Christians: Forgive and forget

[Rolling_Stone]

Same faith debate.

Just a question.

 

[idea]

I thought we were suppsed to learn from our mistakes... how can we learn and be humble if we just forget?

God told Israel not to forget the horrors they experienced in Egypt.
Deut 15:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.

Ezek. 16:61 thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed
Ezek. 36:31 shall ye remember your own evil ways

Perhaps it is for the sinner to remember their own sins, and not for anyone else to remember them?

 

[Aqualung]

I thought we were suppsed to learn from our mistakes... how can we learn and be humble if we just forget?

WE are supposed to learn from our mistakes. Do you really think that learning how to treat some people (namely, those that have sinned against you) differently than those people whom you like (those who haven't sinned against you) is really something we should be learning, though?

God told Israel not to forget the horrors they experienced in Egypt.
Deut 15:15 And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in the land of Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee: therefore I command thee this thing to day.

Why did he caution them to remmeber that, though? I think the emphasis was on God redeeming them, NOT the fact that certain specific Egyptians were cruel to them.

Ezek. 16:61 thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed
Ezek. 36:31 shall ye remember your own evil ways

That's about me, not about others. Recognition of sin is the first step to repentence, but I don't repent for other people (Christ is the only one who took others' sins on himself), so why should I remember others' sins and be ashamed?

 

[tomspug]

"Trust" is reliant on memory. If you, say, cheat on your wife. She won't ever forget, even if she forgives you. She can't MAKE that trust come back by trying to forget. It doesn't work that way. All she can do is love, which is to treat her husband AS IF he didn't cheat on her. But he can never get her trust back. It just doesn't work that way.

That's the tragedy of sin.

 

[Aqualung]

"Trust" is reliant on memory. If you, say, cheat on your wife. She won't ever forget, even if she forgives you. She can't MAKE that trust come back by trying to forget. It doesn't work that way. All she can do is love, which is to treat her husband AS IF he didn't cheat on her. But he can never get her trust back. It just doesn't work that way.

That's the tragedy of sin.

But if the man cheats and sincerely repents, God forgets. Sin is definitely a tragedy, and sin is hard to forget. But shouldn't we strive to be like God? Be ye perfect, even as Christ is perfect?

 

[idea]

WE are supposed to learn from our mistakes.

I think it would be less painful to learn from other people's mistakes

Do you really think that learning how to treat some people (namely, those that have sinned against you) differently than those people whom you like (those who haven't sinned against you) is really something we should be learning, though?


Why did he caution them to remmeber that, though? I think the emphasis was on God redeeming them, NOT the fact that certain specific Egyptians were cruel to them.


That's about me, not about others. Recognition of sin is the first step to repentence, but I don't repent for other people (Christ is the only one who took others' sins on himself), so why should I remember others' sins and be ashamed?

There is a difference between remembering and learning from someone and holding resentment towards them.

Do you think you can remember, learn from it, AND let go of all resentment towards the subject you learned from?

I have not had to really forgive anyone for anything, because I am not the type of person who blames others for things. beam/mote thing, I am more aware of my shorcoming than theirs.

Do you think it is better to blame yourself or others for things?

 

[tomspug]

But if the man cheats and sincerely repents, God forgets. Sin is definitely a tragedy, and sin is hard to forget. But shouldn't we strive to be like God? Be ye perfect, even as Christ is perfect?

Like I said, the wife does her best to LOVE her husband, but she can't control her memory, and neither can she control whom she trusts.

 

[Aqualung]

There is a difference between remembering and learning from someone and holding resentment towards them.

And yet, God doesn't make that distinction. he doesn't say, "I will resent you for them no more." He specifically says, "I will remember them no more".

Do you think it is better to blame yourself or others for things?

It depends whose fault it is, but fogiveness will lead me to stop placing blame on the person and let it go.

 

[Aqualung]

Like I said, the wife does her best to LOVE her husband, but she can't control her memory, and neither can she control whom she trusts.

So you tihnk we are destined always, by nature, to fall short of the idea Christ put forth to us? Does this mean we don't have to try?

 

[DallasApple]

But some things you can not forget..unless you have electro shock or a lobotamy..

In fact some things indeed you should NOT forget..

Why do you think we have prisons?..

Love

Dallas

 

[tomspug]

So you tihnk we are destined always, by nature, to fall short of the idea Christ put forth to us? Does this mean we don't have to try?

I really don't understand your question. We should TRY to erase our memories? God didn't design us that way. We can control our choices 'in the moment', but we can't change reality. God is the one that 'makes all things new' and that is not within our own power. And in regards to your "falling short" question, have you READ the Bible?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

 

[DallasApple]

And yet, God doesn't make that distinction. he doesn't say, "I will resent you for them no more." He specifically says, "I will remember them no more".



It depends whose fault it is, but fogiveness will lead me to stop placing blame on the person and let it go.

We are not God..Are you tellign me if someone murders your child you will "forget" they did that?...What hang out with them after you forgive them?..Maybe let them baby sit your other children?..If not ...why...if you truly have "forgotten" it shoudl be as if it never happenned..

Just like God...Right?

Love

Dallas

 

[Aqualung]

God is the one that 'makes all things new' and that is not within our own power.

Maybe if we pray about it we will be imbued with God-like powers to forgive AND forget.

And in regards to your "falling short" question, have you READ the Bible?

Yes, it's full of examples of people falling short. But it's also full of commandments that we not fall short.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect.

One is the current state of things. But as the other says, we shouldn't just accept the current state of things as unchangeable. We need to strive for more, and not just be content to continually fall short.

 

[tomspug]

Maybe if we pray about it we will be imbued with God-like powers to forgive AND forget.


Yes, it's full of examples of people falling short. But it's also full of commandments that we not fall short.


Be ye perfect, even as I am perfect.

One is the current state of things. But as the other says, we shouldn't just accept the current state of things as unchangeable. We need to strive for more, and not just be content to continually fall short.

You need to read Romans. It's all about how people can get obsessed with trying to be 'like God' rather than actually 'following God'. It's important to understand and accept the limitations of our human, sinful nature so that we can turn to God and be strong when we cannot. I'm sorry, but it is impossible to 'miraculously' forget things. I don't know how you think this is possible or how it is biblical. Maybe I could ask God to 'miraculously' turn me into a superhero so I can better serve people with the ability to fly and see through walls.

The reason we can't forget things is 1) the sin of others is not our responsibility and 2) if we forgot, we could not forgive. Why would Jesus command us to forgive 'seventy times seven' times if we could forget the wrongdoing after one mere act of forgiveness. Instead of forgetting, we must CONSTANTLY FORGIVE, which is what God does.

Besides, why do we need to forget anyway? If we are able to love someone enough to treat them as if they had never sinned, what's the difference?

 

[DallasApple]

Maybe if we pray about it we will be imbued with God-like powers to forgive AND forget.

Do you really want to forget you live next door to a child molester?..Do you really want to forget your best friend slept with your husband?..

What about being as wise as a serpent?..Wisdom does not come from forgetting.We would remain infants and targets to those who wish to do us harm if we "forgot"...Not only that..we learn and grow wiser by NOT forgetting our own mistakes..

Love

Dallas

 

[Aqualung]

You need to read Romans. It's all about how people can get obsessed with trying to be 'like God' rather than actually 'following God'. It's important to understand and accept the limitations of our human, sinful nature so that we can turn to God and be strong when we cannot. I'm sorry, but it is impossible to 'miraculously' forget things. I don't know how you think this is possible or how it is biblical. Maybe I could ask God to 'miraculously' turn me into a superhero so I can better serve people with the ability to fly and see through walls.

The reason we can't forget things is 1) the sin of others is not our responsibility and 2) if we forgot, we could not forgive. Why would Jesus command us to forgive 'seventy times seven' times if we could forget the wrongdoing after one mere act of forgiveness. Instead of forgetting, we must CONSTANTLY FORGIVE, which is what God does.

Besides, why do we need to forget anyway? If we are able to love someone enough to treat them as if they had never sinned, what's the difference?

Fair enough. I disagree with your position, but it seems as well-based in your interpretation of the scriptures as mine is based in my interpretation, so any debate we continued to have would be fruitless.

 

[Aqualung]

Do you really want to forget you live next door to a child molester?..Do you really want to forget your best friend slept with your husband?..

I really want to be forginven for MY sins, and Christ taught that we would be forgiven as we forgive others. Thus, I at least have the responsibility to FORGIVE them. But how can I forgive and NOT forget? If I don't forget, then I constantly treat them as a sinner. If I treat them as a sinner, how is that forgiving?

Let me try another line of questioning. What IS forgiveness, if not forgetting? How do you forgive the child molester?

 

[Dunemeister]

Forget, as the opposite of remember, can just mean that he never calls them into his consciousness or that he acts like they never happened. He won't count them against us.

This is exactly what I said. So it appears that, in this at least, we agree.

And yet, if we live by the principle of "won't let them do it again", we're treating them differently. If we repent of our sins, God gives us another chance. He even gives us another chance up the point of allowing us to go into the same situations. I don't know how many times I've sinned again after repenting because I found myself in the original position again. And yet, when God forgives, it even includes "letting us do it again". Shouldn't our forgiveness strive to the same level as God's?

No, God doesn't "allow us" to sin again. God hates sin as much now as he ever did. He simply doesn't let previous sins stand in the way of our fellowship with him. Besides, if you find yourself repeatedly sinning under the same circumstances, you should question whether you actually repented in the first instance.

Does it count as "holding sin against us" if we always treat the people around us as sinners? By not allowing them to do it again, we are acknowledging their sin and changing the way we treat them because of it. That's holding it against them. They might truly have changed, and might want to show us that they've changed, but we will never let them, and will continue to treat them as sinners. That's not the type of forgiveness God exhibits.

It's not a matter of "not allowing them to do it again." Rather, reconciliation -- the ultimate goal -- is contingent on two things. First, the sinner must repent, which includes a commitment not to repeat the offense and making restitution where possible. Second, the victim must forgive, which includes a commitment not to hold the sin against the perpetrator. The victim doesn't forget the sin, in the sense that he honestly can't recall the event. Rather, as you've said, forgetting means not holding it against them.

I'd say there's a great deal more agreement than disagreement between us. Perhaps we're just arguing semantics.

 

[DallasApple]

I really want to be forginven for MY sins, and Christ taught that we would be forgiven as we forgive others. Thus, I at least have the responsibility to FORGIVE them. But how can I forgive and NOT forget? If I don't forget, then I constantly treat them as a sinner. If I treat them as a sinner, how is that forgiving?

Let me try another line of questioning. What IS forgiveness, if not forgetting? How do you forgive the child molester?

You forgive a child molester by keeping your children as far away from him/her as you can..You have more obligations than to "forgive"...

Otherwise YOU can explain to your children why you FORGOT he was a child molester because you were trying to emulate God so that you risked and sacrificed them and why THEY had to pay and suffer for your "forgetfulness"...But then you could tell your children to forgive you and FORGET that you had to forget the child molester got a hold of them..Because you were trying to be God like..

Love

Dallas

 

[Aqualung]

This is exactly what I said. So it appears that, in this at least, we agree.

Lol, fair enough.

No, God doesn't "allow us" to sin again.

He allows us to be tempted, and he allows us to make our own choices in the face of temptation. This in no way implies he likes sin, but he certainly values free will more than he values us never sinning.

Besides, if you find yourself repeatedly sinning under the same circumstances, you should question whether you actually repented in the first instance.

That's true.

I'd say there's a great deal more agreement than disagreement between us. Perhaps we're just arguing semantics.

Perhaps, yes.