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Christians: Biblical Errancy vs. Inerrancy

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by RevOxley_501, Oct 3, 2006.

  1. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    the problem here is that we don't know that it was the apostles who wrote it down. There is no clear evidence supporting apostolic authorship. and Jesus was ascended by the time Paul wrote.
     
  2. angellous_evangellous

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    Earle Ellis thinks that there is - see Paul's Use of the Old Testament and The Making of the New Testament Documents.
     
  3. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    If you believe the scriptures you would have your answere. The bible says the Holy Spirit Guided the apostles to remember every word Jesus said to them while he was on this earth (John 14:26) (John 16:13). This should be your guide as to what happened. One must have faith in the word of God (Heb.11:6). That is our evidence.
     
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  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Well, if we had the original documents as penned by the apostles, we'd be in good shape then. Unfortunately, we don't. We don't even know what happened to some of Paul's epistles.

    To be perfectly honest, it sounds to me like you're an ostrich with his head in the sand. Having faith is one thing, but being totally oblivious to the reality of the situation is another.
     
  5. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    Fulfilled Prophecies Of Christ - What Are The Odds?

    December 30, 2004 by Mike Riley - Mike Riley's Blog /thepreachersfiles.com
    In Deuteronomy 18:21-22, the text reads, "And you may say in your heart, 'How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?' When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken." (NASV).
    In the above passage of scripture, we can understand the simple criteria for determining the validity of a prophet and the trustworthiness of his message originating from the mouth of the Lord. Through a study of the scriptures, we learn that prophecies of true prophets always came to pass. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning the Messiah within the pages of scripture that have come to pass. We might ask ourselves, "what are the odds of even a small portion of these Messianic prophecies ever coming to pass (or being fulfilled)?"
    Research On Mathematical Probabilities
    In 1963, Peter Stoner, a science professor at Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California, did extensive research on the mathematical probabilities (odds) of various numbers of Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah applying to Jesus of Nazareth (Peter Stoner, Science Speaks: Scientific Proof of the Accuracy of Prophecy and the Bible, Chicago, IL: Moody Press, 1963, pg. 101-109). Upon completion of his research, he submitted his figures for review to a Committee of the American Scientific Affiliation. Upon examination, they verified that his calculations were dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific material presented. What kind of numbers did Professor Stoner's research produce? The odds of one man (Jesus or any man) fulfilling only "eight" Old Testament Messianic prophecies was one chance out of one with "seventeen" zeros after it (100,000,000,000,000,000)! To try to comprehend a number like that, Professor Stoner used the following illustration:
    Cover the entire state of Texas two feet deep in silver dollars. Choose and "mark" one silver dollar and drop it from an airplane flying somewhere over Texas. Thoroughly "stir" the silver dollars all over the state. Blindfold a person and let them travel anywhere in the state, stopping only "once" at a spot of his choice to dig into the two feet of silver dollars and pick out the "marked" one. The chance of a person being able to do that in "one" try is the same chance as one man fulfilling only "eight" Messianic prophecies. Professor Stoner concluded, "The fulfillment of these eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in ten to the seventeenth power of being absolute."
    Increasing The Messianic Prophecies
    If we were to increase the fulfillment of Messianic prophecies to only forty-eight (still far short of the total prophecies Jesus actually fulfilled), the chances of one man's fulfilling all forty-eight prophecies "jumps" to an incredible one in ten to the one hundred and fifty-seventh power. This would be "one" chance out of one with one hundred and fifty-seven zeros after it! Emil Borel, a leading authority in probability theory and author of the book, "Probabilities and Life" (1962, Dover, translated from the original, Les Probabilite et la Vie, 1943, Presses Universitaire de France), states that once we go beyond one chance in ten to the "fiftieth" power (one with fifty zeros after it), the probabilities are so small that it is impossible for one to even "think" they will ever occur.
    Conclusion
    Brethren, in reference to the fulfilled prophecies of Christ, think of the mind-boggling numbers presented above as only one evidence of God's existence, His awesome power and His authorship of the inspired scriptures (2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21). There are obviously many other "evidences" that prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) God's existence (Psalm 41:13; Psalm 106:48; Romans 1:19-20) and power (Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 40:12-31). (Psalm 10:4; Psalm 14:1; Psalm 53:1).
     
  6. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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  7. angellous_evangellous

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    This statement:

    combined with this statement:

    So a rationally thinking person would have to assume that the likelihood of the fulfillment of even some of the Old Testament prophesies could be fulfilled by any one man - "Jesus or any man" - is so unlikely that it is impossible for one to even "think" it would ever occur.

    That's what the atheists have said all along... :rolleyes: and yet you call them wicked.:eek:
     
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  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I don't have a problem with what the Bible says. I have a problem with apostolic authorship of the gospels. Maybe the apostles (to whom Jesus was speaking in John) remembered what he said. But since I think it unlikely that the apostles were the authors of the gospels, your point is moot. The remembrance of the apostles would have been handed down through Holy Tradition, which you appear to dismiss. Paul and Jesus never met while Jesus was on earth. Again, your point is moot.
     
  9. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    It was the Holy Spirit who guided them both to write all things Jesus said to the apostlses while upon the earth (John 14:26 ; 16:13).

    31. But these were written that ye might believe... (John 20 :30,31).

    If you do not accept what is written in this book (the bible),what will convince you?
     
  10. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    I think you have misunderstood the article. The point was if it did happen this is what the odds would be. Not only did it all happen, but much much more happened and it was all precise. It can all be traced back to the O.T. -- the begining of the church,time,place,the way it began,who would be flowing into it ,how Jesus would die,what he would say,what he would ride into town on,what would be done as he died,what happened to the temple,Him raising from the dead in three days,and on and on.These were all prophecied about in th O.T. and they all came true just as they were prophecied.
     
  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Neither of those scriptures are cogent to the issue of Biblical inerrancy. However, they are cogent to the issue of the authority of Holy Tradition.
     
  12. angellous_evangellous

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    The odds, obviously, can be applied to a related question: did the apostles relate several Messianic prophesies to Jesus falsely?

    We know (assuming that your data is correct) that it is foolish to even think that one man - even Jesus himself - could fulfill but a few of the OT prophesies, isn't it foolish beyond reason to take a few writings at their word?!

    I mean, you've shown that the odds are 1 in 50million that the odds are that Jesus could fulfill a few prophesies and then the same odds apply to the testimony that it actually happened.
     
  13. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    Can you prove the apostles related several Messianic prophesies to Jesus falsely? Myself I believe (John 14:26 ; 16:13) when the bible says the Holy Spirit Guided the apostles to remember everything Jesus said to the apostles while he was on earth.Then the H.S. guided them as they wrote the words in each letter.

    Agai,I think you have misunderstood the article.
     
  14. RevOxley_501

    RevOxley_501 Well-Known Member

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    here is a question i would like answered:

    can we use the book in question to prove itself?

    in other words, so what if the BIBLE says its all true---the quran says the same thing--should a verse that roughly says the scriptures are perfect be used as evidence?
     
  15. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    Hi, how are you? I wrote the person who wrote the article and asked him to explain and he wrote back with this:

    I was quoting from Emil Borel
    who made the statement you are referring to. It seems to me that Mr.
    Borel's
    belief was that the possibility of one man fulfilling forty-eight
    prophecies, mathematically speaking, would be so small that it would be
    impossible for him to fulfill all forty-eight prophecies. Other than
    that, I
    don't know what else he might have been thinking of. It certainly wouldn't
    be impossible to "think" they might occur, but impossible mathematically
    speaking.
    in love Baerly
     
  16. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    This is a powerful lesson. Its part 2, so you might have to look on the website
    "Gospel preceptor" and find lesson #1. It would be worth the search.

    Tommy J. Hicks:The Bible's Author Is Go, No. 2
    The Bible's Author Is God, No. 2 Tommy J. Hicks EDITOR'S NOTE: This is the second of a series of articles on the Authorship of the Bible. This...
    URL: http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/HicksTJ3.htm - 8k - 01 Aug 2005
     
  17. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    This lesson is from the preachersfiles.com

    The Authority of the Bible

    July 30, 2004 by Tom Moore - North Main church of Christ, Malvern, AR
    I. Introduction
    A. We are living in a time when a great many people have little or no respect for authority.
    1. Our jails are full of those who do not respect the authority of our government.
    2. We have many children in our world today who do not respect the authority of their parents
    3. And there is a host of people who do not respect the authority of the Bible
    B. We today need to recognize authority ....
    The captain on the bridge of a large naval vessel saw a light ahead on a collision course. He signaled, "Alter your course ten degrees south." The reply came back, "Alter your course ten degrees north."
    The captain then signaled, "Alter your course ten degrees south. I am a captain." The reply: "Alter your course ten degrees north. I am a seaman third-class."
    The furious captain signaled, "Alter your course ten degrees south. I am a battleship." The reply: "Alter your course ten degrees north. I am a lighthouse."
    C. If we do not recognize where true authority lies - then we will be making many wrong decisions in this life.
    II. Discussion
    A. THE INSPIRED, INERRANT WORD OF GOD EXISTS
    1. Acts 10:36 ... The word of God was sent to us through Jesus Christ
    2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ... inspired, furnishes us completely
    3. John 17:17 ... God's word is truth
    4. John 8:32 ... this truth can set us free
    5. John 17:7-8 ... what Jesus taught were the very words of God the Father
    6. The Bible is the very oracles of God (Romans 3:2)
    7. The Bible is the sword of the Spirit (Ephesians 6:17)
    8. 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 ... the Bible is the word of reconciliation
    9. The Bible is the word of righteousness (Hebrews 5:13)
    10."Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it" (Psalm 119:140) ... free of corruption, free of error
    11.God's word will ultimately judge everyone ... John 12:48
    B. THE BIBLE IS COMPLETE, UNIFIED, AND INDESTRUCTIBLE
    1. 2 Peter 1:3 ... all-sufficient
    2. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 ... completely furnishes us...
    3. James 1:25 ... those obedient to the Bible will be blessed
    4. 2 Peter 1:20-21 ... Holy men spake by the Holy Spirit
    a. Sixty-six books ... written over a period of 1600 years, by forty different men (with varying backgrounds), in three languages
    b. Yet the Bible is perfect in harmony...
    5. "For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven" (Psalm 119:89).
    6. 1 Peter 1:23-25 ... shall stand forever
    C. THE WORD OF GOD IS ...
    1. Powerful ... Hebrews 4:12-13
    2. Able to cleanse ... "Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word" (Psalm 119:9).
    3. Capable of purifying the soul ... 1 Peter 1:22
    4. Able to build one up ... Acts 20:32
    5. Perfect ... James 1:25
    6. Complete ... 2 Timothy 3:16-17
    7. Enduring ... Matthew 24:35
    D. CHRIST HAS ALL AUTHORITY AND HAS GIVEN US INSTRUCTIONS
    1. Authority was given to Jesus by the Father ...Matthew 28:18
    2. Today Christ speaks through the Bible ... Hebrews 1:1-2
    3. Christ's words are truth ... John 17:17
    4. The way of salvation is not found in man's words ... Jeremiah 10:23
    5. We must do all by the authority of Christ ... Colossians 3:17
    6. Christ's words can be understood ... Ephesians 3:3-4
    E. WE MUST FOLLOW AND KEEP THE WORD OF GOD
    1. If we love Christ we will obey Him ... John 14:15
    2. We must study to be approved of God ... 2 Timothy 2:15
    3. We must remember God's word ... 2 Peter 3:2
    4. Hold forth the word of life ... Philippians 2:16
    5. Hold to sound words ... 2 Timothy 1:13
    6. Continue in God's word ... 2 Timothy 3:14
    7. Preach the word ... 2 Timothy 4:2
    8. Standfast for God's word ... 2 Thessalonians 2:15
    9. Be an example in the word ... 1 Timothy 4:12
    10.Contend earnestly for the faith ... Jude 3
    F. WE MUST HANDLE GOD'S WORD ARIGHT
    1. Handle God's word in the right way ... 2 Corinthians 4:2
    2. Study to be able to handle God word in the right way ... 2 Timothy 2:15
    3. Do not hear only ... James 1:22
    4. Do not be led astray ... 2 Peter 2:1; 3:9
    5. Do not be deceived ... Ephesians 5:6-10
    G. GOD WARNS US NOT TO HANDLE HIS WORD IN THE WRONG WAY
    1. Do not add to or take away from the word of God ...
    a. Deuteronomy 4:2
    b. Proverbs 30:5-6
    c. Revelation 22:18-19
    2. Do not pervert the Gospel ... Galatians 1:6-10
    3. We are not to be unskilled in God's word ... Hebrews 5:12
    4. We must be knowledgeable ... Romans 10:2-3
    5. We must not be disobedient ... Hebrews 2:1-3
    6. The Bible will judge us ... John 12:48
    III. Conclusion
    A. We must respect authority, and most importantly we must respect God's authority.
    B. We truly respect the word of God, we will:
    1. Study it
    2. Love it
    3. Obey it
    C. If we do not respect God's authority we will not go to heaven
     
  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I have absolutely no inclination to plow through every verse you listed in your post, Baerly, but somehow I knew, before I even scanned your list, that you'd come up with this one:

    "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of Godmay be competent, equipped for every good work."

    Nowhere in these verses do I see either the word "complete," a synonym for "complete" or a description of something that is "complete."

    But since you are obviously reading it differently than I am, would you mind telling me where I can find the book of Jasher? How about the book of Samuel the seer? What about the book of Jehu? I'd be interested in reading Paul's epistle to the Laodiceans and Jude's other epistle. Would you be so kind as to direct me to them?
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Even if the Apostles did remember everything Jesus told them, they didn't record it all. John 21:25 states, "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

    Perhaps you think that the majority of the things Jesus said and did were not important enough for them to have written down, and that they did record everything He said that mattered. Look at the length of the four gospel accounts of His life. Do you honestly believe that everything He said or did that mattered was recorded? He must have wasted a lot of time, if that's the case!
     
  20. Baerly

    Baerly Active Member

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    I can only direct you to those books God seen fit to put within the bible. Sorry

    I believe what (2Peter 1:3) and (Jude 3) says about the bible.

    For those who do not think the bible is complete (or perfect) I would direct you to (Mt.22:29) which says you do err, not knowing the scriptures ,nor the power of God.

    in love Baerly
     
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