Christians and Atheists only: the christian atheist

[Karl R]

A journalism professor, Robert Jensen, recently created a huge controversy by publishing the following article:

[SIZE=+2]Why I am a Christian (Sort Of...)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3]I[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] don't believe in God.

I don't believe Jesus Christ was the son of a God that I don't believe in, nor do I believe Jesus rose from the dead to ascend to a heaven that I don't believe exists.

Given these positions, this year I did the only thing that seemed sensible: I formally joined a Christian church.

Standing before the congregation of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX, I affirmed that I (1) endorsed the core principles in Christ's teaching; (2) intended to work to deepen my understanding and practice of the universal love at the heart of those principles; and (3) pledged to be a responsible member of the church and the larger community.

So, I'm a Christian, sort of. A secular Christian. A Christian atheist, perhaps. But, in a deep sense, I would argue, a real Christian.[/SIZE]

The rest of Robert Jensen's article can be found here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/jensen03072006.html

This action has sparked a huge controversy among conservative christians and atheists alike.

Jim Rigby, the pastor of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin elaborates on some of the controversy.

I wasn't surprised when many were unhappy about the decision of St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church in Austin, TX, where I am the pastor, to let a self-professed atheist become a member. But the intensity and tone of the condemnations were surprising; this wave of mail feels different, more desperate, like people have been backed against a wall.

Ironically, the new member, a longtime leftist political activist and professor in Austin, has been getting mail from fellow atheists skeptical of his decision.

"How can you do this?" both sides are asking. To me they ask, "How can you let someone join the church who cannot affirm the divinity of Christ? Does nothing matter to you liberals?" To Robert Jensen they ask, "How, as an atheist, can you surrender your mind to a superstitious institution that birthed the inquisition and the crusades?"

Neither the church nor Jensen views his membership as surrendering anything, but instead as an attempt to build connections. Such efforts are crucial in a world where there seems not to be a lot of wood to build the bridges we need. And the shame is, while we fight among ourselves, the world is burning.

The rest of Jim Rigby's article can be found here:
http://www.staopen.com/rigby_jensen.shtml

This debate is open to all christians and atheists.

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

 

[Mike182]

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

so the question becomes, is he following the basic message of jesus christ? jesus says "love God, and love your neighbor" and i believe that is the very basic message of jesus christ - if you do not follow that, in my oppinion, you are not a christian.

 

[Snowbear]

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

Cool

I think his discision is between himself and God... it's not my place, the pastor's place, the world's place or anyone's but God's to judge Mr Jensen's motives.

 

[Squirt]

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

Well, as a Christian who gets told almost daily that I'm not a legitimate, real, true Christian, I would also hesitate to say such a thing to somebody else. But it does seem to me that being a Christian involves more than simply recognizing that Jesus Christ was a good person who taught us to love one another. Virtually all of the world's great religions teach something very much akin to the "Golden Rule." While it seems to me that it would be difficult for someone to call himself a Christian if he doesn't at least attempt to follow Christ's example, there are many other "good" people one could choose to emulate if the point was simply to go along with Christ's message of love. I honestly don't understand why someone would even want to call himself a Christian if He thought Jesus was nothing more than a good role model. But, as I said before, if Robert Jensen wants to call himself a Christian, it's up to him.

 

[Augustine]

if he follows the very basic message of jesus christ, he has every right to call himself a christian!

so the question becomes, is he following the basic message of jesus christ? jesus says "love God, and love your neighbor" and i believe that is the very basic message of jesus christ - if you do not follow that, in my oppinion, you are not a christian.

If you follow this line of reasoning then a Buddhist could call himself a Christian as long as he espoused teachings Christ. Heck, most people feel that doing good for one's neighbor is a good act that should be done. If this is the core requirement for being a Christian, then any person who does good on the face of the earth is a Christian.

I would contend that Christ's message was one of His own sacrifice on behalf the sins of the many. You are Christian if you belief this to be true. To do otherwise would be to deny the true message of Jesus Christ.

 

[sojourner]

I say, "Good for him!":takeabow: That kind of action flies in the face of every self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude all-too present in today's American Protestantism. He affirms Christ's teachings without subscribing to all the surplus, contrived bull crap present in so many of our "belief systems." (Isn't that what Jesus did to Pharisaical Judaism???)

This sort of goes along with AE's thread about the conservative agenda. Belief isn't a "system," it's belief. If this person believes in the power and goodness of love, GREAT!

 

[Karl R]

I applaud Robert Jensen's decision to follow Jesus' teachings.

I applaud Jensen's decision to join a church in order to pursue this desire.

I applaud Jim Rigby's decision to welcome Robert Jensen into his congregation.

It doesn't bother me that Jensen chooses to call himself a christian. I'm not sure that it's an accurate description, but I'm not sure that it's inaccurate either.

it does seem to me that being a Christian involves more than simply recognizing that Jesus Christ was a good person who taught us to love one another.

I tend to agree with this. Based on my experience, you gain something from belief in god and christ. You gain the power of prayer. You gain spiritual gifts. I suspect that Jensen doesn't share those benefits due to his lack of belief. (If he does, it will really force a change in my worldview ... and probably Jensen's as well.)

It seems to me that Jensen is trying to do the difficult part without having the benefit of some of the tools that would make his task easier.

Despite this, I firmly believe that Jensen (having the desire to help, but lacking the tools) will be far more effective than many christians (who have the tools, but lack the desire to help).

 

[sojourner]

I applaud Robert Jensen's decision to follow Jesus' teachings.

I applaud Jensen's decision to join a church in order to pursue this desire.

I applaud Jim Rigby's decision to welcome Robert Jensen into his congregation.

It doesn't bother me that Jensen chooses to call himself a christian. I'm not sure that it's an accurate description, but I'm not sure that it's inaccurate either.


I tend to agree with this. Based on my experience, you gain something from belief in god and christ. You gain the power of prayer. You gain spiritual gifts. I suspect that Jensen doesn't share those benefits due to his lack of belief. (If he does, it will really force a change in my worldview ... and probably Jensen's as well.)

It seems to me that Jensen is trying to do the difficult part without having the benefit of some of the tools that would make his task easier.

Despite this, I firmly believe that Jensen (having the desire to help, but lacking the tools) will be far more effective than many christians (who have the tools, but lack the desire to help).

His actions pull us up short, who are all-too-comfortably ensconced in our little definitions, and causes us to question the boundaries we place around Christ's community. That's good.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Amen Brother Robert!

Jesus indicated that it's not WHAT we believe as much as how we love that makes us his disciple. There will be some surprises on judgement day. Many who thought they were saved will be weeping and many who had no knowledge that they were will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Scott1]

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

God bless the both of them!

Mr. Jensen seems to be following his conscience... and while some Protestants don't feel this is "sufficient" for a right relationship with God (or salvation, as logic would follow) I believe that the conscience bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. He might not believe in God, but it seems clear to me that God believes in him.

When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking.

Scott

 

[sojourner]

He might not believe in God, but it seems clear to me that God believes in him.

Amen and amen. I highlighted that in red, because it is Holy Spoirit stuff. I think that is one of the deepest truths about God -- that God believes in all of us, even if we don't believe in God. it concisely represents God's forbearance and patience with us. I'll have to include that among my favorite quotes of all time! Thank you. If I could triple-frubal you, I would.

 

[michel]

This seems strange, because it is, to some extent, where I am (Theologically). My profile says it all "A follower of Christ"; now I am not saying that I don't believe in God (I do), but I have no idea what this God is like (his attributes), and, being a rather simple soul, I seem to feel the need to understand something before believing in it.

Now as far as I am concerned, Christ came as "the son of God", fair enough, I believe in Christ's teachings. My trouble comes with trying to make sense out of the Abrahamic God, and the one Christ describes.....

So, I suppose, what this comes to, is that I believe in Christ's words and actions; heck, according to the Trinity (to which I subscribe) Christ is a facet of God...........so I personally see nothing wrong in the way I feel. To my mind, it is better for me to live the live of a follower of Christ, rather that get myself bogged down trying to 'define' God. Christ was a incarnation of God (as I believe we all are) That, I can understand.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?"

Fine. I have no problem whatsoever with people who can't intellectually assent to the Christian myth. There's no way to prove to people that the myths are true, so intellectually, it can't be for many people. Nevertheless, if Christianity is to have real value for people, it has to be pragmatically useful to some extent, and in being so it has redemptive value even if the myths aren't true.

However, as a pastor, I would be careful not to abandon the myths altogether, and be sure and talk with Jensen about our myths. I have no issue at all with the term atheist or secular Christian as the qualifiers on the term divorce it from traditional Christianity, which does affirm the myths of the resurrection of Jesus, the divinity of Jesus, and the Trinity. Christianity in that respect is not atheist, but affirms the existence and activity of God in the world, and he cannot be called a traditional Christian (which is something that no one is claiming) as long as he rejects the message of Christianity.

 

[Adstar]

This guy can delude himself into calling himself whatever he wants. But He cannot love Someone he does not believe exists. This is basic. One must Love God to be a Christian. It shows up the total lack of truth in the "church" ? he is joining. It shows that the church is false and he is wasting his time.

Of course they are both free to claim whatever they want, But claims are cheap when they are false.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Scuba Pete]

What is more amazing Adstar, is that the Bible addresses just how wrong you are. You show your love for God who you have not seen, by your love for your brother, who you HAVE seen. Maybe he is not the one who is deluded... at least that's what the scriptures indicate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How do you feel about Robert Jensen's decision to join a church, and Jim Rigby's decision to welcome him into his congregation?

Religion is Not about God - one can only applaud Jenson's decision and commend Rigby's courage and insight.

 

[Opethian]

one can only applaud Jenson's decision and commend Rigby's courage and insight.

I agree.

This guy can delude himself into calling himself whatever he wants. But He cannot love Someone he does not believe exists. This is basic. One must Love God to be a Christian. It shows up the total lack of truth in the "church" ? he is joining. It shows that the church is false and he is wasting his time.

Of course they are both free to claim whatever they want, But claims are cheap when they are false.

Have fun in your narrow, ignorant little world.

 

[Unedited]

If he just wants to be a good person, why does he want to belong to a house of God?

 

[ΩRôghênΩ]

people will be ,misguided in life. but only the grace of god will lead them yet.

 

[Adstar]

What is more amazing Adstar, is that the Bible addresses just how wrong you are. You show your love for God who you have not seen, by your love for your brother, who you HAVE seen. Maybe he is not the one who is deluded... at least that's what the scriptures indicate.

The best form of Love is telling people the truth, even though the truth often is confronting and hurts sometimes. Yes this man is deluded, Belief in God is the starting point on the road to salvation. He as not even made the first step.

Proverbs 27
6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days