1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christians--Do Evangelicals Believe Everyone Else Going to Hell?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Starfish, Apr 4, 2008.

  1. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    I'll leave that sort of determination up to God (or uss_bigd).
     
  2. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414

    Just in case anyone would like some help understanding what Latter-Day Saints believe about Jesus Christ:

    JesusChrist.lds.org
     
  3. Izdaari

    Izdaari Emergent Anglo-Catholic

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    285
    Ratings:
    +57
    Religion:
    Episcopalian + Zen & Taoist
    I would say you are a Christian, albeit a heretical one... but to be a heretic, you must first be a Christian. LDS have, in the opinion of we Nicene Christians, some rather odd beliefs about Christ and various other matters. But according to Romans 10:9-10, if you confess Him as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you are saved. It doesn't say "confess Him as Lord and have an orthodox theological understanding of His divine nature and of the Trinity". God does not expect us all to be theologians, much less perfectly correct theologians. It is enough that we do our best to follow Him, according to our best understanding.

    Just my opinion of course. Only God's opinion really counts on this. :angel2:
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Starfish

    Starfish Please no sarcasm

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +137
    As I understand it, the Southern Baptist Convention says that LDS are not Christians, therefore hell-bound. If you are correct, does that discredit the SBC? Do you see the problem of inconsistency within the traditional Christian community?
     
  5. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,694
    Ratings:
    +6,350
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Well, I guess that beats the alternative point of view. ;)

    What do Nicene Christians have to say about pre-Nicene Christians?
     
  6. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    Good bunch, baked good cookies. :) jk

    Before the creeds were formulated and endorsed, the nature of the relationship between the divine in Christ to the divine in the Father was an open question. So Arians and Athanasians (as unitarians and trinitarians would come to be called) would both be considered more or less orthodox. Interesting question!
     
  7. Izdaari

    Izdaari Emergent Anglo-Catholic

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2008
    Messages:
    285
    Ratings:
    +57
    Religion:
    Episcopalian + Zen & Taoist
    From my PoV, I think the SBC is incorrect about many things. Overall, they don't differ from Izdaarian orthodoxy nearly as much as LDS, but I'd still call them heretical on a few points... in a loving way. And I'm sure they'd say the same about my unique brand of Emergent Pentecostalism. But despite our differences, I still call us (you, me and the SBC) brothers and sisters in Christ.

    Certainly traditional Christians don't agree on everything, but I don't see that there's any real need for us to. We agree on the most important things, and I see that as sufficient.
     
  8. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414
    So, before a group of men had humbly laid down their glorious opinion about the nature of God, God could accept believers of either christian group but once mighty man had spoken, God had to respect those wise men and their determination and only "save" the Nicene christians.

    Aint that kinda backwards?

    All this time I thought it was God's job to do the explaining and ours to listen rather than the other way around...


    Hey! God!... It's Comprehend down here.... I want a pony!!!
     
  9. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2005
    Messages:
    30,694
    Ratings:
    +6,350
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    You sound like my kind of Christian, girl!
     
  10. uss_bigd

    uss_bigd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,246
    Ratings:
    +20
    Acts 26:17-18

    Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

    Why would Christ send Paul to the gentiles if they were already condemned?
    hence, they are not condemned. The important question then is, who is considered a gentile?:angel2:
     
  11. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    That's not what I said. Read what I said again and lose the attitude.
     
  12. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414
    There was no attitude, it was humerous. Maybe you should try to lighten up a bit.

    Also, my reading comprehension is just fine. Maybe you could take another whack at explaining it...
     
  13. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    Whatever...

    I beg to differ. If you think what I said implies your parody, you should get back to your Grade 1 English primers for a review. Besides, since you've already shown me that you're not all that interested in anything but parody, why should I bother?

    For a good example of how to disagree with dignity and respect, look at almost anything written by Katzpur.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414
    If you don't like someone making a point with humor, you shouldn't go outside, or on the internet anymore.

    Like I said before, if you think my characterization is incorrect, maybe you could explain where I got it wrong... :)

    Since I'm brand new here, thanks for showing me the ropes. I can see that you are a wise RF veteran. I'll look up that Katzpur fellow when I get a chance but that guy looks like he is a cat lover and I like dogs more so I couldn't be friends with him. (of course the guy is soft on you, he is a cat lover for crikey sakes, real men love dogs... uh, that came out wrong.)

    If you REALLY want to argue about what you wrote, I'll be happy to. You said (implicity or explicitly) that before the Nicene creed, either understanding would be "orthodox", or, in other words, get one into heaven (in your opinion). BUT, after the creed, one must adhere to the Nicene understanding in order to be considered "orthodox", which means as I pointed out in my parody, that man had just dictated to God, rather than the other way around.

    I still want a pony. :cool:

    ps. I got a perfect score on the reading comprehension portion of the LSAT, what did you get?
     
  15. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    "Orthodox" does not mean "get into heaven." And "getting into heaven" is not a matter of being fully "orthodox".

    Before Nicene, the question of the relation of the divine in the father and that of the divine in the son hadn't been fully worked out. The disputants would all have been regarded as being equally orthodox. The whole point of the debate (and the council of Nicea) was to settle this question (only partially successful -- another council was needed). Post Nicene, the issue had been decided. Thus, to be fully in communion with the church, and to be regarded as fully orthodox, one must hold a Nicene understanding of God.

    That said, NOTHING follows about a person's status as "saved" or whatever. A non-Nicene Christian might well be saved. If she is, it's not because she is (or isn't) Nicene. It's because she confesses Jesus as Lord and believes in her heart that God raised her from the dead. However, because she holds to a different notion of what the words "Jesus" and "God" mean, she won't enjoy full communion with the church.

    Being saved is a matter of placing one's whole future in the hands of God and thus obeying Jesus as your Master. Being a member of the church is different. If you don't hold to the Nicene faith, you are out of fellowship with the historic Christian church. Salvation has to do with your fellowship with God. Conformity to the creeds is a matter of fellowship with the church. These are different points.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Starfish

    Starfish Please no sarcasm

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +137
    If a non-Nicene Christian can be saved (assuming 'being saved' means you are admitted into heaven), what are the reasons for being in "full communion with the church"?
     
  17. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414
    If that isn't what you meant by it, then how was your response an answer to katzpur's question? The topic of this thread *does* happen to be "whether evangelicals believe everyone else is going to hell" so if you were not making that distinction with your orthodox designation, you weren't saying much of anything at all.

    hmm. I disagree, I think Jesus did a fine job of explaining the relationship before the pagans got to doing it.

    Thus, to be fully in communion with the church, and to be regarded as fully orthodox, one must hold a Nicene understanding of God.

    Bummer, that was kind of the point of the thread...

    Somehow I doubt it would matter much to one who is "saved" that they do not enjoy "full communion" with the church...

    ok... but the thread isn't asking about anyone's fellowship with the church so if that was your point, I would have to ask *why* you bothered to make it when the topic is salvation, not fellowship in a church? :shrug:
     
  18. Dunemeister

    Dunemeister Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2008
    Messages:
    4,583
    Ratings:
    +378
    No, but the conversation went that way. Sorry to have confused you.
     
  19. Starfish

    Starfish Please no sarcasm

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,391
    Ratings:
    +137
    Mainstream Christians tell us repeatedly that the Bible is enough and that we need nothing beyond it. Then why did we need the Nicene Creed?
     
  20. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    4,560
    Ratings:
    +414
    Obviously because the Bible isn't anything until you have a Pagan to interpret it... :D
     
Loading...