Christians, change my mind: the more I think of substitutionary atonement, the less it makes sense.

[Jos]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

 

[shunyadragon]

It never did make sense, except from an ancient perspective of the belief in sacrifice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nice

 

[epronovost]

It never did make sense, except from an ancient perspective of the belief in sacrifice.

Precisely, the doctrine of atonement only make sense if you understand the beliefs of Ancient Hebrews about magic and blood curses.

 

[74x12]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

Yes

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

He came to destroy sin in the flesh of His body. That work is undone when we keep on sinning. Because we bring sin back to life which He put to death. Jesus gives a fighting chance against evil.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

Incorrect to believe God created death. Sin made death and God hates death. If God gets rid of sin (by putting it to death on the cross) then you won't have to worry about dying.

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

He puts our sin to death and because He rose from the dead free from sin and death forever. So if you are become like He is then you'll be the same way. You'll be dead to sin and live forever.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

Not trinitarian but Jesus was God. Everyone is body, soul and spirit. Jesus the same. His body could die; not His soul and Spirit.

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

They didn't repent.
Life jacket will only keep you from drowning if you take it.

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

This life is a chance to repent. That's why the suffering so you can change and grow spiritually. God wants people to be strong and brave. Suffering makes a man or woman. Look at a man who had it easy his whole life. As a consequence; he never really grew up. He's still a baby (as an adult) just as when he was born. He was never challenged.

Spiritually, God wants people to grow and to develop virtue and learn to hate evil.

 

[Iymus]

0. Promise, Mercy, Accountability.

Can Jesus really save anyone?

1. Anyone seems eligible but Passover Lamb seems to be a gift that is conditional.

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

----------------

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture?

2. Said to be God's promise.

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person?

3. No longer after any such prior prophecies or proclamations.

Eze 18:2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?
Eze 18:3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eze 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

 

[Galateasdream]

Just to note that penal substationary atonement is only one of a number of atonement theories present in Christianity, and not accepted by all.

 

[nPeace]

This is the second time I have heard this phrase "change my mind", so let me first suggest...
No one can change anyone's mind, but the person themselves. Only you can change your mind.
If we were robots, it would be possible for someone to change our mind, since they can reprogram it... but humans are not robot.

What Christians can do, is what the apostles did. For example, Paul began to be intensely occupied with the word, witnessing to the Jews to prove that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 18:5), and with great intensity he thoroughly proved the Jews to be wrong, showing them from the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ (Acts 18:28). Also, Paul reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references .. . (Acts 17:2, 3)
After that, it is up to each person to prove to themselves...

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

Consider that "a man convinced against his will...Is of the same opinion still” - Dale Carnegie
So, whether one is convinced or not, is dependent... and oftentimes on volition.
I am not trying to be convincing... just honestly presenting the truth, as I know it.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

This is a mistaken view of what Christ's death accomplished.
Our sins are covered by the sacrificial death of Jesus, in that, it allows us to gain forgiveness.
So, our past sins are blotted out, or wiped out, because they have been paid for. Any sin we commit after that, can be forgiven, on the basis of Christ's sacrificial blood.
God is the one doing the forgiving, not the blood.
We can see this from reading numerous scriptures.
If you need those scriptures,let me know, and I will give you a list.
Moreover, if no ransom was paid, no forgiveness would have taken place. Condemnation to death would be final.

Scriptures show that forgiveness is not automatic.
(Matthew 12:31, 32) 31 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

Jesus, the man, is dead... forever.
Recall, the scriptures say, God prepared a body, for his only begotten son, in order that he might taste death, for all mankind.
Apostle Paul gave an illustration that shows how that works.
(Romans 7:1-4) 1 Can it be that you do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who know law) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives? 2 For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So, then, while her husband is living, she would be called an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s. 4 So, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that you might become another’s, the one who was raised up from the dead,. . .

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

You will have to provide proof that this is true. As far as I know, this is only true to a system that holds to this view. It is not a universal truth.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

I am not a Trinitarian, so n.a.

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

As explained above, past sins have been paid for. Present sins are forgiven on the basis of the sin atoning sacrifice. However, it is God who does the forgiving, and it is dependent on God's terms.

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

The wages sin pays is death - everlasting, if God did not make a way out, by accepting the blood of atonement.
It is like a scientist saying to you, "Unless blood flows to your brain, you are dead. Blood must flow to your brain. Don't mind the suffering you face, with heart by pass, paralysis, etc."

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

I don't believe the Bible says, or teaches that Jesus was fully human and fully God. That's probably a Trinitarian question.
Jesus was human by being given life as a human. Just as God gave his first son life as a spirit... twice.
You can think of this, in the same way, a Christian sees resurrection. God is the source of life. He can give life in any form possible... a beetle; a lizard; a hippo; a human; a spirit.
So say a human you knew, died, and you went in the person's room, and saw this lizard on the bed, and went to get a net to catch it. As you are trying to catch this lizard, you keep hearing this squeaky voice going, "Jos. No. It's me, Joe."
Shocked, you stop, and stare at the lizard, as it faces you, and you see it's mouth moving, as you hear the words, "Jos, it's me, Joe."
Your jaw dropped to the floor, you ran out the room, and slammed the door, and go soak your head under the tap thinking to yourself, "That weird. I must be hallucinating."
If animal could talk, huh.
Just a little humor there, but what if instead of the lizard, you actually saw Joe, in the flesh?
All God did there, was, as the source of life, give the memories and personally of Joe, to the life to which he gives a body - whether it be a frog, or a man.

Before, God's only beginning son was spirit. Afterward, he was flesh. Then spirit again.

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

They weren't redundant , imo. Or perhaps only one was.
You are welcomed.

 

[Harel13]

if you understand the beliefs of Ancient Hebrews about magic and blood curses.

 

[Galateasdream]

This is the second time I have heard this phrase "change my mind

It's from meme culture, originally from Steven Crowder. That's all.

 

[LightofTruth]

He came to destroy sin in the flesh of His body. That work is undone when we keep on sinning. Because we bring sin back to life which He put to death. Jesus gives a fighting chance against evil.

YES! I believe you are correct.

Jesus was not a substitute for anyone. He was a representative of everyone.

 

[osgart]

Everyone is subject to change. A good fact that applies to one's sense of reason can change a mind.

To be non changeable is to perhaps forfeit reason and justification.

Life is a journey, and we are not ever in a position to be the finished product. Unless we close ourselves off. But that's like burying your head in the sand and saying there is nothing new to learn.

 

[Terry Sampson]

substationary

Won't swear to it, but I think the word you want is "substitutionary".

 

[LightofTruth]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

One of the first questions I ask those who believe in substitutionary atonement is this: "If Jesus died in my place, doesn't that mean I don't have to die?"

So, the first question which needs to be answered is, "What does it mean to die?"

If that question can be answered correctly, then all the rest falls into place.

 

[exchemist]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

I have always shared your suspicion of the scapegoat idea of the Atonement. It seems primitive and barbaric for God to demand a blood sacrifice and absurdly mechanistic to argue that a sacrifice was somehow logically required. But there have been many views of the Atonement over the centuries. The view I find the most sympathetic is that of Abelard, the "moral influence" theory. The Wiki article on Salvation includes this description of it:

"The "moral influence theory of atonement" was developed, or most notably propagated, by Abelard (1079-1142),[105][106][note 23] as an alternative to Anselm's satisfaction theory.[105] Abelard not only "rejected the idea of Jesus' death as a ransom paid to the devil",[109][106] which turned the Devil into a rival god,[106] but also objected to the idea that Jesus' death was a "debt paid to God's honor".[109] He also objected to the emphasis on God's judgment, and the idea that God changed his mind after the sinner accepted Jesus' sacrificial death, which was not easily reconcilable with the idea of "the perfect, impassible God [who] does not change".[109][110] Abelard focused on changing man's perception of God as offended, harsh, and judgemental, but as loving.[109] According to Abelard, "Jesus died as the demonstration of God's love", a demonstration which can change the hearts and minds of the sinners, turning back to God.[109][111]

During the Protestant Reformation in Western Christianity, the majority of the Reformers strongly rejected the moral influence view of the atonement in favor of penal substitution, a highly forensic modification of the honor-oriented Anselmian satisfaction model. Fausto Sozzini's Socinian arm of the Reformation maintained a belief in the moral influence view of the atonement. Socinianism was an early form of Unitarianism, and the Unitarian Church today maintains a moral influence view of the atonement, as do many liberal Protestant theologians of the modern age.[112]

During the 18th century, versions of the moral influence view found overwhelming support among German theologians, most notably the Enlightenment philosopher Immanuel Kant.[113] In the 19th and 20th century, it has been popular among liberal Protestant thinkers in the Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian churches, including the Anglican theologian Hastings Rashdall. A number of English theological works in the last hundred years have advocated and popularized the moral influence theory of atonement.[114][115]

A strong division has remained since the Reformation between liberal Protestants (who typically adopt a moral influence view) and conservative Protestants (who typically adopt a penal substitutionary view). Both sides believe that their position is taught by the Bible.[114][116][note 24]"

 

[LightofTruth]

I understand that when Jesus was born of Mary he was of the same flesh and blood as his mother, his brothers and everyone else who knew him.
He was also of the same flesh and blood as Adam when Adam became a living soul.
God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree, Adam failed. Because Adam failed we all die, It is the flesh and blood nature that must die. In other words, if Adam had resisted the temptation to eat of the tree which brought his death God might have allowed Adam to eat of the other tree which would have given him eternal life.
Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Jesus resisted all the temptations of the flesh and laid down his life as God had commanded him to do.
So, God has accepted the sacrifice of His son and whosoever believes and is baptized into him can escape the condemnation of Adam's sin.

 

[Galateasdream]

Won't swear to it, but I think the word you want is "substitutionary".

You are of course totally correct.

 

[Terry Sampson]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

You say that the more you think about substitutionary atonement the less you're convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone. That suggests to me that, previously, the less you thought about it, the more convinced you were that he could save somebody.
Seems odd to me that an Agnostic Theist would think about such things to begin with, or maybe you didn't start out as an Agnostic? an uninformed Theist, maybe. If the latter, I ask: what flavor?

 

[coconut theology]

Christians, change my mind: the more I think of substitutionary atonement, the less it makes sense.

I cannot change anyone's mind, but I can present some things which may be helpful to you, at least. Please consider this, "Theodicy" - God's Justice.

Can Jesus really save anyone?

The very name, "Jesus" means "JEHOVAH is [my] salvation./saviour":

Mat_1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.​

In the OT Hebrew, the Hebrew word (H3444) for "salvation" is "yeshua", for instance, which is part of His name, see:

Exo 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation [לי לישׁועה]: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Exo 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.​

In several places in the OT, the name used is literally (Alpha-Omega, "et") Yeshua YHVH or Jesus JEHOVAH, for instance see:

Genesis 49:18 HOT - לישׁועתך קויתי יהוה׃

Genesis 49:18 HOT Translit. - liyshûät'khä qiûiytiy y'hwäh

Exodus 14:13 HOT - ויאמר משׁה אל־העם אל־תיראו התיצבו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה אשׁר־יעשׂה לכם היום כי אשׁר ראיתם את־מצרים היום לא תספו לראתם עוד עד־עולם׃

Exodus 14:13 HOT Translit. - waYomer mosheh el-hääm al-Tiyräû hit'yatz'vû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh ásher-yaáseh läkhem haYôm Kiy ásher r'iytem et-mitz'rayim haYôm lo tošiyfû lir'otäm ôd ad-ôläm

The "et" or "את" is the Alpeh Tau, the Alpha Omega of Hebrew, the First and Last letter, the Author and Finisher.​

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT - לא לכם להלחם בזאת התיצבו עמדו וראו את־ישׁועת יהוה עמכם יהודה וירושׁלם אל־תיראו ואל־תחתו מחר צאו לפניהם ויהוה עמכם׃

2 Chronicles 20:17 HOT Translit. - lo läkhem l'hiLächëm Bäzot hit'yaTZ'vû im'dû ûr'û et-y'shûat y'hwäh iMäkhem y'hûdäh wiyrûshälaim al-Tiyr'û w'al-TëchaTû mächär tz'û lif'nëyhem wayhwäh iMäkhem

Jonah 2:9 (2:10) HOT - ואני בקול תודה אזבחה־לך אשׁר נדרתי אשׁלמה ישׁועתה ליהוה׃

Jonah 2:9 HOT Translit. - waániy B'qôl Tôdäh ez'B'chäh-Läkh' ásher nädar'Tiy áshaLëmäh y'shûätäh layhwäh š

Psalms 119:174 HOT - תאבתי לישׁועתך יהוה ותורתך שׁעשׁעי׃

Psalms 119:174 HOT Translit. - Täav'Tiy liyshûät'khä y'hwäh w'tôrät'khä shaáshuäy​

Therefore, can God save?, or is the arm of the LORD too short, having no power? In all the texts I read, the LORD is Almighty, having all power/authority.

Can Jesus save? Yes, for those who believe and do not doubt in the promise, Genesis 3:15.

The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

Turn from your thinking, unto God's thinking.

Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.​

Fallen thinking of mankind is foolishness. To doubt God's plan and/or ability to save, is to remain lost.

1) if ...

Already you sound like the first great infidel, and say "If ..." (Matthew 4:3 KJB), which is the language of the serpent, to doubt God's word, and God's mercy, justice and love. It is in effect to say, 'I do not believe you to be the person/character you claim to be, God.' It places God as the liar, and you in the place of truth. Very dangerous position to be in, for we all know that mankind (with the exception of Jesus) has lied, and thus what Paul stated is true:

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.​

Consider God's words over your own.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins ...

There is no question that this was what was done, for it is written:

1Jn_2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

The scriptures speak of the work of the "Lamb" and the work of the "Priest/High Priest":

Work of the Lamb, that the sinner might be "bought" (Outer Court of the Sanctuary):

Lev 25:51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:​

Work of the Priest/High Priest, that that which was "bought" may be "brought" back to perfection (Holy and Most Holy Places of the Sanctuary):

Lev 25:55 For unto me the children of Israel are servants; they are my servants whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:​

 

[coconut theology]

... then why must I ask for forgiveness? ...

The message of forgiveness is being preached. All are forgiven in Christ Jesus. Not all accept this. The check has been written in blood, and you must cash it in. Merely holding onto the winning lottery ticket is no good, unless you claim it and deposit it.

Act_13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:​

Yet, what sins are forgiven?

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;​

The sins which are forgiven are those sins which are "past" when (the very moment) you accept the gift. You must ask for 'forgiveness' for any sins, (if committed; 1 John 2:1), future from that moment, to have them placed under the same blood payment, but this offer does not last forever, and is limited in time (Revelation 14:6-12; Revelation 12:12; James 1:15). Yet that is not the end. Forgiven sin whether past or presently confessed, are merely "covered" by the blood, and not yet "blotted out". That part is soon to come, as seen in the final events of the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16 & 23; Daniel & Revelation).

Matthew 18, and many other places show that forgiveness can be revoked during the time of our probation on this earth if merited in God's sight.

The context of forgiveness is in the present tense, and conditional:

Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.​

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
​

The blood of Jesus is not a cloak for sin. It is to be the remedy for sin (1 John 3:4). Asking for forgiveness from that time forward, is basically asking God to forgive that you have trampled upon the gift given, Jesus. It hurts the heart of the Father to see when we sin, inspite of having taken the gift in His Son Jesus Christ. It hurts the Son, to see that we have not yet understood the gift given by the Father, and sin yet still.

Think of it like this.

[1] You (we) broke God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17), the Ten Commandments. You (we) are guilty of highest treason against the government and throne of God's love, and the wages for this is death (eternal, oblivion). Jesus then came to pay the ransom with His own (eternal life) in human flesh, to uphold justice and mercy together.

We are forgiven by the blood of Jesus from transgression against the Law of God and against God for those things which are past, before we accepted Jesus.​

[2] Jesus died, and yet you (we) have still sinned (transgressed the Law) even after we accepted the offer in the Son. It is for this that we ask forgiveness. We are God's by Creation and now also by Purchase, and therefore are not our own.​

If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

In a certain sense true, but that is not the whole story, see above. There is a difference between that which is past and that which is present.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead ...

'Hell', in that context, simply means 'the grave', and thus dead. You may see these here, for that:

Truth About Death:

Truth About Hell:

Sincerely Dead:

, whichever interpretation you hold to,

That is a misunderstanding of how scripture is interpreted. It is not how "you", "I" or "they" interpret. God's word is it's own interpreter (its own dictionary, thesaurus, etc), in other word, it is God who does the interpreting in the text itself, and our job is simply to "Amen" what is written:

Gen 40:8 And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you.

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

etc.

pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture?

Jesus was not merely man (though He was fully man; Galatians 4:4; 1 Timothy 2:5; Philippians 2:7-8, etc), but was also fully God (Person of the Son) manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16), and thus His life was not finite, but infinite, eternal as Deity (John 1:1; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:1-14, etc).

The wages of sin is not eternal torture (all who teach that, blaspheme God, whether ignorantly or knowingly). God is "long-suffering" with the wicked, not eternally suffering them. There is a "time" of torment according as the works, but the finality is death (Romans 6:23). Jesus suffered and died. He (in His humanity) would have remained dead forever, except for the fact, in Him was Life (eternal; John 1:4, 5:39; 1 John 1:2). Yet an eternal sacrifice was made, for the Son is to remain eternally a man (of the race of mankind), even though glorified. He will forever retain the scars.

If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place

Which Jesus did do, and why there are two deaths instead of the one (Genesis 3:15).