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Christians and Good Works

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Jun 14, 2021.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    some christian's believe that works won't get you to heaven; so why then idolize jesus, or worship him?
     
  2. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    John 5:36 36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

    It is a conundrum is is not?
     
  3. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Heaven cannot be earned by our own merit, so works alone is not enough, but faith at the root of good works.
     
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  4. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    James 2:14-17
    What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    As Jeremiah Ames said, It's a conundrum...
     
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  5. Sirona

    Sirona Hindu Wannabe

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    I know that belief in "sola fide" versus the need for good works is weighted differently in different Christian denominations, and I'm not a Christian anymore anyway, but I would liken it a bit to being in love. If one is truly in love, one will be willing to do anything for the beloved without considering it as a burden. I think that, in contrast, works done "without love" have an aspect of atonement, reparation, and "making up for it." The Koran says that one should feed 10 poor people for atonement. Or 10 Hail Marys are imposed on one as penance after confession. In Vishnuism, all kinds of good deeds can be weighed up against bad ones on a "karma account" (karma-yoga). However, this does not apply if one performs the deeds as a sacrifice out of devotion to Vishnu (bhakti-yoga). True love is only interested in the beloved and does not seek its own benefit.
     
  6. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    It may be that James is correcting a misunderstanding of Paul's formula. Or that Paul was arguing that observance of ritual works prescribed by the Mosaic Law would not justify the Gentiles.
    While its always been a bone of contention between Catholics and Protestants, there was a close to mutual understanding between Lutheran and Catholic positions.

    The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification essentially says that Lutherans and Catholics explain justification in different ways but share the same basic understanding. The central passage reads, “Together we confess: by grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping us and calling us to good works.” The declaration acknowledges that good works are a genuine response to God’s grace—not the cause of it.
     
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  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Yep, and I followed that conference quite closely and even referred to it a few days ago here at RF. Even though I'm Catholic, I was brought up in a fundamentalist Lutheran church.
     
  8. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    if you happen to pop back into this thread, could you please give me your thoughts on what is God’s grace?
     
  9. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    That doesn't make sense ? How do they relate?
     
  10. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    In the OT Faith + works . After the cross . Faith .
     
  11. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Maybe reread Jesus' Parable of the Seed & Sower, and then maybe turn to Paul's statement about "faith" without good works.

    Also:
    Gal.2[16] yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified.

    Notice the reference is to works of the [Jewish] law.

    For further clarification on this we have what James wrote:
    Jas.2[14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?[17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.[18] But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

    Jas.3[13] Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good life let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom.
     
  12. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Who s James writing to ?
     
  13. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    ok

    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works

    this was written after the cross

    notice the word “by”

    i am wondering what it means?
     
  14. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    To the 12 tribes . In the tribulation it will be a return to Faith and works
     
  15. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Grace is the love of God beyond the Trinity. There is grace at the roots of the world. The universe is rooted in grace. It exists because it is loved absolutely.
     
  16. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    ah, yes, of course

    the dreaded tribulation

    glad you cleared that up
     
  17. Jeremiah Ames

    Jeremiah Ames Well-Known Member

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    now I am even more lost

    but thanks for your thoughtful comment
     
  18. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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