Christianity without Paul

[Shermana]

can you provide references to the scriptures which show this?

That's a matter of historical manuscripts, not so much NT writings.

Can you show some examples of the differences you are talking about?

Start with Matthew 5:17-20 and 1 John 3:4-10. It appears that Paul's gospel of Grace clearly contradict's Yashua's teachings of how difficult it is to get into the Kingdom and what must be done to get there. For instance, in Mark 9, Jesus warns his own disciples that it's better for them to chop their own hands and feet off then use them to enter the Fire. Why would he teach that? Additionally, we have statements like "Strive for the narrow gate" and "many will be called, few will be chosen".

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

can you provide references to the scriptures which show this?




Can you show some examples of the differences you are talking about?

If you aren't willing to consider early non-biblical sources, than how can one provide references or discriptions to "the differences" or to the Ebionites?

 

[Pegg]

That's a matter of historical manuscripts, not so much NT writings.

thats what i thought. Pauls writings (or the letters attributed to him) do not contradict Christs teachings, rather, they uphold his teachings.

Start with Matthew 5:17-20 and 1 John 3:4-10. It appears that Paul's gospel of Grace clearly contradict's Yashua's teachings of how difficult it is to get into the Kingdom and what must be done to get there.

what is Pauls gospel of grace....can you provide the passage of verse you are calling the gospel of grace.
And please give an explanation of the gospel of grace as you understand it.

For instance, in Mark 9, Jesus warns his own disciples that it's better for them to chop their own hands and feet off then use them to enter the Fire. Why would he teach that? Additionally, we have statements like "Strive for the narrow gate" and "many will be called, few will be chosen".

Jesus said not to let anything stumble you:
mark 9:47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Ge‧hen′na
In harmony with the above, Paul stressed that the flesh is weak and can stumble us:
Romans 8:13 for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will live.

Galatians 5:24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires


Jesus said the way to the kingdom of heaven is like a narrow gate...IOW, not all roads lead to rome:
Matthew 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it
The parallel account says it this way:Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able

Peters take on this is as follows:
1Peter 4:18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?

Did Paul really teach that salvation was easy? No. His letter to the Thessalonians shows that christians had to prove themselves worthy of Gods salvation.
2Thessalonians 1:8 '...as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus...11 To that very end indeed we always pray for YOU (christians) , that our God may count YOU worthy of [his] calling



Perhaps you can point out some clear contradictions because i've never seen any.

 

[Pegg]

If you aren't willing to consider early non-biblical sources, than how can one provide references or discriptions to "the differences" or to the Ebionites?

you really want to use non authoritative writings to condemn the writings which were inspired by God???

I would never use extrabiblical text to analyze and debate over biblical text. Never. You will find that most extrabiblical texts contradict the bible and the teachings of Christ because they come from a different authors with their own ideas and philosophies....whereas the bible has one author, God.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

you really want to use non authoritative writings to condemn the writings which were inspired by God???

No, not non authoritative. But what do you consider "authoritative?" Only biblical texts. And you have already judged these to be authoritative. None so blind as those that will not see.

 

[Pegg]

No, not non authoritative. But what do you consider "authoritative?" Only biblical texts. And you have already judged these to be authoritative. None so blind as those that will not see.

Jesus gave authority to his 12 apostles. He told them to go forth and preach and that holy spirit would teach them all the things they needed to teach others.

The writings approved by them were those written during their time. The early christians of the 2nd/3rd centuries knew which writings were put down during the apostles lifetimes and which were accepted by them....thats how they knew what books to include (or exclude) from the cannon.

So we know the cannon is the authoritive books. Anything besides them are not from the ones authorized to teach christianity.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Jesus gave authority to his 12 apostles. He told them to go forth and preach and that holy spirit would teach them all the things they needed to teach others.

Which you are "aware" of because anonymous authors were later connected with specifc persons and determined to be part of christian canon.

The writings approved by them were those written during their time.

The dating of all these texts depends on modern scholarship. Mark was written around ~70. The issue of what texts were "approved" wasn't settled until much later.

The early christians of the 2nd/3rd centuries knew which writings were put down during the apostles lifetimes and which were accepted by them

On what are you basing this?

 

[Pegg]

Which you are "aware" of because anonymous authors were later connected with specifc persons and determined to be part of christian canon.

The dating of all these texts depends on modern scholarship. Mark was written around ~70. The issue of what texts were "approved" wasn't settled until much later.


On what are you basing this?

there is plenty of evidence of the books they viewed as coming with authority of the apostles

the earliest known christians such as Clement of Rome (30?-100? C.E.), Polycarp (69?-155? C.E.), and Ignatius of Antioch (late 1st and early 2nd centuries C.E.) all included quotations and extracts from various books of the Christian Greek Scriptures, showing they were not only acquainted with them, but also viewed them as authoritative christian writings. Irenaeus uses 200 quotations specifically from Paul’s letters in his writings

Chester Beatty Papyrus No. 2 (P46) (dated within 150 years of Paul’s death), contains 9 of Pauls letters all collected together in one volume!

 

[Shermana]

thats what i thought. Pauls writings (or the letters attributed to him) do not contradict Christs teachings, rather, they uphold his teachings.

No no no, you asked for Biblical evidence of the various Jewish movements like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes that they didn't like Paul's teachings, and then you completely ignore what I said about how Paul contradicts Jesus's very explicit teachings. You're not even close to staying on track there. If anything, Paul mentions the Judaizing movements who disagree with him.

what is Pauls gospel of grace....can you provide the passage of verse you are calling the gospel of grace.

Here let me give you a couple sites that describe this doctrine in the mainstream view.

Galatians 2 - Paul Defends the Gospel of Grace
The Gospel According to Paul
Completeness of Gospel of Grace - Gal. 6:11-18
The New Testament Gospel Without Paul
http://www.waukeshabible.org/sermons/Galatians/Manuscripts/Galatian sermon 02 - Gal 1v6f.pdf
http://graceambassadors.com/midacts/the-separation-of-the-grace-gospel

And please give an explanation of the gospel of grace as you understand it.

That all you have to do is say you believe in Jesus and you're saved, why don't you explain what you think it means, that's the basic gist that all the above sites say at least.

Jesus said not to let anything stumble you:

And what does it mean to cause you to stumble, and what happens if you stumble? Nothing?

mark 9:47 And if your eye makes you stumble, throw it away; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into the kingdom of God than with two eyes to be pitched into Ge‧hen′na
In harmony with the above, Paul stressed that the flesh is weak and can stumble us:

Okay, so what is the consequence of stumbling in Paul's version?

Romans 8:13 for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will live.

Galatians 5:24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires

Are you saying that a Christian can continue to live in sin and still be guaranteed a place in heaven? What happens to those who don't "Strive for the narrow gate"?

Jesus said the way to the kingdom of heaven is like a narrow gate...IOW, not all roads lead to rome:

Exactly. A VERY narrow gate. He says FEW will make it. Why do only a FEW make it?

Matthew 7:13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it
The parallel account says it this way:Luke 13:24 “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell YOU, will seek to get in but will not be able

So why is the gate so narrow? Why will so many not be able to get in?

Peters take on this is as follows:
1Peter 4:18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?

Right. So then, what are the requirements exactly if it's so difficult? Apparently only the rightoeus can get in. What does it mean to be righteous?

Did Paul really teach that salvation was easy? No. His letter to the Thessalonians shows that christians had to prove themselves worthy of Gods salvation.
2Thessalonians 1:8 '...as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus...11 To that very end indeed we always pray for YOU (christians) , that our God may count YOU worthy of [his] calling

That verse in no way indicates difficulty, all it says is that they pray that G-d may count them worthy. Find a better verse to back your view here.

Perhaps you can point out some clear contradictions because i've never seen any.

Paul says:

[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Which contradicts completely with what Jesus teaches about self effort.

 

[Pegg]

No no no, you asked for Biblical evidence of the various Jewish movements like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes ...If anything, Paul mentions the Judaizing movements who disagree with him.

the nazarenes were Jesus disciples and Paul was one of them according to the account by Luke in Acts:

24 :5 "For we have found this man a pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth and a spearhead of the sect of the Naz·a·renes"
'the nazarenes' is what the Jews called christians....it didnt mean a sect of Christianity.

Here let me give you a couple sites that describe this doctrine in the mainstream view.
That all you have to do is say you believe in Jesus and you're saved, why don't you explain what you think it means, that's the basic gist that all the above sites say at least.

but that is not what Paul taught. He gave very strong counsel about the need to bring ones life into harmony with Gods laws.

1Cor6:9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, ...As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom

I dont think people really know what Paul taught. They simply have tried to discredit him because he was the most prolific christian writer and they think he was opposed to the mosaic law code.

And what does it mean to cause you to stumble, and what happens if you stumble? Nothing?
Okay, so what is the consequence of stumbling in Paul's version?

to stumble means to loose faith, to fall, to commit sin. Our actions can even cause a brother to stumble by weakening their faith.
Paul said:
1Cor 8:12 But when YOU people thus sin against YOUR brothers and wound their conscience that is weak, YOU are sinning against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat flesh at all, that I may not make my brother stumble.
Paul believed that eating pork was alright, he had earlier said so, but he also said that if a jewish brother would stumble at seeing Paul eat a food he felt was forbidden, then Paul would not eat it for the brothers sake. This was in harmony with Jesus teaching "if that right eye is making you stumble, tear it away from you"

At the same time, Paul was not going to judge a brother from the nations who was eating pork as one who was breaking Gods law:
Romans 14:19 So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace...20 Stop tearing down the work of God just for the sake of food. True, all things are clean, but it is injurious to the man who with an occasion for stumbling eats. 21 It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles. 22 The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God
Pauls view was that it was not up to him to judge his brothers...that is in harmony with Jesus teaching
Matthew 7:7 “Stop judging that YOU may not be judged"

Are you saying that a Christian can continue to live in sin and still be guaranteed a place in heaven? What happens to those who don't "Strive for the narrow gate"?

Galatians 5:2-4 says that christians had 'impaled the flesh'
It meant that they had turned away from sin and worked to live in accord with God righteousness. christians were told by Paul that if they practiced sin they would not inherit the kingdom.
Hebrews 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment...28 Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion...29 Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God...

Exactly. A VERY narrow gate. He says FEW will make it. Why do only a FEW make it?
So why is the gate so narrow? Why will so many not be able to get in?

it is a narrow gate because is is based on Christs teachings as expressed through his apostles. Acts 14:22 tells christians to "remain in the faith " (singular)

Jesus teachings are 'the faith'....there is only 1 faith. But in the world today, we find thousands upon thousands of faiths. Only one of them leads to life. So this is why Jesus said there are 'many on the broad spacious road' and so few on the 'narrow road'
Ephesians 4:4 even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

Many will not be able to get in because they are trying to get in through the teachings of someone else. Jesus chose his apostles and Paul to teach 'the faith'....if we reject any of their teachings we are rejecting Christs teachings and thus are not on the narrow road. Thats why we must uphold Gods word and put our trust in it...if we dont we cannot say we are on the narrow road.

Right. So then, what are the requirements exactly if it's so difficult? Apparently only the rightoeus can get in. What does it mean to be righteous?

1John 3:7 Little children, let no one mislead YOU; he who carries on righteousness is righteous, just as that one is righteousa righteous person knows God, and they strive to live by Gods righteous standards. Noah was a called a righteous man, why? Because he upheld Gods righteousness.

That verse in no way indicates difficulty, all it says is that they pray that G-d may count them worthy. Find a better verse to back your view here.

Jesus said;
Mark 10:23 After looking around Jesus said to his disciples: “How difficult a thing it will be for those with money to enter into the kingdom of God!
Paul said:
1Timothy 6:17Give orders to those who are rich in the present system of things not to be high-minded, and to rest their hope, not on uncertain riches, but on God

Paul also spoke of the tribulation and suffering of christians:
Romans 8:14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. ...17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together

Paul did not have a 'once saved always saved' attitude:
Galatians 6:1 Brothers, even though a man takes some false step before he is aware of it, YOU who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness, as you each keep an eye on yourself, for fear you also may be tempted

1Cor 10:12 Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall.

Paul says:
Which contradicts completely with what Jesus teaches about self effort.

Actually, Jesus said that no one can come to God unless God first calls him.
John 6:44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him
jOhn 6:65 So he went on to say: “This is why I have said to YOU, No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

Matthew 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son but the Father, neither does anyone fully know the Father but the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him


Paul expressed this same teaching:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 However, we are obligated to thank God always for YOU, brothers loved by Jehovah, because God selected YOU from [the] beginning for salvation by sanctifying YOU with spirit and by YOUR faith in the truth.

Romans 8:30 Moreover, those whom he foreordained are the ones he also called; and those whom he called are the ones he also declared to be righteous

Philippians 3:14 I am pursuing down toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 2:12 to the end that YOU should go on walking worthily of God who is calling YOU to his kingdom and glory.

 

[JacobEzra.]

"Christianity without Paul"...

Would be boring?

 

[Shermana]

"Christianity without Paul"...

Would be boring?

I say quite the opposite, I love reading the gospels, Paul puts me to sleep.

 

[Rhadamanthus]

Luke-Acts are the same author, as the two are introduced to the same Individual (theophilus), Acts being a continuation of Luke, Paul only being a Letter writer, Paul/Saul is very Phantom like

Paul aka Luke's Christianity

 

[Pegg]

I say quite the opposite, I love reading the gospels, Paul puts me to sleep.

I love how Paul explains the mosaic law and the meaning of its regulations....he was trained by the first 'rabbi' Gamalial which is why he has such a good grasp of the law. He is the only one who explains the link between the temple and Messiah and how everything done at the temple held a spiritual significance.

His writings should be savored.

 

[Rhadamanthus]

How can he be trained by Rabbi "Gamalial" yet no Jewish Record of it. if he was trained by "Gamalial" would that not make him a Rabbi and of the Sanhedrin as well as a Pharisee ?? Only person i could think of is Flavius Josephus

According to Flavius Josephus, Gamalial had two children Simon and Jesus.

-(Flavius)- FLAVIVS / PLAVIVS / PAVLIVS -(Paul)-

Christianity without Flavius Josephus

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/autobiog.htm
)_______________________________
At "about fourteen years of age," he (Josephus) was commanded by all
for the love I had to learning (Vita 9)

When Jesus was twelve years old his parents found him after three days in
the Temple conversing with the teachers (Mat 2.46)
_________________________________________________________________

12 Jews of Caesaria are sent as a delegation to Ecbatana (Vita 54-55)

Jesus appoints and sends out 12 apostles to preach and heal (Mat.10.2,5)

______________________________________________________________________

70 messengers are sent from Ecbatana to Caesarea (Vita 56)

Jesus appointed 70 others and sent them ahead of him (Luke 10.1)
_____________________________________________________________________

During this time, before his purported surrender to the Romans, "I
was now about thirty years old" (Vita 80)

Jesus commenced his ministry when he was 30 years of age (Luke 3.23)
______________________________________________________________________

Josephus’ quarters were in a Galilean village named Cana (Vita 86)

Jesus attended a wedding in Cana (John 2.1-2) then came to Cana
again (John 4.46)
________________________________________________________________________

Josephus told his friends that "in three days time" he would "quit the
district and go home" (Vita 205)

Jesus prophecies he will be raised up on the third day (Mat. 16.21)
____________________________________________________________________________

Jesus, chief magistrate of Tiberias, accuses Josephus of embezzling 20
pieces of gold (Vita 294-297). They laid hands on him and attempted to
kill him (Vita 302)

But if the ox have killed a man-servant, or a maid-servant, let him be stoned; and let the owner of the ox pay thirty shekels to the master of him that was slain; (Ant IV 36)

Judas goes to the priests and obtains 30 pieces of silver for betraying Jesus
(Mat. 26.14-16)
__________________________________________________________________________

Josephus notices three of his acquaintances had been crucified, so he
entreats Titus to take them down; two of them die but one recovers (Vita 420-421)

Two robbers were crucified on either side of Jesus (Mat. 18.38).
When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple (Mat 27:57)
He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. (Mat 27:58) And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth (Mat 27:59 ) Only Jesus
rises (Mat. 28.6)

-------Josephus' Attributes-------------
1. A Prophet
2. Child Prodigy around Age 12
22. Baptized, Essene, unshaven hair
3. Tells Jews to Save themselves
4. His own Resurrection Account
5. 12 Disciples
6. 70 Additional Disciples
7. Begins Ministry at Age 30
8. Attends wedding in Cana, Galilee
9. Betraying using Money
10. 3 Crucified , 1 Survived
11. Son of God
12. He speaks of the "skill" of expelling demons.
13. He is the first to speak of a "laser root,"
14. He perpetuates the idea of "signs" and omens
15. The idea of "Ghosts
16. The idea of "Angels.
17. Evil Spirits and Demons.
18. Fortune Tellers and "Mediums
19. Prophets telling the future and showing "signs", wonders and miracles
20. The idea of "Witches
21. saying of "Grace
22. He deliberately misspells the word “stone” as “son” to infer “the Son (of God),” i.e. “Jesus” is coming!!!
23. First Person to Mention John The Baptist/James/Jesus
24. He Speaks of the Idea of Sin and Hell
25. Son of Mary as a Passover Lamb
26. Legion @ Galilee
27. Speaks of Romans Decapitating Fishermen in Galilee
28. "Why Have you Forsaken Me"
29. Legion of 2000 Demons
30. Martyr Death of Simon, Spares Jesus
31. Signs Before Destruction of Temple.
32. Mount of Olives
33. Simon's Denials
34. Naked Jew
35. Simon the Rock
36. Josephus' copied his own name sake of Joseph of Genesis (mirror image of Jesus)
37. Plays same role as Joseph of Arimathea
38. His son Titus Justus makes an appearance in Acts
39. Book of Acts/Luke as similar opening address with his Vita, Against Apion and Antiquities.
40. First person to mention Christ
41. Adopted by Titus (a.k.a Son of God)
42. Paul' Journey and Josephus' Journey
43. Gospels are dependent of his Work
44. Luke/Acts used his histories

Now we know who created Christianity

 

[Pegg]

How can he be trained by Rabbi "Gamalial" yet no Jewish Record of it. if he was trained by "Gamalial" would that not make him a Rabbi and of the Sanhedrin as well as a Pharisee

Yep. but i dont know if he was a rabbi....that title is bestowed on teachers of law who have a lot of years experience....paul was still a young man when he became a christian.

Acts 22 “Men, brothers and fathers, hear my (Paul) defense to YOU now.” 2 (Well, when they heard he was addressing them in the Hebrew language, they kept all the more silent, and he said 3 “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Ci·li′cia, but educated in this city at the feet of Ga·ma′li·el, instructed according to the strictness of the ancestral Law, being zealous for God just as all of YOU are this day. 4 And I persecuted this Way to the death, binding and handing over to prisons both men and women, 5 as both the high priest and all the assembly of older men can bear me witness. From them I also procured letters to the brothers in Damascus, and I was on my way to bring also those who were there bound to Jerusalem to be punished.
26:4 “Indeed, as to the manner of life from youth up that I led from [the] beginning among my nation and in Jerusalem, all the Jews 5 that have been previously acquainted with me from the first know, if they but wish to bear witness, that according to the strictest sect of our form of worship I lived a Pharisee

Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin. The Sanhedrin commissioned Paul to wipe out christians...which he did for a short time. He was the one who oversaw the stoning of the disciple Stephen at the order to the chief priests.

 

[blackout]

The only thing "Christ'ianity" really 'requires',
is some concept/form of Christ (attainment) or another.

 

[blackout]

"Christianity without Paul"...

Would be boring?

I say quite the opposite, I love reading the gospels, Paul puts me to sleep.

Paul is a snoozer for sure.

At least the character of Jesus is engaging.

 

[JacobEzra.]

:areyoucra is that guy saying Josephus and Jesus are the same person??

 

[Rhadamanthus]

:areyoucra is that guy saying Josephus and Jesus are the same person??

Ridiculous as it seems, without "Josephus" they would be no "Christianity"
and no "Gospels", because most of the "Gospels" derive its historical context
from his Antiquities, War of the Jews, Against Apion and his Vita.

--(All this Information is all in Josephus' writings)--
Josephus :- Child prodigy around age 12
Josephus :- Baptized by Banus(John) the Essene
Josephus :- Time in Desert
Josephus :- 12 Disciples
Josephus :- 70 other Disciples
Josephus :- Begins his Administration of Galilee around aged 30
Josephus :- (believed to have)Died and Resurrected (Miraculous recovery)
Josephus :- Son of God (Adopted by Caesar) (Caesar = God)
Josephus :- Prophet / Savior
Josephus :- Went to Rome [Heaven]
Josephus :- morphed as Paul (FLAVIUS/PAVLIUS) //anagram//
Josephus :- Tell Jews to await Kingdom of Heaven (Rome)
Josephus :- Anti-Circumcision
Josephus :- Shipwrecked on voyage to Rome like Paul
Josephus :- Switch to First-Third Person like Paul
Josephus :- Nazarene (Nazareth literally means "Uncut Hair")