Samael_Khan
Goosebender
All I am saying is that it is a plus. Otherwise it might be like sitting on the iron throne. And if God exists, I thanks him very much for making something so mundane and disgusting feel so good.
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Christians And Sodomy
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
All I am saying is that it is a plus. Otherwise it might be like sitting on the iron throne. And if God exists, I thanks him very much for making something so mundane and disgusting feel so good.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Where is it said that every man must multiply? If that were true god would have not seen fit to allow homosexual orientation to arise at all, but to make sure heterosexual orientation was as common as noses and ears. He would also have seen fit that no man is born sterile or female infertile. Nope, if god is responsible for creating heterosexuals he's also responsible for creating homosexuals. Sexual orientation is not something we choose.
Interesting. What verse is that? My Bibles mention no such thing.
And even among those who do believe in god, there are a lot who practice anal sex and fail to see any moral issue that would disallow it. My homosexual neighbors down the block are two such church goers.
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Samael_Khan
Goosebender
It doesn't say that every man must multiply explicitly. In Genesis 2:26 he tells man and woman to go forth and multiply. This is one of the base commandments that he gives Adam and Eve before they sin. Some understand this to mean that this was his original intent for humanity and why he sees homosexuality as wrong. After the fall new laws came into place to achieve his ends.
The rest of what you say depends on how one views how sin affects man. The very fact that man was allowed to sin, which is to go against what God intended, means that just because something happens in our world does not mean that that is what God wants to happen. Hence free will. Sickness and death were brought into the world because of man's sin, not because he sees it as good, that is why in Revelation 21:4 he says that there will be no more death, pain and suffering. The end result is what he wants to achieve. Therefore when humans are sterile, it is a result of a fallen, imperfect world. It is the same as a person who suffers from sickness.
Sexuality is more complicated than what you say it is. Obviously there are hermaphrodites, which is seen as akin to a deformity. Regarding homosexuality, one could be born that way, be that way as a result of abuse, or choose it because of exploration. For instance I know a girl who says she became homosexual because she had bad experiences with men. She didn't bother with women before that. So she clearly chose it. I believe sexuality to be a very complicated thing. It is biological, psychological or both. Sexual preference even has an escalation aspect to it, such as is seen with porn watchers.
The verse:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error," (Rom. 1:26-27, NASB).
Homosexuality, therefore, is said to be a degrading passion. If it is an indecent act and an error then it is bad morally.
Just because someone goes to church does not mean that they are actually following what the bible says. They might not see anything morally wrong with what they are doing, but that doesn't mean that they are in line with what the bible says.
I actually think that the bible never considers homosexuality as anything but something that one chooses. I am speaking objectively as I can here. I am not saying that the bible is right, but I am trying to be true to what it actually says. So if you can dispute my conclusions with biblical verses then go ahead. The truth will set me free
Skwim
Veteran Member
Yes, it was Adam and Eve he said this to; not mankind in general. And I believe it's in Gen. 1:28. There is no Genesis 2:26.
No doubt at all that some do understand it this way.
"Allowed"? Given the sinful nature god saddled man with sinning is inevitable. It's nothing man chooses to do, but cannot help but do, thanks to god.
No "hence free will" at all. Free will is nothing but a concept mandated by Christian theology so as to make sin/salvation ring true. Sin/salvation demands that one accept free will, but that certainly doesn't make it valid.
Not "man's" sin, but the misdeeds of two (2) people. Two, count 'em, two people mess up and for thousands of years since everyone suffers for it. And people call god "Just." Give me a break.
Yet because they can't be held liable for not bringing babies into the world, god still feels they don't deserve the pleasure of homosexual sex. (having babies being the reason you give for god not accepting homosexual sex) Nice guy this god of yours.
I wasn't aware I said any such thing. Please quote me.
Okay. Ask your heterosexual friends when it was they chose to be heterosexual. Do you remember when you made the choice: "Hmmm . . . Let's see. It was on a Friday night and I remember mulling it over and writing down the pros and cons of . . . ." Yeah, sure.
Yup. There's no doubt god despises homosexual sex. That's not in question. What is in question is the rationality behind it. He puts all these highly pleasing, sensitive nerve fibers in the anuses of males and females and then expects that they never be excited. It's like putting candy in front of a baby, and if the kid takes any you slap the **** out of him.
Of course it doesn't. How else can one be guilty of a sin unless there's choosing behind it? It's why free will is crucial to Christian theology. Take away free will and Christianity crumbles. Hence the fight to keep any consideration of determinism out of the picture and keep free will flying tall and strong, despite its utter failure as a reasonable concept.
I hope it does.I am speaking objectively as I can here. I am not saying that the bible is right, but I am trying to be true to what it actually says. So if you can dispute my conclusions with biblical verses then go ahead. The truth will set me free
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tigrers2019
Member
The question of the OP can be answered by objectively studying the philosophy of the Creation of our universe.
The totality of all ancient religious information and the philosophy of the evolution, helps to answer to the question.
That being that the universe was created by God through implementation. Time, matter, physics, from God given to His subjects to create something very special. That they did, and through the use of the Evolutionary process, brought life about and sustained it through monstrous means. Like so much of our world and the rest of the universe, from a distance looks so beautiful and inviting, but the closer one gets, the more dangerous it becomes.
Our instincts were a part of the Evolutionary process which was not in God's plan for us. His solution was to destroy the universe that is contrary to His nature. However, from the religious information that we have, one of the beings in the Godhead (the New Testament calls the Son) prevented our destruction. Everything was left in place except He made a way for those who wished to be in God's family to have the opportunity to do so despite our being flawed with these instincts and mental interferences from those who were responsible for this flawed creation.
The totality of all ancient religious information and the philosophy of the evolution, helps to answer to the question.
That being that the universe was created by God through implementation. Time, matter, physics, from God given to His subjects to create something very special. That they did, and through the use of the Evolutionary process, brought life about and sustained it through monstrous means. Like so much of our world and the rest of the universe, from a distance looks so beautiful and inviting, but the closer one gets, the more dangerous it becomes.
Our instincts were a part of the Evolutionary process which was not in God's plan for us. His solution was to destroy the universe that is contrary to His nature. However, from the religious information that we have, one of the beings in the Godhead (the New Testament calls the Son) prevented our destruction. Everything was left in place except He made a way for those who wished to be in God's family to have the opportunity to do so despite our being flawed with these instincts and mental interferences from those who were responsible for this flawed creation.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Is this really your answer to my question?
"Why would god put such an abundance of pleasure-producing nerve endings in the anus unless he intended them to be stimulated, and in turn provide sexual gratification?"
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Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Yes, it was Adam and Eve he said this to; not mankind in general. And I believe it's in Gen. 1:28. There is no Genesis 2:26.
Thanks for the correction. My bad.
No doubt at all that some do understand it this way.
"Allowed"? Given the sinful nature god saddled man with sinning is inevitable. It's nothing man chooses to do, but cannot help but do, thanks to god.
Considering that all sin is is disobedience to God's law, it is only one's nature if one is prone to disobedience. If God created man with a sinful nature, then why didn't man sin before the Serpent interfered? The Bible's narrative seems to imply that in only happened after they ate from the wrong tree. And then gradually man became more and more sinful. The Bible actually doesn't explain the mechanics of it.
No "hence free will" at all. Free will is nothing but a concept mandated by Christian theology so as to make sin/salvation ring true. Sin/salvation demands that one accept free will, but that certainly doesn't make it valid.
I agree with you. Free will isn't valid because the Bible says so. It is valid because the reality of life is that we make choices all the time. Some say our "choices" are just natural conclusions and consequences of what our environment shaped us to do. There is a lot of truth to this, but because we cannot measure this as one can only see the results of the choice, I don't consider it much. If there is no free will, then there is no good and bad, and, in my mind, nobody can be punished for bad things they have done. So then we cannot hold Hitler responsible for what he did because he was just a product of his environment. Do you believe that Free will is valid?
Not "man's" sin, but the misdeeds of two (2) people. Two, count 'em, two people mess up and for thousands of years since everyone suffers for it. And people call god "Just." Give me a break.
If God is creator, and because of two people the rest of mankind become disobedient to him, that means that mankind is not achieving what he intended for them to achieve as a creation. He has three choices: 1) Let them be as is. 2) Destroy them. 3) Fix them. View mankind as as a machine and God as a man. If we make a machine for a specific intent and it becomes faulty then we would rather not let it be. We would try and fix it. If it cannot be fixed we scrap it. Maybe even find a replacement. The Bibles narrative is that God cannot accept 1. At the moment he is practicing 3, trying to fix us. Eventually he will destroy those of us who are irredeemable, then practicing option 2. What is unjust is torturing the the irredeemable in hell. That is just sadistic.
Yet because they can't be held liable for not bringing babies into the world, god still feels they don't deserve the pleasure of homosexual sex. (having babies being the reason you give for god not accepting homosexual sex) Nice guy this god of yours.
He is the creator. He can do what he wants. Whether we think he is nice for doing it or not.
I wasn't aware I said any such thing. Please quote me.
I regarded your viewpoint that sexuality isn't something we choose as very simplistic.
Okay. Ask your heterosexual friends when it was they chose to be heterosexual. Do you remember when you made the choice: "Hmmm . . . Let's see. It was on a Friday night and I remember mulling it over and writing down the pros and cons of . . . ." Yeah, sure.
I did ask a homosexual friend whether their sexuality was a choice. As I stated earlier. And they said yes. Whether heterosexuals don't make a choice does not mean that a homosexual might have made a choice. If I don't find a heterosexual who made a choice to be heterosexual all, objectively that means as far as I can tell, heterosexuals don't have a choice, whereas as at least one homosexual I know had a choice.
Yup. There's no doubt god despises homosexual sex. That's not in question. What is in question is the rationality behind it. He puts all these highly pleasing, sensitive nerve fibers in the anuses of males and females and then expects that they never be excited. It's like putting candy in front of a baby, and if the kid takes any you slap the **** out of him.
Actually, he condemns only homosexual acts. As far as I can tell, he doesn't necessarily condemn anal sex between male and female. It that sphere one might be able to embrace anal sex. But that depends on what "natural use" means.
Of course it doesn't. How else can one be guilty of a sin unless there's choosing behind it? It's why free will is crucial to Christian theology. Take away free will and Christianity crumbles. Hence the fight to keep any consideration of determinism out of the picture and keep free will flying tall and strong, despite its utter failure as a reasonable concept.
If free will doesn't exist then we are just automatons pretty much. Some churches do believe in predestination though. Maybe we actually don't have free will and God is just messing with us? Maybe we are actually NPC's in a video game?
I hope it does.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
I never said he created man with a sinful nature. I said, "Given the sinful nature god saddled man with . . . . " Alluding to the apple incident.Israel Khan said:
And I simply disagree. Choice and choosing are illusions.
Well, there is good and bad chow mein to consider. And punishment can work as a deterrent, causing someone not to do bad things in the future.
He, like everyone else, is a product of all the causal factors that inevitably led him to his actions.
No I don't. I'm a hard determinist.
I'll take door 3 for the win, Alex. How about rescinding the ghastly curse he laid on mankind.
Thing is, if your analogy is to run true to form it would be us who purposely made the machine faulty.
Agreed, it is sadistic.
And to think that we have better ethics than ol' god. Who would have thought.
I honestly don't remember saying that.
From what I've read of sexual orientation, it's extremely rare that a "true" heterosexual will opt to be homosexual for any conscious reason. More likely they will have been bisexual, or will have at least already sat a ways away from the heterosexual end of the spectrum.
Agreed.
Yup. Not a pretty thought, but pretending free will exists to avoid it is hardly admirable. Just saying.
As an agnostic that doesn't sound any less plausible than the god of Abraham.
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Samael_Khan
Goosebender
Zita
Solitary Eclectic Witch
If you knew anything about anal sex you'd know that there is no "just slips in." But I appreciate your attempt at bragging.
.[/QUOA women's vagina is right there in front of the anus hole, "trust me" sometimes it slips in!!
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
If it just slipped in, doesnt that mean that something is very small? No bragging there I think.
Zita
Solitary Eclectic Witch
oops!! you are mistaken, very much mistaken; I am a female and I know for a fact because of close relation of the vagina and anus, It can" just slip in," especially is the women is flexible and if anal sex is not uncomfortable or doesn't hurt her it can easily happen as a matter of fact the penis can be in the anus without either knowing it for a minute or two.
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
oops!! you are mistaken, very much mistaken; I am a female and I know for a fact because of close relation of the vagina and anus, It can" just slip in," especially is the women is flexible and if anal sex is not uncomfortable or doesn't hurt her it can easily happen as a matter of fact the penis can be in the anus without either knowing it for a minute or two.
Wow.... a lot of information there hey....
I am way too innocent to bear such knowledge.
Zita
Solitary Eclectic Witch
oh no
Nope it doesn't mean that at all,you'd be surprised how wide that thang can open to accommodate the size of the man,women's body are amazing!!
Samael_Khan
Goosebender
oh no
Nope it doesn't mean that at all,you'd be surprised how wide that thang can open to accommodate the size of the man,women's body are amazing!!
I would definitely be surprised. Haha!!!
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
I'm a Latter-day Saint, otherwise known as "Mormon" or "LDS Christian"...
Please bear with the somewhat lengthy introduction here. It's quite relevant to my concluding thoughts. Thanks.
In looking up the Christian position on anal sex I came across the Catholic stance:
Is anal sex ok between a married Christian couple as foreplay?
And the Protestant stance."5) Bible forbids anal sex
Nowhere in the Bible does it say anal sex is OK, on the other hand Romans 1:24-27 says:
“women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women…”Scripture is clearly saying women cannot have “back door” sex. The Bible doesn’t say “it’s only sex if there is a climax.” Using that excuse is kind of like Bill Clinton saying “I didn’t have sex with that woman.”
source
So why have I brought up the subject?Is Anal Sex A Sin?
"Many believers wonder can Christians have anal sex?
While it is true Christian couples don’t have a sex limit on what they can and can’t do in regard to sex positions and oral sex. Sex is the male’s penis into a female’s vagina. Anal sex is penis to anus, which is sodomy. You might say, “how about if it’s between husband and wife,” but God didn’t intend men to put their penis inside an anus period.
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
Can I have anal sex outside of marriage instead of having sex?
No, nothing can be used as a substitute. Sexual immorality is a sin.
Sodomy is anal sex! Its name comes from Sodom and Gomorrah where God destroyed the city because of the homosexuality that was going on there. The anus was not designed for sex, neither is it safe to practice. Even though the Bible doesn’t discuss anal sex between a married couple, from what the Bible does tell us you can see that God intended for the penis to go inside the vagina not the anus. Married couples shouldn’t be having anal sex. We must not take away God’s natural way of doing things.
source
Well, in another thread the fact was brought up that "there are sexually responsive nerve endings located in the anus." I was unaware of this, but informed of the fact I started looking into it and found:
and"The abundance of nerve endings in the anal region and rectum can make anal sex pleasurable for men or women. The internal and external sphincter muscles control the opening and closing of the anus; these muscles, which are sensitive membranes made up of many nerve endings, facilitate pleasure or pain during anal sex.
The anal sphincters are usually tighter than the pelvic muscles of the vagina, which can enhance the sexual pleasure for the inserting male during male-to-female anal intercourse because of the pressure applied to the penis.
Source: Wikipedia
Wow, who would have thought! I didn't.
"The anus is part of both the male and female sexual system. The external anal sphincter is one of the most sensitive parts of the human body, with one of the densest concentrations of nerve endings. You can get a lot of pleasure out of external anal stimulation without ever going inside."
source
So, my question is: Why would god put such an abundance of pleasure-producing nerve endings in the anus unless he intended them to be stimulated, and in turn provide sexual gratification?
I don't necessarily expect a good scientific or theological answer, but would like the reasonable Christian here to evaluate their religion's position on it, particularly in light gay anal sex. If god thinks gay anal sex is sinful, why put all these pleasurable nerve endings in the male anus? Likewise, putting them in a female anus would seem to invite male-female anal sex.
Seems to me something in Christian theology has gone very much awry. My suspicion is that it's a prejudice that arose out of simple revulsion among heterosexuals toward anal sex .
Your thoughts.
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My understanding has been that God forbids any sexual activity among His children unless they are a man and woman who are legally and lawfully wedded.
That's it.
So, no heterosexual relations before marriage or outside of marriage and obviously no homosexual relations because, according to God, homosexuals cannot get married.
I am unaware of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claiming that there are any limitations to the sexual exploits of a married couple, outside of any illegal activity of course.
I could be wrong though. I just haven't seen anything like that myself.
So, it is my opinion, that anything goes sexually between a man and a woman as long as they are married and no one is being unwillingly violated, abused or doing anything illegal.
Skwim
Veteran Member
But the Bible never says homosexuals can't marry. Just because I say you can eat apples from my apple tree doesn't mean your cousin Ralph can't eat apples from it.
From the Bible verses I'm aware of concerning marriage, god is only talking about what a man and woman can/should do. There's nothing that excludes homosexuals from doing the same.
I assume you're referring to oral sex, anal sex, BD, S&M, and water sports, which, again, the Bible does not say are verboten.
And that's a good and sane opinion.
/
Prestor John
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that my beliefs should be restricted to only what the Bible records.
I opened my post with the declaration that I am a Latter-day Saint, which, in case you didn't know, allows me to reference three other books of scripture outside the Bible as well as the teachings of modern-day prophets and apostles.
The official declaration titled "The Family: A Proclamation to the World", the First Presidency and Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stated the following,
"We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."
"Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan."
"WE WARN that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. "
You can read it in full here: The Family: A Proclamation to the World
So, I am of the opinion that everything is "fair play" as long as the couple participating is a man and woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife and that no one is doing anything illegal or being unwillingly violated or abused.
That being said, anyone can do whatever they want with whoever they want, I don't care.
Just don't get upset when you ask for my opinion about what should or should not be done behind closed doors.
You be you and I'll keep on being me.
tigrers2019
Member
We humans were never intended to have animal instincts that prevent us from becoming what God intended. Many have asked that since God has the power of foreknowledge then why didn't He stop those responsible for this happening? The answer is that He chose not to know. The same as with His children's sins.
By the way, SODOMY was not known in the scriptures until about a thousand years ago.
Fornication was known in the 1st century as engaging in pagan worship practice which involved physical sex with the priest and or priestess. It cannot be used today as a 'catch-all' word for looking at the Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover, watching of R rated movies, etc, etc.