Christians: do you think your God is all powerful

[Forgemaster]

Do you believe your God is all powerful (able to to anything any time he chooses) and that he is omnipotent (being everywhere and knowing everything that's going on) if so I have some questions. If not then why don't you think that?
1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden.
2. If God knows anything then why did he make the devil?
3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to.
4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?

 

[Glaurung]

The trouble with these kinds of objections is that not only are they littered with literalist assumptions, but assumes too much about how God should act.

1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden.

The point of the story is to establish God as the creator, and that as a result of human choice we are estranged from God. The fall of humanity was succumbing to the lie that we as mere creatures can determine good and evil without reference to the moral order of God. Why did God create us? Because God by his purposes brings about the greater good from doing so.

2. If God knows anything then why did he make the devil?

The devil is not a being outside the power of God. The devil is not an adversary of God in the sense that the devil can actually challenge God. The devil is a mere creature who has chosen evil by free exercise of his will. God permits this because again, the devil's evil only gives rise the the greater good brought forth by God.

3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to.

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at it. God became man, so man can become like God. Jesus took on a human nature to sanctify and redeem that human nature.

4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?

No because you're reading in bogus assumptions about the nature of the incarnation.

 

[prometheus11]

1. He had no choice. God may only do that which is perfect and required.

2. Every narrative needs an antagonist.

3. God is not all powerful. He's simply the most mysterious actor in the drama. And, there must always be a sacrifice, and the more "pure" the sacrifice, the more unique, powerful, and intriguing.

4. No. There is no such thing as "sin."

 

[Rapha]

Do you believe your God is all powerful (able to to anything any time he chooses) and that he is omnipotent (being everywhere and knowing everything that's going on) if so I have some questions. If not then why don't you think that?

1) the God Presence beyond the Universe is completely the opposite to the evil Annunaki aliens that called themselves gods when they played with human DNA on Day 6 to create a human slave race. If it wasn't for the Anunaki invasion, the Apple of Knowledge event would never have occurred.
2) Annunaki leader Enlil (Yahweh) has a evil brother called Enki (Lucifer). The devil or HaSatan is Azazel or leader of the Djinn that quite happily co-existed with humans before the Annunaki invaded.
Imagine a scientist with a pet cat, giving a lab rat superior knowledge and then ordering his cat to obey the rats orders. Well, this is what happened when Lucifer ordered Azazel to obey Adams every order after the Annunaki gave some Neanderthal people better intelligence. Naturally, HaSatan (Azazel) went ballistic and said screw you aliens.
3) The God Presence beyond the Universe has created a unbreakable link where human spirits can return to the Source. Naturally, the evil Archons and Annunaki catch the spirits at death and make the human spirits reincarnate into their hell-hole called Earth.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

3. You are arguing against a straw man and probably have been mislead about the nature of atonement. This question is really N/A. It has nothing to do with 'God needing to send his son to die' or with God being able to forgive. The main idea is that humanity is separated from life by evil, but now it may return to life. Now it may undo the damage done in the garden story.

But the insistence is that it was the particular act of Jesus dying at the hands of humanity that "undid" the damage, correct? I believe the OP's question is actually more of a "why this particular act?" Why did it have to be so morally questionable an event? Why is it that the act that most acquits humanity of ALL sin is in the moment we committed probably the greatest sin of all time in crucifying Jesus? God being infinitely capable, it could have been done in any way He chose - including simply offering salvation freely from a particular moment onward to any that would have it. And if a different moment had been chosen, then all of these questions surrounding the relative "morality" of the setup and execution of said event wouldn't exist - very possibly making some people more apt to believe and "be saved" - and God certainly should have foreseen that.

Besides any of that, the fact that He OWNS ALL OF IT and is capable of RESTORING ALL OF IT to any condition He wills at any moment negates the "sacrifice" aspect of the event entirely. It was no sacrifice. If I were able to regenerate limbs at will, and I was to make a pact of great importance with you, would it impress you at all if I swore my oath to you on my right arm? I can tell you that it shouldn't impress you in the least - and indeed, you should question the soundness of my promise to you if that was all I were to offer you to sanctify our agreement.

 

[Forgemaster]

The trouble with these kinds of objections is that not only are they littered with literalist assumptions, but assumes too much about how God should act.

So am to I assume you believe the bible is a big metaphor? In which case why believe at all of yours belief is based on a metaphor?

The point of the story is to establish God as the creator, and that as a result of human choice we are estranged from God. The fall of humanity was succumbing to the lie that we as mere creatures can determine good and evil without reference to the moral order of God. Why did God create us? Because God by his purposes brings about the greater good from doing so.

So the greater good involves rape, murder, insest, genocide, etc? so the question was referring to the fact that if God knew we were to fail why bother?

The devil is not a being outside the power of God. The devil is not an adversary of God in the sense that the devil can actually challenge God. The devil is a mere creature who has chosen evil by free exercise of his will. God permits this because again, the devil's evil only gives rise the the greater good brought forth by God.

Again, not the answer to question I asked, if God knew the devil was to betray him then why make him? And then why let him cause havoc to the human race?

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at it. God became man, so man can become like God. Jesus took on a human nature to sanctify and redeem that human nature.

But why that way? It's morally questionable by gods standards! He could dish out forgiveness as he saw fit

No because you're reading in bogus assumptions about the nature of the incarnation.

I don't really think I am, it's not bogus. Jesus asked to not die, showing he didn't want to do it so he was forced so it was murder but seeing as Jesus is God it was suicide

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Jesus obedience to the point of death undid the damage. His actual death was not required to accomplish this.

It is this very thing, though that many people find tiring when trying to wrap their heads around what, exactly, is trying to be conveyed by the texts, the pastors, the priests, the rabbis, etc. etc. These types of rationalizations are come to time and time again because new questions force the adherents of a belief to stretch their train of thought deeper to find some more sensical meaning - a better "excuse." Therefore the apology is made for the old way of thinking, and on a new, shinier platter is handed out something that they all hope (and can only hope) satisfies the hunger of the people looking for truth in the answers.

I'm not saying that religious belief shouldn't evolve and change over time, but (especially in the case of Christianity) when an account is claimed to "be perfect", it is immediately known to those perusing the wares of such an account that apologies shouldn't have to be made. And when they are it can only be interpreted as weakness.

 

[Brickjectivity]

="Musing Bassist The trouble with these kinds of objections is that not only are they littered with literalist assumptions, but assumes too much about how God should act.

So am to I assume you believe the bible is a big metaphor? In which case why believe at all of yours belief is based on a metaphor?


The point of the story is to establish God as the creator, and that as a result of human choice we are estranged from God. The fall of humanity was succumbing to the lie that we as mere creatures can determine good and evil without reference to the moral order of God. Why did God create us? Because God by his purposes brings about the greater good from doing so.

So the greater good involves rape, murder, insest, genocide, etc? so the question was referring to the fact that if God knew we were to fail why bother?


The devil is not a being outside the power of God. The devil is not an adversary of God in the sense that the devil can actually challenge God. The devil is a mere creature who has chosen evil by free exercise of his will. God permits this because again, the devil's evil only gives rise the the greater good brought forth by God.

Again, not the answer to question I asked, if God knew the devil was to betray him then why make him? And then why let him cause havoc to the human race?


That's a rather simplistic way of looking at it. God became man, so man can become like God. Jesus took on a human nature to sanctify and redeem that human nature.

But why that way? It's morally questionable by gods standards! He could dish out forgiveness as he saw fit


No because you're reading in bogus assumptions about the nature of the incarnation.

I don't really think I am, it's not bogus. Jesus asked to not die, showing he didn't want to do it so he was forced so it was murder but seeing as Jesus is God it was suicide

Excuse this interruption but please use the quote system so we don't wind up with a confusing mess of unreadable text. To quote something you can highlight it and on the little menu find the 'insert quotes'. Here's an example of how to to add quotes and other BBCODE in forums:

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is this very thing, though that many people find tiring when trying to wrap their heads around what, exactly, is trying to be conveyed by the texts, the pastors, the priests, the rabbis, etc. etc. These types of rationalizations are come to time and time again because new questions force the adherents of a belief to stretch their train of thought deeper to find some more sensical meaning - a better "excuse." Therefore the apology is made for the old way of thinking, and on a new, shinier platter is handed out something that they all hope (and can only hope) satisfies the hunger of the people looking for truth in the answers.

I'm not saying that religious belief shouldn't evolve and change over time, but (especially in the case of Christianity) when an account is claimed to "be perfect", it is immediately known to those perusing the wares of such an account that apologies shouldn't have to be made. And when they are it can only be interpreted as weakness.

Many people, me included, begin with a version of Christianity and then spend great portions of our lives meandering about trying to research it, avoiding the subject, making discoveries and trying to defend ideas. A Christian like me has to wonder why God would make so much searching and scrambling necessary, just as a pagan has to wonder why the gods seem like they sponsored Christianity for a while and disappeared -- and now they're coming back? Its all very weird.

My thoughts are that since we are the first 'Internet' generation that its good for us to discuss all of our ideas for the benefit of people in the future, to help them better connect with their past. I wouldn't mind being their bridge to the past.

 

[Yoshua]

Do you believe your God is all powerful (able to to anything any time he chooses) and that he is omnipotent (being everywhere and knowing everything that's going on) if so I have some questions. If not then why don't you think that?

Hi Forge,

Yes, I believe that my God is all powerful, omnipotent and all-knowing.

1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden.

This is a question that is beyond God's knowledge and understanding why He created humans. I believed that it is His great pleasure to create a sinless human.

2. If God knows anything then why did he make the devil?

God did not make the devil. He created spirit beings. They have given free-will same as humans.

3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to.

There are 50 reasons why God sent His Son Jesus Christ but I would give some of it.
a. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show forgiveness for our sins.
b. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show the love of the Father.
c. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to give us hope for the salvation of our souls.
d. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to free us from the slavery of sin.
e. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to be with Him forever in eternity.
f. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show God's will for us.
g. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to know the truth.
h. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to know who God is.

4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?

God's showing of His love for us is not a suicide act or murderous act, but a way of showing His great love for us by offering His (Jesus) life to die for the sake of our sins that leads to death.

Thanks

 

[rusra02]

Do you believe your God is all powerful (able to to anything any time he chooses) and that he is omnipotent (being everywhere and knowing everything that's going on) if so I have some questions. If not then why don't you think that?

1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden.

I believe God can foreknow anything he chooses to but does not choose to foreknow everything.

2. If God knows anything then why did he make the devil?

Is a liar and murderer born or self-made? The devil made himself what he is, IMO.

3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to.

God's perfect justice requires the scales of justice be balanced. I believe God will never violate his own standards for the sake of an easy way out.

4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?

Jesus explained that "the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) It was the true God who provided this perfect human life by sending his Son to provide it. I believe that Jesus sinless life could serve as a perfect equivalent of the human life Adam squandered by sinning. Through Jesus' perfect life given in sacrifice, the scales of divine justice are balanced, and the legal basis laid for God to forgive our sins. As Romans 6:23 explains; "For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord." I am convinced God's provision of the ransom is perfect, loving, and just.

 

[Estro Felino]

1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden. God knows nothing, not even what you will do in the next hour

2. If God knows anything then why did he make the devil? His Creation is free. He couldn't foresee what free will would have provoked

3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to. Jesus didn't come as a Savior, but as a Teacher

4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?
Precisely. Jesus didn't want to be murdered (Who would?). He was murdered, so it doesn't deal with a suicide

God's Omniscience is just a fabrication.

 

[johnhanks]

There are 50 reasons why God sent His Son Jesus Christ but I would give some of it.
a. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show forgiveness for our sins.
b. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show the love of the Father.
c. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to give us hope for the salvation of our souls.
d. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to free us from the slavery of sin.
e. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to be with Him forever in eternity.
f. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to show God's will for us.
g. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to know the truth.
h. Jesus Christ sent His Son (to be a human) to know who God is.

Any and all of these could have been achieved by an omnipotent god without incarnating itself in the body of a Nazarene carpenter and having him killed. This is an all-too-typical christian non-answer.

 

[Yoshua]

1. If God knows everything and everything that is going to happen why did he still make humans and put the tree in the garden. God knows nothing, not even what you will do in the next hour

Hi Luca,

If God knows nothing, how can He be called God? Who do you think knows everything?

3. If God is all powerful why must he send his son/himself to die when he could more easily forgive whoever he wanted whenever he wanted to. Jesus didn't come as a Savior, but as a Teacher

Luke 2:11
11. for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

Matt. 1:21
21. "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it is He who will save His people from their sins."

1 Tim. 1:15
15. It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

Titus 2:13
13. looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;

Phil. 3:20
20. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

4. Jesus lived a sinless life yet he is God and knew he was going to die, in fact that was the point, so wouldn't that be considered suicide/murder (it seems Jesus had to do it as that was 'God's will') so wouldn't that be a sin?
Precisely. Jesus didn't want to be murdered (Who would?). He was murdered, so it doesn't deal with a suicide

There is no murder in the plan of the Father (God) by sending Jesus Christ to served as the atonement for our sins. It is not murder, it is a sacrifice for man's sins.
Rom. 3:25
25. whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

Any and all of these could have been achieved by an omnipotent god without incarnating itself in the body of a Nazarene carpenter and having him killed. This is an all-too-typical christian non-answer.

Hi John,

There is a plan, a purpose and a reason why God who is omnipotent sent His Son Jesus Christ.
John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

Thanks

 

[johnhanks]

Hi John,

There is a plan, a purpose and a reason why God who is omnipotent sent His Son Jesus Christ.
John 3:16-17
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

Thanks

Still a huge non sequitur, I'm afraid. Do we picture god fretting over how he can forgive everyone and save the world, then smiting his divine forehead and saying "Of course! I'll impregnate a virgin, have her give birth to a son, let him wander the world preaching for a bit, then have him tortured to death. That'll do it!"

It makes no sense, save as a desperate after-the-event rationalisation by his followers of Jesus's otherwise catastrophic and inexplicable arrest and execution.

 

[InChrist]

Still a huge non sequitur, I'm afraid. Do we picture god fretting over how he can forgive everyone and save the world, then smiting his divine forehead and saying "Of course! I'll impregnate a virgin, have her give birth to a son, let him wander the world preaching for a bit, then have him tortured to death. That'll do it!"

It makes no sense, save as a desperate after-the-event rationalisation by his followers of Jesus's otherwise catastrophic and inexplicable arrest and execution.

No, we don't picture a God as your caricature. I think it must only make no sense to you because you are biblically illiterate. The scriptures give no indication of fretting or desperation on the part of God. Nor, was the incarnation of the Son to human flesh and His sacrifice for the sins of the world an unplanned, last minute, nonsensical event.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ... Ephesians 1:3-10

 

[InChrist]

Any and all of these could have been achieved by an omnipotent god without incarnating itself in the body of a Nazarene carpenter and having him killed. This is an all-too-typical christian non-answer.

How, from your perspective, could God forgive the sins of the world without the sacrifice of Jesus?

 

[johnhanks]

How, from your perspective, could God forgive the sins of the world without the sacrifice of Jesus?

From my perspective the whole story is myth and rationalisation. But if we go with the myth for a moment, given that no-one alive at the time had committed the alleged wrong in the first place, what's so impossible about "OK, you're forgiven"?

Your suggestion that god was incapable of an act of forgiveness without engineering someone's agonising death is remarkable.

 

[InChrist]

From my perspective the whole story is myth and rationalisation. But if we go with the myth for a moment, given that no-one alive at the time had committed the alleged wrong in the first place, what's so impossible about "OK, you're forgiven"?

Your suggestion that god was incapable of an act of forgiveness without engineering someone's agonising death is remarkable.

If you think the biblical account to be myth then why bother to discuss or even think about? To even suggest that an absolutely, perfectly Holy Being, as the scriptures attest God is, should just "forgive" displays a complete lack of understanding concerning the destructive nature and impact of sin on the universe God created and the cost to Himself and everyone. The only answer for sin according to the scriptures is...that it must be put to death. The remarkable thing is that God did not engineer just "someone's" death, as anyone's death could not possibly have dealt with the gravity of the sins of the world, instead it was His own death in the flesh.