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Christians and Cleavage

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Neophyte, Jul 30, 2011.

  1. blackout

    blackout Violet.

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    There was no "apple".

    "Fruit" I believe, is the standard translation,
    and also in an allegorical/symbolic setting
    makes the most sense.

    The "forbidden fruits".
    The "forbidden pleasures", and treasures,
    the forbidden "tastes", "seeds", "understandings",
    "desires", "experiences", "Self Knowing", Self Understanding.

    but WHO is it,
    that forbids us the fruits of personal knowledge?
    (In'Sight)

    And why does conventional knowledge revile us so much,
    as to make us "cover" our nakedness (on the 'outside')
    for fear of societal/social "exile"?
     
  2. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    study the bible with the faithful and discreet slave, and you can know such things too

    God didnt make them ashamed. It was their imperfect thoughts that did that. Before they sinned, their view of themselves was in harmony with Gods view. After they sinned, they became alienated from Gods perfect view and looked at each other differently. To the man, the woman was for his own sexual selfish pleasure. That selfish idea was completely new to him and it made him feel ashamed of himself, his conscience told him it was wrong or bad to think that way. She likewise felt ashamed that she was no longer his equal partner...she was now his property, something for him to use for his advantage and because he was so interested in her sexual organs, she surely used them to her advantage too.

    thus, imperfect mankind was born along with all the idiotic ideas that they can dream up.
     
    #42 Pegg, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  3. St Giordano Bruno

    St Giordano Bruno Well-Known Member

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    I don't consider woman's cleavage to be a sin but plumber's crack, well that may be going too far. May that should have been declared a sin.
     
  4. Neophyte

    Neophyte Miranda Kerr Worship

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    This is all just opinion though. The Bible never says why it "bacame" sin all of a sudden. It just delcared it a sin.

    As for for being equals, the man was placed over the woman...WHOOHOO! Just kidding of course!
     
  5. Neophyte

    Neophyte Miranda Kerr Worship

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    amen bother!
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the meaning of sin is to 'miss the mark' ...it means to fail in some respect.

    What A&E failed to do was to continue to hold to Gods perfect standards. And the bible does actually give us those perfect standards... so its not like we can't know what they are....its just that we dont always agree to them or live by them. A&E failed to live by them too.

    Regarding the sin of sexual desire, the reason why it 'fails' in terms of Gods perfect standard is because child rearing was the real purpose of sexual relations. But we see accounts through the scriptures of people using sex for other means. All these other means are condemned as sin, a failure, because they are out of harmony with Gods original intention for sex.
     
  7. Blackdog22

    Blackdog22 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, without thinking about nakedness as something sexual we wouldn't reproduce. I guess your saying that Adam and Eve were meant to be the only people in the world and "somehow" we started having babies through our own power?

    Sexual attraction had to be in Gods plan or he wouldn't of made sex feel so good, wouldn't of made our genitals, and we wouldn't be attracted to the opposite sex.

    I mean... How in the hell did we somehow cause breasts to turn us on? Do you know how many sexual processes activate to drive our sexuality? Do you think humans "somehow" created puberty and God was like "What? No way!!!" and then us "filthy humans" somehow managed to create estrogen and testosterone? What because we ate an apple? Seriously?????
     
    #47 Blackdog22, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    no of couse not. Genesis says that God wanted them to reproduce "multiply and fill the earth and subdue it" Sexual reproduction is a good thing. But the way man uses it is not.
    Do you think when someone is raped, it is pleasurable? Is it for the purpose that God set, reproduction?
    No. The fact is that mans use of sexuality is skewiff. It is abused and misused.
     
  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Everyone's sexuality except mine is misuse and abuse. Thank goodness I'm on the right track, though. At least, there's that.
     
  10. Blackdog22

    Blackdog22 Well-Known Member

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    For one God could of turned off our sexual urges until we are married. It isn't our fault that God made the desire to have sex in males comparable to a drug addiction. I am not saying men are not responsible for their own actions, but things like rape happen because some peoples sex drives are out of control and that is Gods fault. If I stick you with a heroine needle and then let you into the wild you may end up finding a way to find heroine again. Of course you are responsible for getting that second hit, but the guy who stuck you with that needle is one ******up *******.

    Secondly' rape was in the Bible. It happened under Gods guidance, so you may need to ask God what his stance on rape is, because it isn't all that clear to be honest. Which is why I think human morality > Gods morality.
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    So you still maintain the Bible says that had A&E not eaten the apple that they and all their descendants (you and I included) would have perfect knowledge of everything. However, you refuse to show us where this information can be found. Usually this tactic, "Look it up yourself," is a way of dodging an embarrassing issue. I hope this isn't the case here, and that you will show us the chapter and verse where it resides.
     
  12. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    If we rely on God for knowledge, then Yes, our knowledge will be perfect.

    The scriptures reveal times when God has given knowledge to people. So he can give it to us. He gave it to A&E and they lived by it for a length of time before the 'fall'

    Numbers 24:16 The utterance of the one hearing the sayings of God,
    And the one knowing the knowledge of the Most High—
    A vision of the Almighty he got to see...


    Job 21:14 shows that mankind has turned away from the knowledge of God
    " And they say to the [true] God, ‘Turn away from us!
    And in the knowledge of your ways we have found no delight.
    "

    Is God willing to give us his knowledge so that we may live by it? Yes he is:
    Proverbs 2:3-9 " if, moreover, you call out for understanding...5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God. 6 For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; out of his mouth there are knowledge and discernment. 7 And for the upright ones he will treasure up practical wisdom;...9 In that case you will understand righteousness and judgment and uprightness, the entire course of what is good."
    Does God give special knowledge to those who are faithful toward him? Yes he does
    Regarding the prophet Daniel and his 3 companions we read:

    Daniel 1:17 "And as for these children, the four of them, to them the [true] God gave knowledge and insight in all writing and wisdom; and Daniel himself had understanding in all sorts of visions and dreams

    The knowledge of God is based on truth, but mankind have chosen what amounts to lies
    Romans 1:24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie

    Yet God has still provided his truth and spiritual understanding to people
    Colossians 1:9 That is also why we, from the day we heard [of it], have not ceased praying for YOU and asking that YOU may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension


    So the knowledge of God is what A&E had before they lost it. They lived without seeing themselves as sexual objects and they looked as each other in the way God intended..even with their natural sexual impulse, they did not view each other in the way they did after they sinned. The reason can only be that they were being governed by Gods knowledge, not their own.
     
  13. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    You are right that rape is mentioned in the bible. If a man raped a woman he was to be put to death. If a man took a virgin and seduced her, he had to marry her and could never divorce her because he took her virginity.

    Really, Gods view of our sexuality is very dignified. It is mankind who trashed it.
     
  14. earlwooters

    earlwooters Active Member

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    Lots of men now have more cleavage than lots of women. Why doesn't all these things apply to them? Double standard?
     
  15. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    This is one of those things that really makes me angry about the predominant Christian view of modesty. Some of us just can't help it if a little bit of cleavage shows with a shirt or a dress. Sometimes shirts slip down. Contrary to popular fundamentalist belief, that does not mean I am some kind of scarlet woman. It definitely does not mean I am trying to seduce you. It just means I've been blessed with nice breasts.

    On that note, I think you can tell when a woman is trying to dress "scandalously." It's pretty obvious when someone is showing her body off just for the attention. But I've been reprimanded in my own church for showing a little bit more than the menfolk there are comfortable with and to me, that is completely unacceptable. I'm there to worship, so if someone can't keep his eyes to himself, that's not really my fault. There's nothing wrong with wearing attractive and stylish clothing as long as it's not purposefully to look like a hooker.

    To answer the question about what the Bible says concerning cleavage and modesty, I have never read anything about cleavage specifically. I personally feel that it has a lot to do with culture. What is acceptable in one culture is not acceptable in another. For example, in some early Native American tribes, it was typical and normal for women to go around topless. The breasts weren't sexualized to the same extent that many Western cultures sexualize them. A woman could be naked from the waist up and the men really wouldn't look twice. However, in some primarily Islamic countries, it might be seen as inappropriate for me to be out and about in blue jeans and a tank top. Even though that outfit would won't be looked at badly where I live, some people in other countries may be uncomfortable with women in tight clothing. It's all pretty much relative.

    I say try to look decent, but dress how you want.
     
    #55 Lindsey-Loo, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  16. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    First of all, thank you for taking the time to look up the passages and provide your comments. They are appreciated. And because some of your examples and comments don't appear relevant please keep in mind what the issue is here; the one to which you are replying:
    "So you still maintain the Bible says that had A&E not eaten the apple that they and all their descendants (you and I included) would have perfect knowledge of everything."
    Our "perfect knowledge of everything."

    Furthermore, I don't know what version of the Bible you used here, which made it impossible to look up the surrounding verses, so my comments are also based on that of the NIV.

    In the NIV this reads,
    "16 the prophecy of one who hears the words of God,
    who has knowledge from the Most High,
    who sees a vision from the Almighty, . . . ."
    which doesn't indicate any kind of complete knowledge--- knowledge of everything that is knowable, which is the kind of knowledge at issue---but just "knowledge," which may be a little knowledge or simply sufficient knowledge.

    "14 Yet they say to God, ‘Leave us alone!
    We have no desire to know your ways."
    This is knowledge about god, not what he knows.

    As Proverbs 1 explains.
    "Purpose and Theme

    1 The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel: 2 for gaining wisdom and instruction;
    for understanding words of insight;
    3 for receiving instruction in prudent behavior,
    doing what is right and just and fair;
    4 for giving prudence to those who are simple,
    knowledge and discretion to the young—
    5 let the wise listen and add to their learning,
    and let the discerning get guidance—
    6 for understanding proverbs and parables,
    the sayings and riddles of the wise."​
    so what follows, verse 2+, isn't any kind of knowledge of everything, but bits of information to achieve what the purposes listed above.


    Again, as you recognize, this isn't universal knowledge, but specific knowledge to understand writing and wisdom.

    Not any universal knowledge, but knowledge about god.


    Yet God has still provided his truth and spiritual understanding to people
    Colossians 1:9 That is also why we, from the day we heard [of it], have not ceased praying for YOU and asking that YOU may be filled with the accurate knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual comprehension[/quote]
    "24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."
    Again, this is knowledge about god, not a knowledge of everything.


    Yes, this knowledge of god is knowledge about him. And, as it turns out, none of the scripture you've provided or your comments supports or even addresses the issue: our "perfect knowledge of everything."
     
  17. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    i do have a bad habit of using words that are far too encompassing. I really meant that we could have perfect knowledge of the things that pertain to us. Obviously we will not have knowledge of 'everything' as in everything that God knows. But in terms of our needs and our purpose and our own behavior, in terms of what relates to us as humans, we can know everything we need to know.

    I used our NWT. I like the NIV's translation here...'who has knowledge from the Most High'... it shows that we can have knowledge from God. He didnt create us and then leave us to work it all out for ourselves.
    Knowledge 'about' God could mean anything. It could be about his justice, his laws, his love, his personality.... really, the expression shows that mankind continue to ignore God and his 'ways'... The verse is implying that mankind dont want to know any of Gods ways. His ways would be linked to his knowledge of things because how he views things are very much linked to his knowledge.


    And just to add, there is universal knowledge mentioned in the scriptures.
    Romans 2:14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.

    With this verse in mind, it is easy to see how Adams conscience caused him to feel shame when he looked at his wife in a different way. His own thoughts accused him and thus he felt ashamed of himself. That is exactly what we feel when we do something that we know is wrong.
     
    #57 Pegg, Aug 1, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  18. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    So it is allright with you if people perpetuate untruths? Anyone who presents a myth as something that actually happened should be called out on it. They are lieing.

    I would go further and say that inaccurate beliefs should be opposed whenever possible, as should teaching them to others.
     
  19. Neophyte

    Neophyte Miranda Kerr Worship

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    If I tell you that the sun revolves around the earth then I am wrong, yet if I truly believe it and tell someone else I am not lying. Lying is deliberately telling someone something you know to be false. Grant it, I am still wrong, but I should not be mistreated or mocked for being wrong. If I believe it then so be it. Also, prove me wrong...you can't really. Have you ever seen outer-space for yourself? Neither have I. You may have seen pictures, but you are putting your faith in someone that those pictures are real. Same with scientists saying that the earth rotates...my point is, we all put our faith in something. No one should be ridiculed over their faith. Also, if they are wrong and they tell others it does not make them a liar.
     
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  20. Looncall

    Looncall Well-Known Member

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    If they persist in promoting inaccurate notions that they have been shown to be inaccurate, they are lying. We do all live in the same universe, after all. Reality does not come with optional accessories.

    Scientific statements do come with evidence and accounts of how the stated results were arrived at. Faith is not involved. Anyone can work through the demonstrations for themselves if they are willing to make the effort.

    Faith does not excuse willful ignorance.
     
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