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Christians--Do Evangelicals Believe Everyone Else Going to Hell?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Starfish, Apr 4, 2008.

  1. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I owe you an apology. I misread your statement. I thought you were saying that the creeds summarize what the Bible intended to say. In re-reading your post, I see that I was obviously wrong about that. I still don't see how they can summarize a concept that the Bible doesn't appear to be teaching, but I guess we will never see eye to eye on that because you do believe the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are "one substance." I just think it teaches that they are "one."
     
  2. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    No worries. That's a fair approximation of our disagreement, Katzpur.
     
  3. Jeremy Mason

    Jeremy Mason Well-Known Member

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    Jesus isn't a divider?

    Matthew 10:34-36

    34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
    " 'a man against his father,
    a daughter against her mother,
    a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
    36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

    Jesus wasn't promoting disunity, he was saying that family member and friends will disagree about theological issues concerning the Messiah/ Himself. I'm curious how you read this Scripture.
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I don't think Jesus is the divider. We are the dividers. The concept that some people aren't "real" Christians started with the Apostles. Jesus had to remind even them that they needed to stop being so exclusionary.

    Mark 9:38-40 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.
     
  5. budhabee

    budhabee Member

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    uh huh love but that did not answer the question. People in the third world or an illiterate world who may not even have a alphabet or not be allowed to read the Bible are condemmed to hell????? Ask yourself if you would condemm them to hell. Is that the way our Christ would be? I think not. Reply?
     
  6. Ratiocinative

    Ratiocinative Member

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    As I said before, if the Bible says that people can be saved without believing in Christ, then prove it. Quote a scripture that shows someone being saved without believing in Christ. Otherwise you're just making stuff up.
     
  7. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    There are some Christians who seem determined to turn all non-Christians off to Christianity. What a shame.
     
  8. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    Main Stream Christians

    You are correct that it is not implying anything... it just says it.

    That my friend is what we call circular logic... ;)
     
  9. Jeremy Mason

    Jeremy Mason Well-Known Member

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    I see what you are say about people being divisive. The point I was getting at was Jesus was telling people to recognizes his boundaries. The whole father against son thing illustrates that Jesus's social reform will transcend family and culture.

    I love that story, and total agree that Christian's need more fellowship with all demoninations. As steel sharpens steel.

    The other side of the coin is that in the first century church there were heresies that the Apostles needed to address. Paul had to differentiate between the Old and New Law. He also had non-christian influence to contend with as well.
     
  10. IIChr7:14

    IIChr7:14 Member

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    Actually what buhbee say's, what about those illiterate people in the third world are they condemned to hell?

    If I may add, how about mongoloids, countries where bible is prohibited are they too condemned to hell?

    Let us consult the scriptures,

    Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    So if faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the word of God.

    How can someone have faith if he does'nt hear the word of God?
    How can you therefore believe in Christ and have faith if you dont hear the word of God?

    If these kind of people who in no other way have heard the word of God, I believe they HAVE a chance for salvation. Moreso to illiterate people who does'nt know Abc's and have no chance to hear the word of God.

    My God is a God of justice. He will give justice to every man on what is due to him.

    Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    God will show mercy on WHOMEVER he wants to have mercy.
    And by the word "whomever" surely that includes illiterate, mongolids, gays, and those people who did not believe in Christ because they did not have a chance to hear the words of God.

    So who am I to condemn someone who will have the mercy of God. God Forbid!

    Am I going to argue with God on His judgement? God Forbid!

    As God said in,
    Isaiah 55:8
    For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

    My thoughts are nothing compared to Him neither are my ways.
    To God be the glory.
     
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  11. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

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    nice:bow:
     
  12. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Romans 1 - 2 makes the case that those who have never known Christ can be saved. Indeed, some of these people will condemn so-called Christians on the Last Day.
     
  13. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    All logic worth its salt is circular. But that aside, it's not viciously circular. If the statement had meant there were many gods, we would expect Jews, the stewards of the document that bears the term, to believe in many gods. But they don't. They themselves say it doesn't mean that there are many gods. Rather, they themselves (and the Christians who inherited the document from them) have always affirmed that it doesn't imply a plurality of gods, but is a facon de parler intended to imply the majesty, not the plurality, of the speaker. Hence the parallel with kings and queens using "us" to refer to themselves. Therefore, without EXTREMELY compelling reasons to think that Jews as a whole don't understand their own language and the conventions that govern its use, I think we should align our understanding with them. Comprehend? ;)
     
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  14. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

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    Hello,

    If I may intrude a bit, to apply the pluralis majestatis to Hebrew texts would be anachronistic. No such phrasing existed in antiquity or within Hebrew parlance. As to any strict Jewish monotheism: this is a dated position. There is a well established academic literature that covers the moves from within Jewry from a monolatrous to monotheistic view. This understanding involves textual criticism, comparisons of the Hebrew Bible with the Dead Sea Scrolls material, Ugaritic texts and archeological studies. In simple terms, Hebrew metaphysical claims were not static.

    Here's a few examples from the literature:


    "The Origins of Biblical Monotheism: Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts"

    "Did God Have A Wife? Archeology And Folk Religion In Ancient Israel"

    "The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God"


    I've not followed your discussion, but if one posits a Judaism that has always been a strict monotheism, then that undercuts any subsequent Christian Trinitarian claims, unless one opts for a modalism.
     
  15. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Modalism is merely one way of understanding trinitarianism. Nicean trinitarian preserves monotheism -- that was the whole point.

    But you raise a good point about anachronism. And there's no doubt that the Jewish community changed their ideas about the deity over time. I'm only concerned, though, with the view expressed in the documents we have. We can get turned around in circles with textual criticism because the only limiting factor in those investigations are the imaginations of the scholars. So it's safe to say that there's little of value in searching out sources and tracing developments. Occasionally, it may be helpful, but generally not.

    Suffice to say that the Jews who wrote and cherished Genesis believed in creational, covenantal monotheism. They didn't believe in many gods. In fact, Genesis was intended to counter Mesopotamian polytheism. So there can be no question that "us" implied a plurality of gods. For the writer of Genesis, there was one and only one God, and he was Israel's god. This god created the world and made a covenant with Israel to be their god and they his people.
     
  16. Ratiocinative

    Ratiocinative Member

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    ROFL? Romans 1 is the WORST chapter to cite if you're trying to argue that people can be saved without knowing Christ. It says that people have no excuse whatsoever for knowing God, and that people have every opportunity to know about God but that they deliberately choose to believe lies about God rather than the truth(v18-23). Paul also says that he isn't ashamed of the good news about Christ which saves everyone who believes, that this salvation is accomplished from beginning to end by faith, and then he quotes Hab 2:4, which is "The righteous will live by faith"(v16-17). All of this in Romans 1.
     
  17. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

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    Romans 2:3 - 11 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgement of God? Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgement will be revealed. For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality.

    The bolded text applies to everyone -- Jews, Christians, and otherwise. It therefore applies to those who don't know Christ. The person who does not know Christ will be judged based on the totality of the life lived -- as will the Christian.

    So ROFL if you like.....
     
  18. Ratiocinative

    Ratiocinative Member

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    The only thing bold about your post is how boldly you take things out of context. Paul is writing to the Jews about the fact that God doesn't play favorites and that the Jews aren't going to be saved simply because they are Jews. He isn't telling them they are saved by their works, which is why the word saved never even appears in chapter 2, he's telling them that it isn't merely knowing the law that brings God's approval, but actually doing it (which he says in 2:13).

    He goes on in the next couple chapters to talk about how the Gentiles and Jews are the same, they all can be saved if they have faith, and if they don't then they won't. Paul clearly preaches through his letters that the only way to be saved is to believe in Christ, as do the other apostles. To claim that any of the New Testament writers, especially Paul, preached anything other than salvation through faith in Christ alone shows that you lack even the most basic of reading comprehension skills. It can easily be seen that Paul teaches that we are saved by faith in Christ, and nothing else, because he says it over and over and over and over and over again. Just look at how many times Paul mentions Christ, faith, and the law only brings condemnation. To cling to vague out of context interpretations shows that you have no real concern for what the text actually says, just how you can twist it to say what you want it to.
     
  19. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    Not to anyone who understands it. :rolleyes:

    Feel free to educate yourself a bit about circular logic (from an easy to read source) and then give your argument another shot if you like.

    I understood your "logic" the first time. That didn't mean I wanted a longer iteration of the same circular, flawed logic... Thanks for that. :cover:

    I am assuming the Jews understood their own language as well, they could have used the singular term as they later did but they didn't. I assume the original author understood his own language. ;)

    What you are trying to argue is akin to saying that 3,000 years from now, Americans will better understand the intent of each word in the U.S. Constitution than the original authors... I don't think so. :p


    EDIT:

    After re-reading your argument, I think I assumed that you understood the verse a little better than you actually do. I wasn't talking about the word "us". Check the Hebrew of the ENTIRE verse:

    'elohiym {el-o-heem'**
    Hebrew: noun masculine p
    Possible Definitions:
    1) (plural)
    1a) rulers, judges
    1b) divine ones
    1c) angels
    1d) gods
    2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
    2a) god, goddess
    2b) godlike one
    2c) works or special possessions of God
    2d) the (true) God
    2e) God
    'elohiym {el-o-heem'**
    Hebrew: noun masculine p
    plural of 433;
    Strong's Number 430
     
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  20. budhabee

    budhabee Member

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    I asked you about what your inner feelings were telling you. What your heart was telling you. Are you a compassionate being or not. Their is something evil with that concept the way people interpret it. That is my thought. When I first moved to the reservation as a pre teen. I made many friends. I became interested in their religion and in their holy outlook on life. They already have the holy spirit in their lives which was a gift from Jesus. What do you want? Where have I "made stuff up?"
     
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