorities, who went after the Nazarenes (an Essene sect) hell bent for leather, and destroyed most of their teachings, which were of a Jewish mystical origin. These Nazarenes (led by Yeshua) did not believe in the Virgin Birth, bodily resurrection, nor blood sacrifice. Theirs was difficult inner spiritual work which did not have mass appeal, and Constantine in Rome and Paul wanted a religion which was appealing to the masses. All one need do was to accept 'Jesus' as one's Lord and Saviour, and you were saved. You did'nt have to KNOW anything...just believe. This was most likely appealing to Constantine from a political viewpoint, as control of an obedient and docile populace would have been very desirable. So it appears that what Paul did was to simply overwrite the authentic mystical teachings of Yeshua with those of the pagan god Mithra, which DID include blood sacrifice, a virgin birth, and bodily resurrection. The core difference between Yeshua's teaching and those of Paul, is that Yeshua's teachings were breath-based, while Paul's were blood-based, in terms of the life-force, the former of Eastern origin, the latter of pagan origin. In one fell swoop, Paul synthesized a new religion from 3 elements: Jewish history as backdrop to lend credibility and authenticity to the story; the notion of the Logos, a divine teacher, descending from heaven to teach man, taken from the Gnostics; and the notion of a dying and resurrected god-man, taken from the mystery religions, such as Mithraism, and possibly some others. All of this revolved around conversion, and so, evangelism.

Another aspect of the Christian profile comes from psychology, known as The Five Egotistical States, particularly the one known as:

1. APPARENT LOVE OF OTHERS BY PROJECTION OF THE EGO

This is idolatrous love, in which the ego is projected onto another
being. The pretention to divinity as 'distinct' has left my organism and is now
fixed onto the organism of the other. The affective situation resembles that
above, with the difference that the other has taken my place in my scale of
values. I desire the existence of the other-idol, and am against everything that
is opposed to them. I no longer love my own organism except in so far as it is
the faithful servant of the idol; apart from that I have no further sentiments
towards my organism, I am indifferent to it, and, if necessary, I can give my
life for the safety of my idol (I can sacrifice my organism to my Ego fixed on
the idol; like Empedocles throwing himself down the crater of Etna in order
to immortalise his Ego). As for the rest of the world, I hate it if it is hostile to
my idol; if it is not hostile and if my contemplation of the idol fills me with
joy (that is to say, with egotistical affirmation), I love indiscriminately all the
rest of the world. If the idolised being rejects me to the point of forbidding
me all possession of my Ego in them, the apparent love can be turned to hate.

from: Zen and the Psychology of Transformation, by Hubert Benoit

I am offering these tidbits as starting points to develop an understanding of the Christian psychological profile. I see this as the key, rather than developing an emotional attitude toward what appears as obnoxious 'in your face' evangelizing and proselytizing.

There is, of course, more to the story, which can be added as we go along.

Comments?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If you don't like it, just tell them that. Christians are people, you know, so just talk to them like they're people and they should respond.

Also I hate to point it out except you keep talking about humility and I have to say your post is anything but. I understand it's a rant, but still...

It's a journal and I know I am generalizing. It's something that's been on my mind awhile. I can't tell all Christians I speak with that I dont like their faith. When they tell me "God bless you" I wouldn't tell a nighty year old woman "oh, I dont believe in God. I'm a pagan." When my co-worker is talking about her abusive family and how the Bible has helped her, I dont say "well, I dont believe in the Bible.. .so..." (Basically dismissing her thoughts because she relates comfort and help through the Bible).

In genuine, straight forward conversation, yes... I tell my co-worker... "I am Buddhist (for lack of better words), yes. I am pagan. Yes. I believe in sacrifice" (I did say this to her). and I breathed and said FINNALLY! I said it.

When I did, she wasn't in her Bible mindset. It was more open differnet conversation. However, I'd never talk about my pagan beliefs. I mean.... she was talking about this one culture past or present I dont know who all came up to the stone henge to watch and worship the sun (as she says) when the sun hit the point on solstice. I said, "that's beautiful" thinking of my rituals to the sun.. .and she says its pagan (meaning it's practices against god). Then I thought... do you understand the context behind the worship or are you looking at content?

She is an analylitical thinker in most subjects. When it comes to religion, she gets defensive real easily.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I think your friend said that because you kinda mixed Christianity with Christians. Some Christians did in the past harshly impose Christianity, not Christianity itself. People are the ones doing the act, not religion, even if religion tells them to, they still have the choice in at least doing it in a good way. We are not sure too if Christianity does push them to do what we don't like or if it was interpreted right to push them to do the act.

Remember also that sometimes there are things we don't need to say. People may not like a specific facial feature in people, for example, but they don't need to say it out loud because it does not serve a purpose or for no good reason.This is not lying as some people claim.

It is also natural that people are different in accepting what they hear. I don't mind being told that someone does not like Islam, as long as it is said in a friendly way without clear bad motivation while you friend apparently does not like it. This means we should study people well and know what to say and not say to them out of considering their feelings.

Um, is your friend single?

 

[godnotgod]

I mean, I can't even share my faith comfortably and openly, cause I keep thinking I would offend others by what I say. Then I think about the Buddha when he talks about compassion and humbleness. Isn't there a balance between sharing your belief in a strong manner and humbleness without ocersteping your boundries and having ego/pride? How do you really confront that balance?

What happens in your consciousness when you are not attached to either...when you stand right in the very middle of the two? Remember, the Buddha stressed avoiding extreme views, the reason he developed his Middle Path teaching.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This really reminds me of an experience I had at a church in a little mesa-top town at the Hopi Nation. I went to church with my friend and his family, and he didn't tell me, but there was a dress code. Everyone's dressed to the nines, and here I am wearing a t-shirt and jeans. I had about 12 people trying to save me when the church service was over... Literally shoving bibles in m face and trying to convert me to a religion I was already in. XD

Aside from that ordeal, I freaking love the Navajo and Hopi Nations. I'd love to go back some day. =)

Gee wow! Yeah. I went to a evangalist church but I dont know what type of church it was because it wasn't your everyday raise-your-hand church. I had a seizure (neurological) and it was a partial/small one so I was aware of my surroundings but I couldnt talk. They held me down and said "get the Holy Spirit from her!"

I didn't have the heart to tell them that the Holy Spirit isn't from me, it's from god.