Christians and truth

[Lintu]

I felt compelled to go out and buy a Bible (I'd given mine away years earlier) and start reading and it just felt right.

I suppose this is just repeating what I've already said, but I had a similar experience with Judaism. Are you really going to tell me that I'm delusional, or that I have demons speaking to me, and not G-d? Who is to say that you're right and I'm wrong? It could just as easily be the opposite. I have belief that this is the best way for me to relate to G-d, and I don't need to say that everyone else's beliefs are invalid to feel that way.

It's fine to believe that your way is the true way, but to say that other people's beliefs aren't even valid...that doesn't make sense to me. There is a difference between absolute truth and validity. My religious beliefs are just as valid as yours, even though only one of us (or neither of us) may be right in terms of absolute truth.

 

[SoulTYPE]

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

.

So therefore since God may/may not have said that, it is definitly true?

 

[SoulTYPE]

It's fine to believe that your way is the true way, but to say that other people's beliefs aren't even valid...that doesn't make sense to me. .

FRUBALS.

 

[No*s]

Actually No*s that was pretty broad and explanitive. thanks;.

Welcome

 

[No*s]

Jensa,
The beliefs of some religions allow for the possibility that their way is not the only way to God. Christianity is very specific and allows no room for any other possibility:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

There is no room for compromise.

No, it isn't that specific. There were two distinct flavors of Church Fathers (including their respective interpretations of the canon of Scriptures they used). One damned everyone who wasn't a Christian (which would include any Christian who wasn't a Catholic), and the others would say that there is some degree of hope, however small (and they were harsher to Christians outside the Church).

If you hold a pen-sub view that must be accepted for salvation, then I can understand why you take John 14.6 this way. However, not all Christians hold to substitutionary atonement as the primary analogy for salvation. I do not.

I once heard this analogy on the Orthodox-Convert mailing list. In life, we are stranded via a shipwreck far away from shore in cold and stormy waters. There is a rescue ship (the Church) that Christ ordained as His means to save people. They can get on board and be relatively certain of their safety there, or they can continue to drift on the drift-wood. Those on the driftwood may make it to shore. Who can say? But if I were there, I'd bet on the ship.

So it is with salvation. We cannot judge any person's eternal fate. All we can do is say, "Here is sure salvation in the midst of the stormy sea." After all, Christ commanded us not to judge.

It is also true that you get more people to listen if you speak in this way, and you will learn more from them, because it fosters dialogue. It may not convert as many people, but the conversions are more meaningful and the friendships with non-Christians more profound.

 

[Melody]

I suppose this is just repeating what I've already said, but I had a similar experience with Judaism. Are you really going to tell me that I'm delusional, or that I have demons speaking to me, and not G-d? Who is to say that you're right and I'm wrong?

It is not for me to judge you. I merely stated my beliefs and that they do not provide room to believe that any other way works. If a Christian does believe this, I'd be mightily interested to hear how they get around the "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light and no one comes to the Father but through Me."

This is not about right or wrong. It's about living your beliefs...walking the walk. If your belief system says there is only one way, then how can you possibly say there are other ways? I am not familiar with Judaism, but does it accept that there are many paths to God such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc.? My exposure to Judaism (limited admittedly) led me to believe that they felt Judaism was the only way and that Christians worshipped a false god by believing Jesus was the Messiah. Perhaps I gained the wrong impression?

 

[Jaymes]

Jensa,
The beliefs of some religions allow for the possibility that their way is not the only way to God. Christianity is very specific and allows no room for any other possibility:

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

There is no room for compromise.

And that's what I just can't understand. How can someone get around the fact that absolutely nobody on the planet knows with 100% certainty what happens when they die? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[Melody]

And that's what I just can't understand. How can someone get around the fact that absolutely nobody on the planet knows with 100% certainty what happens when they die? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Faith

 

[Melody]

Sorry....I was playing with the quotes and hit submit instead of preview.

Faith says I am 100% certain. If I weren't, then I wouldn't be a believer. I cannot explain it better than that.

 

[SoulTYPE]

Faith says I am 100% certain. If I weren't, then I wouldn't be a believer. I cannot explain it better than that.

So because you are a believer in something makes it true and correct? If I believed that God was an anime girl, would that mean it is true?..

(Wait I can't use that example, I am comparing God to a cartoon, and I would not wish to offend YOU)

And does YOUR faith also mean that what you believe in is the only way?

 

[Melody]

So because you are a believer in something makes it true and correct? If I believed that God was an anime girl, would that mean it is true?..

(Wait I can't use that example, I am comparing God to a cartoon, and I would not wish to offend YOU)

And does YOUR faith also mean that what you believe in is the only way?

We can go round and round all day. I've already responded to this. It's your perogative to disagree with me but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

And btw....the anime reference wasn't offensive. The sarcastic comment that followed was, but if that's how you choose to communicate I can deal with it. Should I read into this that you're offended by the fact that I believe that Jesus is the only way? Why is this a problem? I'm not requiring that you believe it. If you want to believe that God is an anime girl, that is your perogative. Must I believe you're right? Don't think so....anymore than you need to believe that I'm right.

 

[SoulTYPE]

We can go round and round all day. I've already responded to this. It's your perogative to disagree with me but it doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, but merely asking for more input.

The sarcastic comment that followed was, but if that's how you choose to communicate

I never meant any hassle. But if that is how you choose to respond.

Should I read into this that you're offended by the fact that I believe that Jesus is the only way? Why is this a problem?

No you shouldn't. I don't worry what you believe..I was merely asking why is this believed to be true.

If you want to believe that God is an anime girl,

I don't. It was a far out example.

If you wish to debate OUR arguments, this is preferably done by PM.

 

[Melody]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, but merely asking for more input.


I never meant any hassle. But if that is how you choose to respond.


No you shouldn't. I don't worry what you believe..I was merely asking why is this believed to be true.


I don't. It was a far out example.

If you wish to debate OUR arguments, this is preferably done by PM.

My apologies then for assuming that you were being sarcastic.

I do not know if it is possible to debate "why" I believe this way is the only way except to say that there is something inside of me that says "this is right". I've explored many religions and belief systems over the last 30 years but none fulfilled me as this way does. Not much room for debate

 

[SoulTYPE]

I've explored many religions and belief systems over the last 30 years but none fulfilled me as this way does. Not much room for debate

Very good THAT was an answer I was seeking. And I am not debating, but merely interested.

Melody, I do NOT dislike you btw. I cannot coin you, but you have earned my frubal donation for a very accurate type answer.

 

[Melody]

Very good THAT was an answer I was seeking. And I am not debating, but merely interested.

Melody, I do NOT dislike you btw. I cannot coin you, but you have earned my frubal donation for a very accurate type answer.

I'm gradually getting used to the people on here and I never thought you disliked me. I grew up in an extended family where if you disagreed with a person, they took it as a personal attack on their character. My husband grew up on a family that "thrives" on debate and they don't take it personally. It took me awhile to feel "safe" debating with others, but I think I'm there....with a few lapses


Melody

Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...,
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
---Joshua 24:15

 

[SoulTYPE]

I grew up in an extended family where if you disagreed with a person, they took it as a personal attack on their character.

LOL, you sure I wasn't in that family..? Sounds like how I used to be, ask any moderator here. But they taught me not to be so paranoid.

R.I.P E-A.

hahaha

 

[Melody]

No, it isn't that specific. There were two distinct flavors of Church Fathers (including their respective interpretations of the canon of Scriptures they used). One damned everyone who wasn't a Christian (which would include any Christian who wasn't a Catholic), and the others would say that there is some degree of hope, however small (and they were harsher to Christians outside the Church).

These are religious differences, not scriptural differences. The Bible is very clear that Jesus is the one, true way...so if someone says they believe the Bible is the Word of God then there is no room for compromise.

If you hold a pen-sub view that must be accepted for salvation, then I can understand why you take John 14.6 this way. However, not all Christians hold to substitutionary atonement as the primary analogy for salvation. I do not.

How do you get past the scripture...or perhaps I should be asking, how you are interpreting the scripture that says "No one gets to the Father except through Me."

So it is with salvation. We cannot judge any person's eternal fate. All we can do is say, "Here is sure salvation in the midst of the stormy sea." After all, Christ commanded us not to judge.

So let me understand, you're saying that as a Christian you believe Christian is the "sure way" to God but maybe there are other possibilites? Again, how do you justify this with scripture that says Jesus is the one true way? If I choose to paint my wall green instead of white, I've just made a judgment about which I prefer, but I have not said "green is good and white is bad." So it is with people who choose another belief system. I have said that I believe Jesus is the only true way, but I have not said you are a bad person for not believing that way. I just said I disagree with you.

It is also true that you get more people to listen if you speak in this way, and you will learn more from them, because it fosters dialogue. It may not convert as many people, but the conversions are more meaningful and the friendships with non-Christians more profound.

Possibly, but there's that boat again. Maybe you will and then again maybe someone will discount what you say because they feel you do not seem to be committed to your beliefs. You've lost me here. You're saying that I should go against everything I believe in and compromise those beliefs in order to convert people and have deeper relationships with non-Christians? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

People may not like what I hear. They may not agree with it. That's their choice but I cannot pacify them with the thought that I believe their way may also be correct since I believe Scripture is clear on this point.

Melody


Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...,
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
---Joshua 24:15

 

[Lintu]

Melody:
Can you accept that other people's beliefs, while they may not be true in your mind, are equally valid ways of understanding the world and the divine?

 

[Melody]

Melody:
Can you accept that other people's beliefs, while they may not be true in your mind, are equally valid ways of understanding the world and the divine?

Define valid. I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Melody


Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve...,
But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
---Joshua 24:15

 

[No*s]

These are religious differences, not scriptural differences. The Bible is very clear that Jesus is the one, true way...so if someone says they believe the Bible is the Word of God then there is no room for compromise.

I never said that Jesus wasn't the sole path. I just do not accept a pen-sub view of Christ.

How do you get past the scripture...or perhaps I should be asking, how you are interpreting the scripture that says "No one gets to the Father except through Me."

By pointing out that a pagan king in Is. 45 is God's christ, that Abram accepted the blessings of the King of Salem, and this same King of Salem is later an image of Christ, that God assumed the name "El" which is also the name of the father of Baal, that God sent prophets to peoples besides the Children of Israel, Paul quoted a pagan poet to explain God (compare this with the Church Fathers' assertion that the pagans perceived God dimly), and that the "invisible attributes of God" are plainly revealed in creation as Paul taught in Romans. Those are just some of the references that I can think of off the top of my head.

However, these types of things aren't the problem. I'm willing to bet that we believe in two very different teachings of salvation, and I'll start a thread on what I believe the Christ's work was soon enough.

So let me understand, you're saying that as a Christian you believe Christian is the "sure way" to God but maybe there are other possibilites? Again, how do you justify this with scripture that says Jesus is the one true way? If I choose to paint my wall green instead of white, I've just made a judgment about which I prefer, but I have not said "green is good and white is bad." So it is with people who choose another belief system. I have said that I believe Jesus is the only true way, but I have not said you are a bad person for not believing that way. I just said I disagree with you.

I don't see a need to harmonize it. I'll make clear what I mean soon enough (explaining that is beyond the scope of this thread). Suppose Jesus did not come here to make it possible for God to forgive sins; God forgives freely. Rather I believe He came to reunite God and man. Now, in that system, the rules are just a little different. That's what I believe, and I believe it to be very biblical.

Possibly, but there's that boat again. Maybe you will and then again maybe someone will discount what you say because they feel you do not seem to be committed to your beliefs. You've lost me here. You're saying that I should go against everything I believe in and compromise those beliefs in order to convert people and have deeper relationships with non-Christians? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding.

I doubt that anyone would assert that I'm not comitted. I've been accused of many, many things, but that's not one of them. Whether people think I'm committed or not has nothing to do with what I say on this issue. It has to do, almost solely, with how I live and how I treat people. That's the real test. No matter how much I preach turn or burn, if they don't see a godly lifestyle, then they'll assume I'm not committed. The same works in reverse.

As for compromising your "beliefs, in order to convert people and have a deeper relationship with non-Christians," you are certainly misunderstanding me. As I said, a thread on salvation is forthcoming.

People may not like what I hear. They may not agree with it. That's their choice but I cannot pacify them with the thought that I believe their way may also be correct since I believe Scripture is clear on this point.

I never said that I believed other people's ways are correct, nor did I say all religions are valid. I simply asserted that we restrain all judgements about people's eternal fates. If the local Buddhist is standing on the other side with me, I'll not be complaining that God wasn't exclusive enough according to my interpretation of Scripture.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention. I'm an Orthodox Christian. Christ's way is the way of the Church, and anything outside of it is outside the Body of Christ. I firmly believe that the Orthodox Church is the New Testament Church. How do you suppose you'd feel if I told you that you weren't really a Christian, and that you're going to Hell if you don't become Orthodox? That's not my call to make; I can only assert where Christ is, I normally cannot say where He is not very well.