Christians - How do you ‘watch and pray’ for Christ’s Return

[loverofhumanity]

I doubt very much that you actually understand the concept of "papal infallibility", as well as how little it has ever been used. Maybe actually look it up in Wikipedia, for example.

And how in the world did you conclude that "He [Pope] would have accepted Jesus when He returned but all the popes, since His return have gone their own way instead".

What utterly deplorable rubbish you're posting, but at the least it does reinforce that fact that there's a good reason why I left a church that did much the same to eventually belong to a church that doesn't stoop to that low.

I respect your view. It’s just that I believe strongly that we have been given our own eyes to see and minds to know and should rely on our own investigation of truth instead of blind imitation of what others tell us.

Your views are always most welcome praise or criticism it matters not and I respect your right to have your views and admire you for speaking openly and frankly.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I’d prefer this thread in general debates as it is a topic not confined to only Christians but moderators please feel most welcome to move it if you wish.

Christ said to ‘watch and pray’ for His Return.

My understanding is He said this so that His Second Coming would not be missed.

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not? Or will you rely on scholars, priests ministers and clergy or the pope to inform you?

I think Jesus left a couple of clues. To know the difference between a true Prophet and a false Prophet He said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, that He who testifies that Jesus came in the flesh is of God and also that whatsoever things are of good report to think on these things.

There have been wars and rumours of wars throughout the centuries after Jesus ascension. There was the Crusades, the Inquisition and holy wars so how do you know which wars He was referring to?

And the sun has been darkened many times and so has the moon turned to blood and stars falling has been a common occurrence. So if no man knows the hour then how can one say He has or has not come unless He came quietly like a thief? What does ‘He that has eyes let him see and he that has ears let him hear mean’? Aren’t we all from birth born with eyes and ears?

And if He comes quietly like a thief and not a spectacular light show in the sky how will you know as no one knows what He looks like or has any DNA to prove it is Him?

Could it be a Great Spiritual Being like Christ who will appear but will be misunderstood like the Jews who were expecting an earthly King?

I believe that the signs accompanying His Return have been misread and that He has already come and gone as a thief. You all probably know that I believe Baha’u’llah was Christ returned in the glory of the Father. What do you think? Is it possible that as the Jews misread the signs, that once again they have been misunderstood? Is man capable of making the same mistake twice or is man’s judgement perfect and he couldn’t have possibly missed the Second Coming?

Since human beings are notoriously capable of 'seeing signs' in virtually anything in order to back up their preconceived notions, it seems to me that any 'savior' that indicates you'll know him/her by 'the signs' is either extremely naive concerning people's ability to read and agree upon 'signs' or intentionally wanted to cause as much confusion and conflict as possible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Since human beings are notoriously capable of 'seeing signs' in virtually anything in order to back up their preconceived notions, it seems to me that any 'savior' that indicates you'll know him/her by 'the signs' is either extremely naive concerning people's ability to read and agree upon 'signs' or intentionally wanted to cause as much confusion and conflict as possible.

I believe. the majority of people can see the sun in the sky without any need for signs or proofs. So too the Suns of Truth. Billions of people clearly see the Sun of Truth in Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna and so in because Their Light shines brightly like the physical sun. But if our vision, physical or spiritual is impaired then no matter how brightly these Suns shine their light it will not be apparent to us.

 

[CG Didymus]

It’s just that I believe strongly that we have been given our own eyes to see and minds to know and should rely on our own investigation of truth instead of blind imitation of what others tell us.

And do you investigate everything the Universal House of Justice and your National House of Justice says? Or do you trust that they know best and are doing the right things to promote the Baha'i Faith? Thus subordinating your own ideas of what might be best to follow and do what they tell you?

Since human beings are notoriously capable of 'seeing signs' in virtually anything in order to back up their preconceived notions, it seems to me that any 'savior' that indicates you'll know him/her by 'the signs' is either extremely naive concerning people's ability to read and agree upon 'signs' or intentionally wanted to cause as much confusion and conflict as possible.

I asked Baha'is before about the "sign" from Isaiah that says a boy will be born from a virgin. I don't think Baha'i challenge it, but there are a few problems... the Hebrew word doesn't necessarily mean the girl was a "virgin" and gave birth to a son without having had sex with a man. Next, the context has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with a sign for the King of Judah at the time. Then, in the stories about Jesus' birth, we have a star that moves and leads the wise men to Bethlehem. I would be greatly surprised if Baha'is take the story about the star literal, yet... they believe in the "virgin" birth?

I believe. the majority of people can see the sun in the sky without any need for signs or proofs. So too the Suns of Truth. Billions of people clearly see the Sun of Truth in Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna and so in because Their Light shines brightly like the physical sun. But if our vision, physical or spiritual is impaired then no matter how brightly these Suns shine their light it will not be apparent to us.

And how many "Christs" turn out to be fakes? But still, lots of people saw the "Sun of Truth" in them. How many religions turn out to be based on myths, yet had prophets, god/men and gods? Even Baha'is say Jesus didn't do all the things that his followers said he did. So his "light" isn't as shiny as his followers think it is, especially the ones that believe Jesus to be God himself. So there's a lot of false stuff in Christianity and probably most all religions. So what "Sun" is shining so brightly in Jesus that we plainly see it? Don't we have to clear out of the way the myths, the legends, and the embellishments? Then what is left? Ah yes, his teachings... which we get second or third hand? And we can see his Truth as plain as day?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I believe. the majority of people can see the sun in the sky without any need for signs or proofs. So too the Suns of Truth. Billions of people clearly see the Sun of Truth in Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, Krishna and so in because Their Light shines brightly like the physical sun. But if our vision, physical or spiritual is impaired then no matter how brightly these Suns shine their light it will not be apparent to us.

Yet you wrote: I believe that the signs accompanying His Return have been misread.

So apparently the majority of people have impaired 'physical or spiritual vision', because SOMEHOW they managed to misread the sun in the sky. And if there are NO NEED FOR SIGNS, what 'signs accompanying His return' are you talking about?

It sounds as if you're not quite sure what your talking about.

 

[CG Didymus]

When justice is lacking, however, the people challenge, dispute, and deny the obvious.

So you are saying that the Umayyads that started in 661AD and lasted about 100 years. Then the Abbasids went from about 750-1258AD. So how is the Bible "accurately" telling us that each lasted 1260 lunar years? The Bible tells us nothing. The Baha'is tell us how Baha'is interpret these beasts and dragons last 1260 years even though, in reality, they didn't?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And do you investigate everything the Universal House of Justice and your National House of Justice says? Or do you trust that they know best and are doing the right things to promote the Baha'i Faith? Thus subordinating your own ideas of what might be best to follow and do what they tell you?

I asked Baha'is before about the "sign" from Isaiah that says a boy will be born from a virgin. I don't think Baha'i challenge it, but there are a few problems... the Hebrew word doesn't necessarily mean the girl was a "virgin" and gave birth to a son without having had sex with a man. Next, the context has nothing to do with Jesus and everything to do with a sign for the King of Judah at the time. Then, in the stories about Jesus' birth, we have a star that moves and leads the wise men to Bethlehem. I would be greatly surprised if Baha'is take the story about the star literal, yet... they believe in the "virgin" birth?

And how many "Christs" turn out to be fakes? But still, lots of people saw the "Sun of Truth" in them. How many religions turn out to be based on myths, yet had prophets, god/men and gods? Even Baha'is say Jesus didn't do all the things that his followers said he did. So his "light" isn't as shiny as his followers think it is, especially the ones that believe Jesus to be God himself. So there's a lot of false stuff in Christianity and probably most all religions. So what "Sun" is shining so brightly in Jesus that we plainly see it? Don't we have to clear out of the way the myths, the legends, and the embellishments? Then what is left? Ah yes, his teachings... which we get second or third hand? And we can see his Truth as plain as day?

Of course I trust fully in the decisions of the Universal House of Justice because it has been given conferred infallibility by a Manifestation of God in writing unlike other claims of infallibility which are self assumed without any authority from the Manifestation.

In speaking about the Suns of Truth I am referring only to the Manifestations Themselves and Their revealed Word not the doctrines, dogmas, interpretations, traditions and superstitions added at a later date by Their followers.

So love thy neighbour stands as strong as it did 2,000 years ago and this Word shines brightly today and is needed in the world more than ever especially between the different races, religions and nations. Love one another is another brilliant light emanating from Jesus which if it alone were to be practised universally, all wars and poverty would disappear overnight. So high did Jesus set the bar over 2,000 years ago that today we still haven’t advanced to that level yet.

The majority of the earths inhabitants follows one of These Suns of Truth in Buddha, Krishna, Christ, Muhammad or Moses and a few - Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah. These are the Ones whom billions of people worldwide model their daily lives upon.

Charlatans and frauds don’t command the respect and devotion of billions of people. worldwide that the Manifestations of God do and neither is their influence on civilisation anywhere near as comparable.

 

[InChrist]

From my study of the scriptures, I see that Jesus will come “as a thief in the night “ to remove His bride, the church composed of all born again believers. (1 Thess. 5:2), which will then begin “the Day of the Lord” , God’s judgement upon the earth ( 2 Peter 3:10). After this time of tribulation as described in Revelation Christ will visibly return to the earth and every eye will see Him ( Rev. 1:7).

 

[Faithofchristian]

I’d prefer this thread in general debates as it is a topic not confined to only Christians but moderators please feel most welcome to move it if you wish.

Christ said to ‘watch and pray’ for His Return.

My understanding is He said this so that His Second Coming would not be missed.

How will you know from your own watching and praying whether He has returned or not? Or will you rely on scholars, priests ministers and clergy or the pope to inform you?

I think Jesus left a couple of clues. To know the difference between a true Prophet and a false Prophet He said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit, that He who testifies that Jesus came in the flesh is of God and also that whatsoever things are of good report to think on these things.

There have been wars and rumours of wars throughout the centuries after Jesus ascension. There was the Crusades, the Inquisition and holy wars so how do you know which wars He was referring to?

And the sun has been darkened many times and so has the moon turned to blood and stars falling has been a common occurrence. So if no man knows the hour then how can one say He has or has not come unless He came quietly like a thief? What does ‘He that has eyes let him see and he that has ears let him hear mean’? Aren’t we all from birth born with eyes and ears?

And if He comes quietly like a thief and not a spectacular light show in the sky how will you know as no one knows what He looks like or has any DNA to prove it is Him?

Could it be a Great Spiritual Being like Christ who will appear but will be misunderstood like the Jews who were expecting an earthly King?

I believe that the signs accompanying His Return have been misread and that He has already come and gone as a thief. You all probably know that I believe Baha’u’llah was Christ returned in the glory of the Father. What do you think? Is it possible that as the Jews misread the signs, that once again they have been misunderstood? Is man capable of making the same mistake twice or is man’s judgement perfect and he couldn’t have possibly missed the Second Coming?

That's all so easy to answer, had you understanding what the book of Revelation has to say about Jesus Christ second coming...
According to the book of Revelation..there's two ways of knowing the true return of Jesus Christ..

The disciple Paul out lined this in the book of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

50--"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"

Now if you notice what Disciple Paul has written here..that at the second coming of Christ Jesus..we all shall be changed

This meaning.at the second coming of Christ Jesus we all shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to the Spirit.Ok

Now when Jesus Christ returns and your still of flesh and blood... Then that who is claiming to be Jesus Christ..is not the real Jesus Christ but the AntiChrist claiming to be the real Jesus Christ...

Therefore if you reach down and feel that your still of flesh and blood..then that one is masquerading by deception to be the real Jesus Christ, but is an imposter.

This how you will know the real Jesus Christ and the Imposter who comes claiming to be the real Jesus Christ

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's all so easy to answer, had you understanding what the book of Revelation has to say about Jesus Christ second coming...
According to the book of Revelation..there's two ways of knowing the true return of Jesus Christ..

Two ways may be the right way and the wrong way.

So it is not so easy really, it could be that @loverofhumanity has found the answer and it may be that you have not got it correct.

As that how it has happened in the past, there is no reason to see that in this age is will be any different

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

From my study of the scriptures, I see that Jesus will come “as a thief in the night “ to remove His bride, the church composed of all born again believers. (1 Thess. 5:2), which will then begin “the Day of the Lord” , God’s judgement upon the earth ( 2 Peter 3:10). After this time of tribulation as described in Revelation Christ will visibly return to the earth and every eye will see Him ( Rev. 1:7).

So Christ is not a good thief A thief that everybody sees

Also let's hope no one is asleep and it is night time. Wouldn't want those material peepers to miss out on such a special display of might and power.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

Two ways may be the right way and the wrong way.

So it is not so easy really, it could be that @loverofhumanity has found the answer and it may be that you have not got it correct.

As that how it has happened in the past, there is no reason to see that in this age is will be any different

Regards Tony

Not talking about our day and age..but yet still future from us..

The second coming of Christ Jesus,, We all shall be changed from this flesh and blood to that of the Spirit...

This is everyone who is a live upon the whole earth..

But if your still of flesh and blood at the second coming of Christ Jesus,, Then that is not the real Jesus Christ..but the AntiChrist (Satan) masquerading by deception to deceive the whole world into believing that he is the real Christ Jesus.
But he is an imposter.

 

[wizanda]

Also let's hope no one is asleep and it is night time.

Zechariah 14:7 It will be a unique day which is known to Yahavah; not day, and not night; but it will come to pass, that at evening time there will be light.

In our opinion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's all so easy to answer, had you understanding what the book of Revelation has to say about Jesus Christ second coming...
According to the book of Revelation..there's two ways of knowing the true return of Jesus Christ..

The disciple Paul out lined this in the book of 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.

50--"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory"

Now if you notice what Disciple Paul has written here..that at the second coming of Christ Jesus..we all shall be changed

This meaning.at the second coming of Christ Jesus we all shall be changed from this body of flesh and blood to the Spirit.Ok

Now when Jesus Christ returns and your still of flesh and blood... Then that who is claiming to be Jesus Christ..is not the real Jesus Christ but the AntiChrist claiming to be the real Jesus Christ...

Therefore if you reach down and feel that your still of flesh and blood..then that one is masquerading by deception to be the real Jesus Christ, but is an imposter.

This how you will know the real Jesus Christ and the Imposter who comes claiming to be the real Jesus Christ

I used to reach out and all I saw was a material form and blood and flesh corruptible, but now after His coming I see spirit. I was once corruptible but have put on the garment of immortality and become incorruptible. Indeed He has come as a thief but few have eyes to see.

 

[wizanda]

We all shall be changed from this flesh and blood to that of the Spirit...

Though I agree this shall happen later at the Second Death, first we have a time before it, where the Nations learn about Law, as currently people are all in defilement of the Torah, and thus none are worthy other than the Elect - which have been removed from here (Revelation 6:9-11).

We meet Christ in the Clouds (Internet) before it, where we gain free eye salve, so that we might see, and understand the scriptures (Revelation 3:18).

Revelation 3:3 is Christ coming as a Thief, discussing with the religions (Revelation 2-3) before Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-16).

Thus in Matthew 25:1-13 at the Midnight Hour where the Bridegroom comes to meet the Bride; where she then mistreats him again, do you think this shows people have oil in their lamp?

Is it because people can't see as they reject the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28), where they are blinded by its utterances (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29)?

Come out of it, and see!!
(Revelation 18:1-4).

In my opinion.

 

[wizanda]

I was once corruptible but have put on the garment of immortality and become incorruptible.

Revelation 16:15-16 “Behold, I come like a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his clothes, so that he doesn’t walk naked, and they see his shame.” (16) He gathered them together into the place which is called in Hebrew, Megiddo.

Revelation 3:17-18 Because you say, ‘I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;’ and don’t know that you are the wretched one, miserable, poor, blind, and naked; (18) I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, that you may become rich; and white garments, that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes, that you may see.

In the past there were immortals, and mortals; to be an immortal we had to do exceedingly great noble deeds.

We're down near Hell, no one is incorruptible, every corporation has to be corrupt by the very nature of its size; anything large in this world gets things growing on it, which slowly break down it structure.

In my opinion.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I used to reach out and all I saw was a material form and blood and flesh corruptible, but now after His coming I see spirit. I was once corruptible but have put on the garment of immortality and become incorruptible. Indeed He has come as a thief but few have eyes to see.

What disciple had written..is that when real Jesus Christ comes..we all shall be changed from this flesh and blood body to that of the Spirit..
Therefore if your still of flesh and blood body..that is not the real Jesus Christ, but imposter. Masquerading by deception to deceive people into believing that he is the real Jesus Christ. But he is imposter masquerading by deception to be the real Jesus Christ.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Though I agree this shall happen later at the Second Death, first we have a time before it, where the Nations learn about Law, as currently people are all in defilement of the Torah, and thus none are worthy other than the Elect - which have been removed from here (Revelation 6:9-11).

We meet Christ in the Clouds (Internet) before it, where we gain free eye salve, so that we might see, and understand the scriptures (Revelation 3:18).

Revelation 3:3 is Christ coming as a Thief, discussing with the religions (Revelation 2-3) before Armageddon (Revelation 16:15-16).

Thus in Matthew 25:1-13 at the Midnight Hour where the Bridegroom comes to meet the Bride; where she then mistreats him again, do you think this shows people have oil in their lamp?

Is it because people can't see as they reject the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28), where they are blinded by its utterances (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29)?

Come out of it, and see!!
(Revelation 18:1-4).

In my opinion.

Have you any clue or idea what Revelation 6:9-11 is all about?
Revelation 6:9-11 is about all those who have died and given their life during the tribulation.

Have you any clue or idea what those clouds are. Those clouds are not actually clouds that you are in the sky above..

Those are the saints that are dress in White linen and set upon white horses... that from a far distance they appear as white clouds.
Revelation 19:14---"And the armies which were in heaven followed him
( Jesus Christ). upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, White and clean"

Therefore those clouds are the armies that come with Jesus Christ dress in White linen and white horses...that from a far distance they look like white clouds from a distance.

 

[Brickjectivity]

...Christ said to ‘watch and pray’ for His Return....

There can seem to be an intellectual paradox between praying for Christ's return and praying to become Christ, but if you view them as the same thing and all prayers as one you have no paradox. This seeming paradox results in discussions about how we are to watch and pray for Christ's return.

Jesus in the gospels pointedly says he doesn't teach his disciples everything but will send a 'Holy spirit'. This spirit Paul says causes the Christian to yearn for adoption. He calls this the Abba prayer which all Christian prayers are part of and the Holy Spirit he calls the 'Spirit of adoption'. Romans 8:14 and Galatians 4:6 both mention this.

Jesus is quoted to say "This is how you should pray: Our Father..." These are mere words, however. The teachings of Jesus about this are not necessarily just these specific words, but they are a good thing to speak and to contemplate. I think though that everyone agrees that there is benefit in praying "The Lords prayer." Many people begin communal prayers with this spoken out loud. Since it pronounces a shared experience and yearning it can draw people together.

 

[wizanda]

Have you any clue or idea what Revelation 6:9-11 is all about?
Revelation 6:9-11 is about all those who have died and given their life during the tribulation.

The Great Tribulation happens in Revelation 6:12-17, after the Saints have already been taken during history:

The four horse men in Revelation 6:1-8 are:

1. The white people in the name of their white 'jesus', went forth conquering:
2. They murdered the red skinned people causing bloodshed on the land.
3. The dark skins they gave unbalanced scales to.
   
4. The pale skins they've caused war, and famine to.
5. During that time the Saints were elected.
6. Christ comes back.
7. This world becomes God's.

Have you any clue or idea what those clouds are.

At 15 years old before ever studying the religions the Source of our reality spoke to me on the Clouds, where everything became as One voice - as happened to different people in the Bible.

It said certain things will take place, and the door of Heaven will be opened at the 2nd death; yet none are worthy to stand before the Source of reality down here, we're down near Hell.

Yet when Christ said he comes on the Clouds; we're literally talking on Lightening right now (Luke 17:24).

Those are the saints that are dress in White linen and set upon white horses...

In Revelation 3:17-18 Christ gives the White Garments to all these people naked in faith down here, who think religious labels count as clothing...

We can not on Judgement Day stand before the Source of reality, and say "I follow this book".

John the Baptist in the New Testament was put as being an angel, yet translated as a messenger.

Thus we need to learn to be Saints, stop assuming we know all the answers, and study through Esword debate - where our errors are.

In my opinion.