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Featured Christians. Heaven and hell

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I'm not familiar with biblical language/context. (Clarification) Hearers of the law are more favorable by god than doers of the law?

    If it's the same law of christ, why is he more favorable for what people hear than what people do?

    Isn't there a difference between hear and listen? Many people hear so many different religious teachings but if their heart isn't open to them (it's not in their heart to be of interest), they find no need to listen. Maybe those who listen to the law would be saved but those who hear it are not.

    Hearer of the law in scripture meaning understanding and active listening rather than, say, academic interest or a light read of the bible.
     
  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    This is PARTLY correct. There are TWO hells. The first is the grave where ALL men go at death. The second is the lake of fire where the wicked will be destroyed ( burned up) not tortured forever. This is the second death that is the punishment for sin.
     
  3. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    With the idea of progressive revelation however (with Baha'u'llah being the supposed most recent, I would assume - by your account), who did those who were rewarded before Baha'u'llah need to "recognize?" The prophet/messenger that came before him? And who before that one? The one that came before that? Etc. etc. etc.

    The point being that it would appear the goal posts are always moving. Which is fine, if that's the case, I suppose, but it will sure make (and has made) for a lot of confusion. Without a way to assuredly evidence the updates, there are bound to be people who do not believe in or accept the "latest" revelation. I would have thought someone/something like God intelligent enough to realize this, and therefore make this style of revealing information a pretty bad idea. Like it is or has been. It's genuinely terrible.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Those are good questions.

    Those who were rewarded before Baha'u'llah would have needed to recognize and follow the Messenger of God that came during the religious dispensation (age) in which they were living; so those who lived when Moses appeared and as long as His dispensation lasted would have had to recognize and follow Moses, and those who lived when Jesus appeared and as long as His dispensation lasted would have had to recognize and follow Jesus, so those who lived when Muhammad appeared and as long as His dispensation lasted would have had to recognize and follow Muhammad.

    Here is the caveat: Before Baha'u'llah appeared believers were not taught progressive revelation so they did not know that they were responsible to God to recognize and believe in all the Messengers that came before and after the Messenger that they believe in; so Jews do not believe they are responsible to God to believe in Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and Christians do not believe they are responsible to God to believe in Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    There was an excuse for failing to live up to their responsibility BEFORE Baha'u'llah appeared and taught progressive revelation, but there is no longer an excuse for failing to recognize ALL of God's Messengers. If they know about Baha'u'llah and what He wrote regarding progressive revelation and still reject all the Messengers that came before and after the Messenger they believe in, they are accountable to God. I cannot say what will happen to them or if they will get to heaven anyway, but below is what Baha'u'llah wrote about this in one of His Tablets. In short, He was saying that their superstitious beliefs (regarding their religions being the only way) have kept them back from recognizing all of God's Messengers.

    “Rely upon God, thy God and the Lord of thy fathers. For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness.

    Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

    Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.” Bahá’u’lláh, Tablet of Ahmad

    You are very astute. Yes, as you will have realized by what I said above, the goal posts did move. The problem is that except for the Baha'is, the religious believers either do not realize that the goal posts moved, but even when they are told they do not like it, because they want to remain in their older religions.

    The Method God uses to reveal information is a whole different subject and an extensive one that I have covered that in many, many threads I have started on this forum. In short, the only way that would work for God to reveal information .to humans (in a way that they could understand that information and make use of it) is through Messengers who reveal scriptures that people can read. The problems of the past scriptures such as the Bible have been mitigated greatly in this new age because we have the original writings of Baha'u'llah penned in His own hand, and He also appointed interpreters of those writings in his Will and Testament such that there would be no question about what He meant.

    Of course you are right in saying that there are bound to be people who will not believe in or accept the "latest" revelation from God, and that is an understatement, because most people do not recognize it, and the reason they do not recognize it is because they are mired in the past and unwilling to relinquish their religion, which is usually the religion they were raised in.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes. You inherit "sin" (which is an archery term for "missing the mark") like you "inherit" a genetic disorder. Its not something you ask for or deserve, but a burden to carry from your parents' genetics. The only way to stop it from being passed on to the next generation is to purposely have no children. But first, you have to understand how genetic disorders are passed down from parent to child. If only one parent has the disorder, then there is usually a 50% chance of the children inheriting it....but if both parents have the defect that jumps to 100%. Adam and his wife both carried the defect due to their own actions. Sin was a consequence of their individual disobedience.

    All humanity have inherited this imperfection and we are all suffering the consequences of their actions. (Romans 5:12) Immediately however, God implemented a way to rescue Adam's children....he would send someone to take their place, giving his life instead of them, guaranteeing that death was not permanent......but it would take a considerable amount of time to come to its completion. God is not constrained by time and the human race were not the only ones who needed the lesson. The first rebel was not human.

    Where does it say that children go to heaven?

    There are no children in heaven......there never was, and never will be. The only ones who go to heaven are those chosen by God to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) These are chosen by reason of their continued faith and obedience to God, even to their death.

    The dead (including all the children who have died) "sleep" in their graves, waiting for Jesus to awaken them. (John 5:28-29) That is called "the resurrection" and it means a return to this life for all who "sleep", including the children who will have parents waiting for a happy and tearful reunion. All the sorrow that has been experienced down through history, will not even be a distant memory because God will not allow the horrors of this world to leave scars on our hearts and spoil life in the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

    Isaiah 65:17...
    "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be called to mind,
    Nor will they come up into the heart."


    But all that has transpired will be recorded in God's book of justice, so that no rebel will be able to challenge His rightful Sovereignty ever again. Precedents are now set for all time to come.

    That question is so out of order when you consider that God did not plan any of this. You think he is up there pointing the finger of death at innocent babies because he enjoys it? o_O Exercise of free will has consequences.....some we can anticipate, and some we can't....but they will come regardless.

    The outcome for mankind was a product of disobedience in spite of a warning that death would come as a result. There was no way to prevent what happened because it was an abuse of their free will....something God will never interfere with. They chose death for themselves AND their children. God did not throw his hands up and abandon his first purpose however....he immediately set in motion a way to release Adam's children from the grip of sin and death, by sending a Savior.....but God does not operate in Earth time...he is a timeless Being, not constrained by our counting of time, so he can fulfill his purpose in his own way, in his own time and with the maximum benefit for all.

    Death then becomes a friend rather than an enemy because all sleep peacefully whilst God deals with rebellion among his free willed creatures (both in heaven and on earth) in order to eventually bring about his first purpose.....to have a perfect race of obedient humans to take care of his earthly creation....forever. And never again to have one of his spirit sons break ranks with delusions of grandeur.

    The US is like no other nation on earth.....but you have to live outside of the US to understand how different they really are...:(
     
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  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Jesus wouldn't awaken children if their parents weren't christians?

    If death is the grave, then why is it wrong that innocent babies would die and never be resurrected because of their parents sin?

    Shrugs. I would assume a creator who created everything would not make it to where humans can damn themselves. What is the value of free will to those who don't want to be in an ultimatum by being forced to obey god or not?

    Sadly. Since born and raised here I get frustrated how people talk against the United States. I value militants pride for fighting for their country, the US insofar that even though we have our issues there are many people who still fight for others to survive.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Is that what I said? All the dead are in their graves...both the "righteous and the unrighteous" will be called out of their tombs (John 5:28-29).......there were no Christians before the first century.....so, not just Christians but all the dead are sleeping and will be resurrected. Only the incorrigibly wicked will remain in death....and only God knows who they are.

    "Death" is the wages of sin, (Romans 6:23) so whoever has died has paid the penalty for any sin that they may have committed. (Romans 6:7) Jesus' sacrifice then guarantees them a second chance to get it right in the resurrection. He died so they can live. He died so that those who are still here when the end comes, will never have to die at all.
    He paid our penalty. Can you grasp the meaning of that?

    What an odd question....
    If Jesus said that he was going to raise ALL the dead, then that would include their children. The resurrection is a promise and it will be carried out once the Kingdom has "come" and is ruling mankind. (Matthew 6:9-10)

    Strangely if you live under a democracy, that is exactly what you are forced to do. Try breaking the laws of the land and see if that is not so. If you break the law, you damn yourself. What delusion are you entertaining? That democratic freedom is truly "free"? It can never be without restraints or there is anarchy.....if you prefer that, then all the best to you...:confused: Go march on the Capitol...:shrug:

    Was I talking against the USA or merely making a comment that everyone outside the US understands completely? Your people have a mindset that is foreign to the rest of the western world.....especially with regard to the marriage of politics and religion, and your attitude towards guns and armed conflict.

    You see.....that is exactly what I was talking about. You have to live outside the US to understand how insular you all seem to be in your attitudes towards the use of weapons and carrying out conflicts in countries that are none of the US government's business. How is that "fighting for your country"? How does the US tell others how to govern their people, when they are doing such a lousy job of it themselves? Where do they get the idea that they are somehow the saviors of the world by virtue of their military power.....? Its delusional IMO.

    How do the clergy hope to represent the "Christian" military men and women under their care, if they are at odds with the teachings of Jesus Christ who taught us to 'love our enemies', not kill them.....and especially not if those you are fighting also identify as "Christians"....can you not see the problem?...the complete hypocrisy? (1 John 4:20-21)
    The "Christian" thing to do is to tell them to put down their weapons. Imagine if everyone was invited to a war and no one showed up? :eek:

    The US is 'the world' to a great many of your population, and most have no idea what goes on in the rest of the world, or even how the US is viewed by them. How many could tell you where the rest of the world is even located on a map? :oops:

    You see, from the Bible's perspective, all human rulership is corrupt and needs to be replaced by God, not other equally flawed humans who will never make a better job of it.
    God's "Kingdom" will "come" and his will, "will be done on earth as it is in heaven".....there is no way to avoid what is coming, and military power on earth will stop it. (Isaiah 54:17)
     
  8. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    And my opinion on this matter is that this is all God's fault. Not the fault of the people involved. If you have a leader, and the way in which he leads you has you going astray, and the orders he gives you cause you to fail your missions, then the leader is held accountable, even if you, yourself are also. This is just "logic 101 stuff." Haha.
     
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Inherited sin is not a Bible concept, it is an Augustinian concept that is false.

    They are saved because everyone sins, even children sin, but God distinguishes between those who are accountable/able to judge what it means to trust Him/reject Him.

    Thanks for asking.
     
  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    If a child is raised with christian parent (not indoctrinated in religion), what is his sin before the age of reason?

    Only Christians are accountable. A child knows what's right or wrong by scripture through upbringing and/or environment influences. He only sins when he is taught the criteria of goodness. Many children do not have this. If sins are actions against god, without intent what is his sin?

    (Kind of like judging a person based on killing another in self defense)
     
    #90 Unveiled Artist, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2021
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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  12. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    You say everyone who has died has paid the penalty for sin. But everyone dies. It is not that simple. Physical death is what happens to every human. But spiritual death is the penalty for sin. After the dead are raised from their graves, they will be judged. Those who are found righteous will recieve eternal life as their reward. Those who are not righteous, will be destroyed in the lake of fire. That is the second death or spiritual death. That is the wages of sin.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You are talking about God as if He is a man, but God is not a man. God is not a 'leader.' God is the non-created cause of all existence, the transcendent reality by which all existence is ruled and maintained. God does not give orders, God reveals teachings and laws through His Messengers and people can choose to follow them or not. If they don't and things go wrong, it is their fault. God can never be to 'blame' for anything, because God cannot make mistakes, since God is infallible. This is logic 101 stuff.
     
  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Ah, good. Absolutely no reason to be expected to follow then.

    Evidence sorely lacking.

    Hmmm... contrary to quite a bit I have heard, but it is definitely a good possibility that everyone I have heard from was completely unreliable as a source of information on this point. Unfortunately for your endeavors here, a lot of this contrary information casts serious doubt on ALL such claims made by anyone - most certainly including you and your claims. And you have the EXACT same types of evidence to present as anyone else I have talked to on the subject. In other words - the kind of evidence that just isn't good enough. I get that you may not understand what constitutes good evidence, and I try my best not to hold that against people... but it does get entirely tiresome.

    Also needs a lot more evidence. Take this "Baha'u'llah" character. None of the sayings or quotes from this person that I have ever read have ever compelled me in any way to believe what was being said, or look more into it. From what I have read, the man barely said anything of substance at all. A lot of specious preaching to the choir. Assumptions that people believe, and will therefore take his words seriously from the get-go. That isn't going to cut it for someone like me. Not by a long shot. And when I say that, I am not being hyperbolic or exaggerating. What I am saying is that what I have read comes NOWHERE NEAR to convincing me of anything. Seriously. None of it, and nowhere near closer to "believing." Not even a little bit.

    This is a dangerous assertion to be believing, because it means that, no matter what happens, no matter what this "God" character does, you can never have any hope of appealing to it for any change in circumstances. You simply MUST accept any and all circumstances you or your loved ones, or the entire world is put into by God's hand. If God does it, it's the correct course of action, right? It's what must be done? I can't accept that. I simply refuse. It will never make sense, and isn't something I would ever accept given my principles and the understanding I have of this universe/realm we find ourselves within.

    Terrible... just terrible.
     
  15. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    That scripture speaks of people who hear what the law says, but don’t do it and people who may not have heard anyone telling what the law says but still do what the law says. For example, there could be one person who has heard “don’t murder” and murders anyway and person who has never heard of the law, but still thinks murder is wrong and don’t do so. That person who understands murder is wrong and doesn’t do so, can be counted righteous in this case. Person who hears the law, but still doesn’t obey it, is not righteous. And for righteous there is eternal life promised.

    But, hear can have two meanings in the Bible, the other is that person receives sounds (listens) and other is that the person receives and understands correctly what was said and it makes change in persons behavior. In this case by the context, it is about listening, not necessary about understanding and receiving the message.
     
  16. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Hi trailblazer. We have not always agreed on everything but I think you are right on this. God's teachings and laws are for man's good. God does not want people to have problems but when we do not follow what is good for us, bad things happen. God is infallible but humans are not. We make our own problems by not following what is good and right for us.
     
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  17. Jacques de Molay

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    I don't believe we all "deserve" Hell. heck, if it was up to me, everyone I like would get to go to Heaven!

    In that regard, aren't you glad it's NOT up to me??? Because my choices would be mostly subjective (as would anyone's), and would ensure that a lot of good people went to Hell just because I don't know them! (And in this case, 'good" would also be a subjective term...So there's that!)

    However, it doesn't matter what I believe. The fact of the matter is that we are ALL sinners, and all fall short of the Glory of God. Through mercy (not getting what we deserve - Condemnation) and Grace (getting what we don't deserve - Salvation) from Christ's sacrifice, we can ALL be saved.

    Regarding "kids"...Children are innocent. Children who die go to Heaven. End of story.
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Perhaps God could have created a world without evil that did not interfere with man’s free will, IF God had chosen not to give man free will in the first place, but now that horse has already bolted from the barn, because man does have free will so man can choose to do evil things. The only way that God could prevent that would be to override human free will by stopping humans from doing evil things whenever they were about to do them… Why should God do that, when man can instead prevent themselves from doing evil things, by exercising their free will and choosing to do good things?

    By the way, God did create a world where there is no evil; it is called the spiritual world, often referred to as heaven. There will be no more evil in heaven because there will be no evil souls in heaven to commit evil.

    Besides, there is nothing in the spiritual world that could cause evil people to commit evil. Since it is an immaterial world, there is no need for money and there is no sex, and one cannot murder someone who is already dead, so what’s left? There is nothing for evil people to do in heaven, nothing there that they would want, and that is why evil souls go to the ‘other place.’
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    How does innocence lead one to heaven if we have inherited sin from our first parents (according to some christian theological points of views)?

    Why can't adults be innocent like children?

    Why do we see ourselves with an inherited sin mentality where only children and those who medically can't discern right for wrong has a get out of jail free card but the rest of us is doomed to "hell" (interpreted in context)?
     
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Welcome newbie... :)

    I agree that we are all sinners who fall short of the Glory of God, and I agree that we all can be saved through Christ's sacrifice, but as a Baha'i, I have a different way of understanding what it means to be saved and how we come to be saved I also have a different way of understanding the significance of Christ's sacrifice.

    29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
     
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