Christians - Can God be greater than himself?

[Comprehend]

Christians - If God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same individual, how can one be greater than the other?

John 14:28
28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Are they "one" or not? If they are one, how can one be greater than the other?

 

[Comprehend]

bump.

 

[SoyLeche]

I've had the answer explained to me before. It was something like, they are the same but different.

Actually, come to think of it, that wasn't a very good answer...

 

[Comprehend]

I've had the answer explained to me before. It was something like, they are the same but different.

Actually, come to think of it, that wasn't a very good answer...

LOL. yeah, I am hoping someone will want to try to explain it because I can't figure out how it is supposed to work.

 

[Mister Emu]

Philemon 2:6-8

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus, equal with God, made himself of no reputation, humbled himself...

 

[SoyLeche]

Philemon 2:6-8

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus, equal with God, made himself of no reputation, humbled himself...

God = Jesus < God

Got it

Regardless of what Jesus did, if Jesus = God then Jesus = God

"Humble Jesus" = "Humble God"

 

[Comprehend]

Philemon 2:6-8

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Jesus, equal with God, made himself of no reputation, humbled himself...

So you believe Jesus and God are different individuals?

You say that Jesus is the equal of God but then you also say Jesus made himself less than God, does that mean you believe that Jesus was then less than God and equal to God at the same time? How is that possible if they are the same person?

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

The Father (usually just called "God") Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit. Three separate entities that make up the Godhead, which is God. Three-in-one, I guess. It's really difficult to explain, and I don't think I'm doing that great of a job. So I'll shut up now.

 

[Hope]

Christians - If God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same individual, how can one be greater than the other?

John 14:28
28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Are they "one" or not? If they are one, how can one be greater than the other?

Great question. I'll have to ponder that a bit.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Christians - If God the Father and Jesus Christ are the same individual, how can one be greater than the other?

John 14:28
28 ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Are they "one" or not? If they are one, how can one be greater than the other?

"Infinity on a String" applies here. It's not really difficult to understand at all.

Edit: Nah. The prism analogy is better in this case.

 

[Aqualung]

"Infinity on a String" applies here. It's not really difficult to understand at all.

It is when you've never heard of "infinity on a string" before. Care to share with the rest of us?

 

[Comprehend]

"Infinity on a String" applies here. It's not really difficult to understand at all.

I'm interested, would you mind explaining?

 

[Rolling_Stone]

The string symbolizes the unity of Infinity. There is no "other, it is everywhere-present and transcends space and time. Now, suppose there is a knot in the string that manifests itself as the space-time universe. Is the string any less present in the knot than it is present within itself? No. The string and knot are one. The string is in the knot and the knot is in the string, but their relationship to the whole is different. While the knot and string are substantially the same, the knot is divested of those powers and characteristics that make the string a string. In this way, God can be thought of as immanent and transcendent.

But this was the wrong analogy. (see last post) A better on would be to think of the Father on the other side of a cosmic prism--the prism being will--and the Son on our side: same light as the Father and (unlike us) unpolluted by non-personal possibilities.

 

[Comprehend]

The string symbolizes the unity of Infinity. There is no "other, it is everywhere-present and transcends space and time. Now, suppose there is a knot in the string that manifests itself as the space-time universe. Is the string any less present in the knot than it is present within itself? No. The string and knot are one. The string is in the knot and the knot is in the string, but their relationship to the whole is different. While the knot and string are substantially the same, the knot is divested of those powers and characteristics that make the string a string. In this way, God can be thought of as immanent and transcendent.

But this was the wrong analogy. (see last post) A better on would be to think of the Father on the other side of a cosmic prism--the prism being will--and the Son on our side: same light as the Father and (unlike us) unpolluted by non-personal possibilities.

While that was an interesting analogy, I don't see how it attempts to answer the OP...

 

[Rolling_Stone]

Maybe this will help.

God the Father is spirit, an infinite and undifferentiated sea of possibilities. Will is intrinsic to that sea, and through the Father&#8217;s act of will, his personality is manifested in the pure light of the Son. So, when Jesus said, I and my Father are one, he meant it; and when he said the Father is greater, he meant that, too. For though Jesus is one with the Father and equal to him as a personality, he is not the totality of the Father&#8217;s infinity.

The intrinsic perfection of the Father is not improved by this act, of course, but from the human perspective, it is amplified.

 

[Comprehend]

Maybe this will help.

God the Father is spirit, an infinite and undifferentiated sea of possibilities. Will is intrinsic to that sea, and through the Father’s act of will, his personality is manifested in the pure light of the Son. So, when Jesus said, I and my Father are one, he meant it; and when he said the Father is greater, he meant that, too. For though Jesus is one with the Father and equal to him as a personality, he is not the totality of the Father’s infinity.

The intrinsic perfection of the Father is not improved by this act, of course, but from the human perspective, it is amplified.

If that were the case, then you would be saying they are not actually the same being and in no way equal.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

If that were the case, then you would be saying they are not actually the same being and in no way equal.

It's really a very simple concept. I don't understand the difficulty. (Well, yes, maybe I do.) Is the focused light from a magnfying glass different than the light from the light source, the sun? Is the knot different than the string? According to your logic, it is. The Son is the Father divested of the non-personal characteristics of total infinity.

So, when Jesus said, I and my Father are one, he meant it; and when he said the Father is greater, he meant that, too.

 

[Comprehend]

It's really a very simple concept. I don't understand the difficulty. (Well, yes, maybe I do.) Is the focused light from a magnfying glass different than the light from the light source, the sun?

oh, I understand what you are trying to say. I don't think you are understanding the problems with your explanation.

The light from a magnifying glass may or may not be different than the light from the sun. Is it the exact same light? If it is the same light, then it cannot be in two separate places at the same time nor can it be greater than itself.

Is the knot different than the string? According to your logic, it is. The Son is the Father divested of the non-personal characteristics of total infinity.

If the Son has different characteristics then he is not the same being as the father but a separate being.

Your analogies are cute but fail miserably to examine the question.

 

[Rolling_Stone]

oh, I understand what you are trying to say. I don't think you are understanding the problems with your explanation.

The light from a magnifying glass may or may not be different than the light from the sun. Is it the exact same light? If it is the same light, then it cannot be in two separate places at the same time nor can it be greater than itself.

Incorrect. Something can be in more than one place at a time--science has in fact demonstrated it. In fact, science has shown one thing being in as many as 3,000 differnt places at the same time. "A" cannot be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time, in same place and same relationship, but "A" can be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time, in the same place and in a different relationship. This is a demonstrable fact. Whether you understand it or don't believe it is irrelevant.

If the Son has different characteristics then he is not the same being as the father but a separate being.

I said nothing to even suggest that the Son has different characteristics. I said just the opposite, in fact. Does the focused light of a magnifying glass have different characteristics than the unfocused light?

Your analogies are cute but fail miserably to examine the question

There is a story that when Colombus first came to the "new world," the natives couldn't see the ships sitting in the water because they were so radically different than anything they could conceive. A medicine man couldn't accept that the strangers came from nowhere and while studying the horizon, noticed ripples on the water not behaving as would be expected. He looked and looked, and eventually saw that what he saw were the ripples playing on the hulls of strange-looking ships. It was only after he related his discovery to the other members of the tribe that they, too, could see the ships. But he had it easy--the tribe trusted him enough to take his word.

Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But studies have shown that the brain is hard-wired in such a way that it cannot perceive what it does not believe is possible.

 

[Comprehend]

Incorrect. Something can be in more than one place at a time--science has in fact demonstrated it. In fact, science has shown one thing being in as many as 3,000 differnt places at the same time. "A" cannot be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time, in same place and same relationship, but "A" can be both "A" and "not-A" at the same time, in the same place and in a different relationship. This is a demonstrable fact. Whether you understand it or don't believe it is irrelevant.

sorry, I am not questioning the science. only how you try to apply it to the question. Your analogy fails and your repeated attempts to insinuate that I don't understand it is not an argument, it is a cop-out. I clearly understand your arguments. However, they continue to fail to address the problem. You can continue to insult me if you like but it doesn't make your argument any better.

I said nothing to even suggest that the Son has different characteristics. I said just the opposite, in fact. Does the focused light of a magnifying glass have different characteristics than the unfocused light?

Being "greater" would require different characteristics.

There is a story that when Colombus first came to the "new world," the natives couldn't see the ships sitting in the water because they were so radically different than anything they could conceive. A medicine man couldn't accept that the strangers came from nowhere and while studying the horizon, noticed ripples on the water not behaving as would be expected. He looked and looked, and eventually saw that what he saw were the ripples playing on the hulls of strange-looking ships. It was only after he related his discovery to the other members of the tribe that they, too, could see the ships. But he had it easy--the tribe trusted him enough to take his word.

Whether it's true or not, I don't know. But studies have shown that the brain is hard-wired in such a way that it cannot perceive what it does not believe is possible.

Thanks, I am aware of that story too. Again, trying to imply that I do not or cannot understand is not an argument. It is a cop-out. Would you like to make an argument or continue with excuses?