Christianity: Where's the Love?

[Penumbra]

One thing I've always found strange about Christianity, is the priorities it tends to have. Love and humanitarianism, are not large priorities usually.

For example, the Nicene Creed is essentially the definition of all mainstream trinitarian Christianity, formed by early councils in the 300's. When everybody got together and argued over specific details, this is what they came up with:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen

Non-Christians could argue about all of that, but what I'm interested in is not what's in there, but what's not in there. Notice that the word "love" doesn't appear anywhere in there. Although there are plenty of statements on substances and who begot whom and Mary who barely appears in the Bible and various statements on gods, the widely-believed creed of what Christianity is, doesn't even include a reference of love. In fact there aren't really any values in there at all. There are no calls to action to help the sick and needy, to practice integrity and mercy and justice, or to be a good person- that all comes in secondary statements by ministers and such. The core statement of belief includes nothing about how to live, or how one's life serves divinity. It's just rote statement on metaphysics and what you get out of it.

Next is the Lord's Prayer. Unlike the Nicene Creed that was formed by a council, the Lord's Prayer is attributed to the character of Jesus, since it's described by him in the gospels.

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth, as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
Amen.

Now that's a little bit better. If the belief is that there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god, it makes sense to simply cut to the chase and acknowledge it. That's what the character of Jesus is attributed to having said before describing this prayer in the book of Matthew:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Interestingly though, it's still a rather selfish thing. Forgive others so that you will be forgiven. Pray in private, so that you will be rewarded. It's less about what can come of it, and more about what you get from it. In the prayer, there's still almost nothing about love or values. It's all asking for stuff, including needs and forgiveness, with only a passive statement of forgiving others, which requires no action. Still not any statement on values, or what humans should do in general, how they should love people, how they should act actively. The content of the prayer is put forth as less important than how you do it to maximize benefit from it. And ironically, churches I've been to, tend to stand up and say this publicly as a group, despite how Jesus said to do it privately.

For Catholics, they also have the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit
of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
pray for us sinners now,
and at the hour of death. Amen.

This is a prayer to a being other than god, mostly asking for stuff, and also praising her, and nothing about love or human values.

When Catholics pray the Rosary, that set of beads, for example, they say a combination of the Apostle's Creed (essentially a shortened Nicene Creed), the Lord's Prayer, and the Hail Mary, over and over. So they spend all that time in concentration of prayer, repetition after repetition, with nothing there about love or how to be a good person. It's all substances and who begot whom and salvation. Those are the priorities.

In contrast, many schools of Buddhism, for example, have Loving Kindness Meditation, where the meditator specifically envisions and concentrates on loving-kindness for her friends, for neutral people, for enemies, and for everyone.

Or, you have examples like the Universalist Unitarians, with their seven principles and six sources:

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

• Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
• Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
• Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
• Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
• Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
• Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Now I might raise an eyebrow about what they mean by "prophetic" women and men, and I may contest the notion that religion in general has had a beneficial effect on inspiring ethics, but overall, it's pretty hard to argue with lists like those. Their seven principles are particularly solid, and the six sources are diverse enough. In fact their only reference to Christianity, is the short statement by Jesus in the gospels about loving others as we love ourselves, which none of the core Christian creeds and prayers bother to mention. They get right to it, with the only sentence they give to it.

If I were to describe what I think is wrong with a lot of religion today, especially conservative religion, this would be it. A core problem in my opinion is lack of evidenced validation, but aside from that, it's that priorities are often focused on metaphysics, substances, pantheons, and what one can receive, rather than any affirmation of values and how to act ethically, or calls to love, at it's core. Ethics and how to act generally come second.

Thoughts?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, being a Christian means that you're supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ Who spent much of His time on earth telling us how to treat one another. During the Rosary, we're to meditate on the life of Christ and Mary. Christ's life itself is a life of selfless love and giving up to His death on the cross which shows us that real love is self-sacrificing. We're supposed to be like Him, and also take inspiration from the Blessed Virgin and the rest of the Saints in their acts of humility, mercy and piety.

Also: Works of mercy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's supposed to be so self-evident that we shouldn't have to spell it out explicitly in creeds because it's clearly in the Gospels. UU might have to spell it out because it's more of a get-together for people of various beliefs who are politically and socially liberal rather than on focusing on common spiritual beliefs.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Penumbra,

I will address this topic in more depth tomorrow, or when time allows, because it is very late where I am and I really should rest. However you have a raised a very thought-provoking issue for which I thank you. I will critique some of your points (ie the rosary and so forth, the scope and significance of the creeds) however I want to offer one reflection for now and commend you for giving me a valuable insight that has never occurred to me before....

What I find most interesting is that in 1968 the Catholic Church promulgated a new creed, tailored for the modern age, called "The Creedo of the People of God". I have often pondered the question of what sets it apart from previous creeds and what is more 'modern' about it, apart from its considerably greater length.

But just now my brain has clicked after reading your OP and I have noticed something that has never occurred to me before: the predominance in this modern creed of the references to "love".

Here is a link to it on the Vatican website:

Holemni Hac Liturgia - Credo of the People of God

A few quotations from the Creed itself (the above contains a long introduction), with me bolding a few of the innumerable "love" references:

PROFESSION OF FAITH


8. We believe in one only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, creator of things visible such as this world in which our transient life passes, of things invisible such as the pure spirits which are also called angels,(3) and creator in each man of his spiritual and immortal soul.

9. We believe that this only God is absolutely one in His infinitely holy essence as also in all His perfections, in His omnipotence, His infinite knowledge, His providence, His will and His love. He is He who is, as He revealed to Moses;(4) and He is love, as the apostle John teaches us: so that these two names, being and love, express ineffably the same divine reality of Him who has wished to make Himself known to us, and who, "dwelling in light inaccessible,"(6) is in Himself above every name, above every thing and above every created intellect. God alone can give us right and full knowledge of this reality by revealing Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, in whose eternal life we are by grace called to share, here below in the obscurity of faith and after death in eternal light. The mutual bonds which eternally constitute the Three Persons, who are each one and the same divine being, are the blessed inmost life of God thrice holy, infinitely beyond all that we can conceive in human measure.(7) We give thanks, however, to the divine goodness that very many believers can testify with us before men to the unity of God, even though they know not the mystery of the most holy Trinity.



The Father



10. We believe then in the Father who eternally begets the Son; in the Son, the Word of God, who is eternally begotten; in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated Person who proceeds from the Father and the Son as their eternal love. Thus in the Three Divine Persons, coaeternae sibi et coaequales,(8) the life and beatitude of God perfectly one superabound and are consummated in the supreme excellence and glory proper to uncreated being, and always "there should be venerated unity in the Trinity and Trinity in the unity."(9)



The Son



11. We believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God. He is the Eternal Word, born of the Father before time began, and one in substance with the Father, homoousios to Patri,(10) and through Him all things were made. He was incarnate of the Virgin Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit, and was made man: equal therefore to the Father according to His divinity, and inferior to the Father according to His humanity;(11) and Himself one, not by some impossible confusion of His natures, but by the unity of His person.(12)

12. He dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. He proclaimed and established the Kingdom of God and made us know in Himself the Father. He gave us His new commandment to love one another as He loved us. He taught us the way of the beatitudes of the Gospel: poverty in spirit, meekness, suffering borne with patience, thirst after justice, mercy, purity of heart, will for peace, persecution suffered for justice sake. Under Pontius Pilate He suffered—the Lamb of God bearing on Himself the sins of the world, and He died for us on the cross, saving us by His redeeming blood. He was buried, and, of His own power, rose on the third day, raising us by His resurrection to that sharing in the divine life which is the life of grace. He ascended to heaven, and He will come again, this time in glory, to judge the living and the dead: each according to his merits—those who have responded to the love and piety of God going to eternal life, those who have refused them to the end going to the fire that is not extinguished.

And His Kingdom will have no end.


The Holy Spirit

13. We believe in the Holy Spirit, who is Lord and Giver of life, who is adored and glorified together with the Father and the Son. He spoke to us by the prophets; He was sent by Christ after His resurrection and His ascension to the Father; He illuminates, vivifies, protects and guides the Church; He purifies the Church's members if they do not shun His grace. His action, which penetrates to the inmost of the soul, enables man to respond to the call of Jesus: Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect (Mt. 5:48)...


Temporal Concern



27. We confess that the Kingdom of God begun here below in the Church of Christ is not of this world whose form is passing, and that its proper growth cannot be confounded with the progress of civilization, of science or of human technology, but that it consists in an ever more profound knowledge of the unfathomable riches of Christ, an ever stronger hope in eternal blessings, an ever more ardent response to the love of God, and an ever more generous bestowal of grace and holiness among men. But it is this same love which induces the Church to concern herself constantly about the true temporal welfare of men. Without ceasing to recall to her children that they have not here a lasting dwelling, she also urges them to contribute, each according to his vocation and his means, to the welfare of their earthly city, to promote justice, peace and brotherhood among men, to give their aid freely to their brothers, especially to the poorest and most unfortunate. The deep solicitude of the Church, the Spouse of Christ, for the needs of men, for their joys and hopes, their griefs and efforts, is therefore nothing other than her great desire to be present to them, in order to illuminate them with the light of Christ and to gather them all in Him, their only Savior. This solicitude can never mean that the Church conform herself to the things of this world, or that she lessen the ardor of her expectation of her Lord and of the eternal Kingdom.

...

We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are attaining their purification, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion the merciful love of God and His saints is ever listening to our prayers, as Jesus told us: Ask and you will receive.(40) Thus it is with faith and in hope that we look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

Blessed be God Thrice Holy. Amen.

 

[Desert Snake]

If I were to describe what I think is wrong with a lot of religion today, especially conservative religion, this would be it. A core problem in my opinion is lack of evidenced validation, but aside from that, it's that priorities are often focused on metaphysics, substances, pantheons, and what one can receive, rather than any affirmation of values and how to act ethically, or calls to love, at it's core. Ethics and how to act generally come second.

Thoughts?

'Pantheons'?

 

[Penumbra]

'Pantheons'?

Yeah it's all about who sits next to whom, who incarnated whom, who proceeds from whom, which beings should be blessed and glorified, separate prayers to separate beings, and so forth. A declaration of the religion's pantheon of gods and the architecture of all of this metaphysics and how things supposedly work, rather than substantial statements on values.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yeah it's all about who sits next to whom, who incarnated whom, who proceeds from whom, which beings should be blessed and glorified, separate prayers to separate beings, and so forth. A declaration of the religion's pantheon of gods and the architecture of all of this metaphysics and how things supposedly work.

Oh, I see what you mean. I don't know....I guess that's part of the Religions.

I can't honestly answer the OP, because I'm not a church attendee etc.

 

[Penumbra]

Well, being a Christian means that you're supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ Who spent much of His time on earth telling us how to treat one another. During the Rosary, we're to meditate on the life of Christ and Mary. Christ's life itself is a life of selfless love and giving up to His death on the cross which shows us that real love is self-sacrificing. We're supposed to be like Him, and also take inspiration from the Blessed Virgin and the rest of the Saints in their acts of humility, mercy and piety.

Also: Works of mercy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's supposed to be so self-evident that we shouldn't have to spell it out explicitly in creeds because it's clearly in the Gospels. UU might have to spell it out because it's more of a get-together for people of various beliefs who are politically and socially liberal rather than on focusing on common spiritual beliefs.

Is it self-evident?

I'd say an organization like the Salvation Army is structured around action and values, but not most churches, protestant or catholic.

Would you say that the actions of the Catholic Church have historically been about human values? Has there been more effort spent on fighting against birth control and LGBT rights, or reductions in poverty and injustice? Isn't that one of Pope Francis' key changes, that he'd like to see more focus on the latter than the former, compared to the how the church has been headed?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is it self-evident?

I'd say an organization like the Salvation Army is structured around action and values, but not most churches, protestant or catholic.

Would you say that the actions of the Catholic Church have historically been about human values? Has there been more effort spent on fighting against birth control and LGBT rights, or reductions in poverty and injustice? Isn't that one of Pope Francis' key changes, that he'd like to see more focus on the latter than the former, compared to the how the church has been headed?

It's self-evident to me, as least. I'm not going to defend the Church's dismal history. I have a lot of issues with it currently, myself.

 

[Desert Snake]

I would say 'love Jesus first', then worry about everyone else. The message of the Bible is a spiritual one first and foremost, complete and utter Servitude to Our Master, Yoshuah the Nazarene.

 

[steeltoes]

Oh, I see what you mean. I don't know....I guess that's part of the Religions.

I can't honestly answer the OP, because I'm not a church attendee etc.

Neither am I.

 

[Skwim]

I don't believe the Nicene Creed was created to tell people how to behave but what to believe in order to qualify for salvation.

As for the Lord's Prayer, it's simply Jesus' recognition of god's supremacy and a plea for his help.

The Hail Mary prayer is a recognition of Mary's exalted position and another plea for help.

None of these is meant to tell anyone how they should live their lives, so it should come as no surprise that they don't address love of others or humanitarianism.

 

[Thana]

One thing I've always found strange about Christianity, is the priorities it tends to have. Love and humanitarianism, are not large priorities usually.

Non-Christians could argue about all of that, but what I'm interested in is not what's in there, but what's not in there. Notice that the word "love" doesn't appear anywhere in there. Although there are plenty of statements on substances and who begot whom and Mary who barely appears in the Bible and various statements on gods, the widely-believed creed of what Christianity is, doesn't even include a reference of love. In fact there aren't really any values in there at all. There are no calls to action to help the sick and needy, to practice integrity and mercy and justice, or to be a good person- that all comes in secondary statements by ministers and such. The core statement of belief includes nothing about how to live, or how one's life serves divinity. It's just rote statement on metaphysics and what you get out of it.

Next is the Lord's Prayer. Unlike the Nicene Creed that was formed by a council, the Lord's Prayer is attributed to the character of Jesus, since it's described by him in the gospels.

The reason it is not in there is because it was not disputed. They were talking about what they believed. Love was a given and was not disputed so was not mentioned.

Now that's a little bit better. If the belief is that there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent god, it makes sense to simply cut to the chase and acknowledge it. That's what the character of Jesus is attributed to having said before describing this prayer in the book of Matthew:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Interestingly though, it's still a rather selfish thing. Forgive others so that you will be forgiven. Pray in private, so that you will be rewarded. It's less about what can come of it, and more about what you get from it. In the prayer, there's still almost nothing about love or values. It's all asking for stuff, including needs and forgiveness, with only a passive statement of forgiving others, which requires no action. Still not any statement on values, or what humans should do in general, how they should love people, how they should act actively. The content of the prayer is put forth as less important than how you do it to maximize benefit from it. And ironically, churches I've been to, tend to stand up and say this publicly as a group, despite how Jesus said to do it privately.

That's not exactly true, The main point is, God forgave you all your sins, If He can forgive you, Then you can forgive others.

Besides, The bible is pretty clear on how you should treat others. Just because they didn't add that to a prayer is most likely because it's common knowledge. Something we must do. Besides, Forgiveness is not easy or passive.

For Catholics, they also have the Hail Mary:

This is a prayer to a being other than god, mostly asking for stuff, and also praising her, and nothing about love or human values.

When Catholics pray the Rosary, that set of beads, for example, they say a combination of he Apostle's Creed (essentially a shortened Nicene Creed), the Lord's Prayer, and the Hail Mary, over and over. So they spend all that time in concentration of prayer, repetition after repetition, with nothing there about love or how to be a good person. It's all substances and who begot whom and salvation. Those are the priorities.

I can't really comment on Catholicism.

In contrast, many schools of Buddhism, for example, have Loving Kindness Meditation, where the meditator specifically envisions and concentrates on loving-kindness for her friends, for neutral people, for enemies, and for everyone.

Or, you have examples like the Universalist Unitarians, with their seven principles and six sources:

So do we.
They're in the bible. Just because some people created prayers that didn't mention them.. To me that's kind of irrelevant. So what? Most Christians practise love, And the bible puts emphasis on love. In fact, The most important commandment, Which is taught in nearly all churches, Is to love. And what about that passage about love from the bible that is quoted at nearly all weddings? Love is kind.. Love is patient etc?

Now I might raise an eyebrow about what they mean by "prophetic" women and men, and I may contest the notion that religion in general has had a beneficial effect on inspiring ethics, but overall, it's pretty hard to argue with lists like those. Their seven principles are particularly solid, and the six principles are diverse enough. In fact their only reference to Christianity, is the short statement by Jesus in the gospels about loving others as we love ourselves, which none of the core Christian creeds and prayers bother to mention. They get right to it, with the only sentence they give to it.

If I were to describe what I think is wrong with a lot of religion today, especially conservative religion, this would be it. A core problem in my opinion is lack of evidenced validation, but aside from that, it's that priorities are often focused on metaphysics, substances, pantheons, and what one can receive, rather than any affirmation of values and how to act ethically, or calls to love, at it's core. Ethics and how to act generally come second.

Thoughts?

Are you basing this from a few prayers written hundreds of years ago?
The bible is all about the love and forgiveness. I could quote you so many passages in the bible speaking about love and forgiveness. Love is what Christianity is all about! If you take away all the crap people ply onto it, It is essentially about your love for God and your love for His creations. That's it.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't believe the Nicene Creed was created to tell people how to behave but what to believe in order to qualify for salvation.

As for the Lord's Prayer, it's simply Jesus' recognition of god's supremacy and a plea for his help.

The Hail Mary prayer is a recognition of Mary's exalted position and another plea for help.

None of these is meant to tell anyone how they should live their lives, so it should come as no surprise that they don't address love of others or humanitarianism.

And I think that's exactly the wrong kind of focus.

 

[Penumbra]

The reason it is not in there is because it was not disputed. They were talking about what they believed. Love was a given and was not disputed so was not mentioned.

That's not exactly true, The main point is, God forgave you all your sins, If He can forgive you, Then you can forgive others.

Besides, The bible is pretty clear on how you should treat others. Just because they didn't add that to a prayer is most likely because it's common knowledge. Something we must do. Besides, Forgiveness is not easy or passive.

I can't really comment on Catholicism.

So do we.
They're in the bible. Just because some people created prayers that didn't mention them.. To me that's kind of irrelevant. So what? Most Christians practise love, And the bible puts emphasis on love. In fact, The most important commandment, Which is taught in nearly all churches, Is to love. And what about that passage about love from the bible that is quoted at nearly all weddings? Love is kind.. Love is patient etc?

Are you basing this from a few prayers written hundreds of years ago?
The bible is all about the love and forgiveness. I could quote you so many passages in the bible speaking about love and forgiveness. Love is what Christianity is all about! If you take away all the crap people ply onto it, It is essentially about your love for God and your love for His creations. That's it.

No, I'm basing it on the actions of Christian churches in general over the last 2,000 years. I don't think they've been very good, overall. And I'm not surprised why, considering so much focus on metaphysics and beliefs and who begot whom.

You talk about the commandment to love, but interestingly the core Christian prayers don't mention it; but the UU core sources does. They must actually view it as the key commandment, if it's the one and only thing they mention specifically from Christianity.

In Catholic masses I've been to, which is a few hundred, their structure is to always have the Nicene Creed and the Lord's Prayer be said collectively, and have this big event about eating the bread and wine, and other memorized actions, but only a rather small chunk devoted to Bible readings (of which a large part is also not about love or human values) and a small chunk devoted to the priest's sermon, which could be about anything. So, any focus on ethics, ends up being in the far secondary position, for the Catholics in the world, which is the largest individual denomination. Other churches I've briefly been to, have differed to some extent, but the focus was still on all of these metaphysical structures rather than values and ethics and how to make the world a better place.

And for example, to contrast UU and Christianity again, the local UU church here, when you go to their web page, has some statements on their beliefs and then a whole lot of content about charity and social action that they do and such. For the local Catholic Church, however, I can't find anything on their website about anything that benefits people outside of the church. All of those people get together every weekend, and there's less focus on making the world better. I remember the Catholic Church I was raised in, would give a small fraction of it's revenue to charity, and had these small somewhat charitable events once in a while. That's about it. The largest local protestant Christian Church- their website also doesn't really mention charity and action and how to get involved, but rather is proselytizing and statements of belief.

I feel like if the world's 2+ billion Christians, predominantly from the wealthier nations of the world, were to focus their organized congregations on service and love rather than exclusive metaphysics and beliefs, and if they all had calls to action to love unconditionally and do organized charity every week, the world would be so much better.

 

[dawny0826]

I don't believe the Nicene Creed was created to tell people how to behave but what to believe in order to qualify for salvation.

As for the Lord's Prayer, it's simply Jesus' recognition of god's supremacy and a plea for his help.

The Hail Mary prayer is a recognition of Mary's exalted position and another plea for help.

None of these is meant to tell anyone how they should live their lives, so it should come as no surprise that they don't address love of others or humanitarianism.

Agreed.

The Christian is to strive to live a life as per Christ's example - a life of love, forgiveness, charity and outreach.

The Great Commission is to share Christ's love.

As a Christian who is quite fond of the Nicene Creed - I agree that this is a confirmation of WHAT I believe. This is what my faith is grounded in. Faith without works, however, is dead.

Good works are dead of there lacks love.

 

[Thana]

No, I'm basing it on the actions of Christian churches in general over the last 2,000 years. I don't think they've been very good, overall. And I'm not surprised why, considering so much focus on metaphysics and beliefs and who begot whom.

You talk about the commandment to love, but interestingly the core Christian prayers don't mention it; but the UU core sources does. They must actually view it as the key commandment, if it's the one and only thing they mention specifically from Christianity.

In Catholic masses I've been to, which is a few hundred, their structure is to always have the Nicene Creed and the Lord's Prayer be said collectively, and have this big event about eating the bread and wine, and other memorized actions, but only a rather small chunk devoted to Bible readings (of which a large part is also not about love or human values) and a small chunk devoted to the priest's sermon, which could be about anything. So, any focus on ethics, ends up being in the far secondary position, for the Catholics in the world, which is the largest individual denomination. Other churches I've briefly been to, have differed to some extent, but the focus was still on all of these metaphysical structures rather than values and ethics and how to make the world a better place.

And for example, to contrast UU and Christianity again, the local UU church here, when you go to their web page, has some statements on their beliefs and then a whole lot of content about charity and social action that they do and such. For the local Catholic Church, however, I can't find anything on their website about anything that benefits people outside of the church. All of those people get together every weekend, and there's less focus on making the world better. I remember the Catholic Church I was raised in, would give a small fraction of it's revenue to charity, and had these small somewhat charitable events once in a while. That's about it. The largest local protestant Christian Church- their website also doesn't really mention charity and action and how to get involved, but rather is proselytizing and statements of belief.

I feel like if the world's 2+ billion Christians, predominantly from the wealthier nations of the world, were to focus their organized congregations on service and love rather than exclusive metaphysics and beliefs, and if they all had calls to action to love unconditionally and do organized charity every week, the world would be so much better.

So some Christians didn't write prayers about love? As I said, It's because love was not in dispute. But God and Jesus being one? That was in dispute.

Christian Churches in general? I can't think of one church that is not involved in charity, That doesn't offer free food with their services, that is not active within the community.

To be honest, I can't really comment about Catholicism. In my opinion they should be treated as a different religion to Protestant Christianity.

My experience, The churches I went to were about healing, prayer, forgiveness, love, understanding and charity. The Pastor always chose a bible story and preached about it, his experience and his message and it usually always had love in it somehow. Loving people, Loving God, It's the only way to keep His commandments and to live a righteous life. Just because some Christians priorities are put elsewhere doesn't mean that the main focus of Christianity is not love.

How about instead of saying the 2+ billion Christians be better, You should say the 2+ billion people should be better. At the end of the day, Christians are still people. Why do you expect more from them than any other person?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

All Catholic parishes are involved with charity, Thana. If it wasn't for Catholicism, we wouldn't have hospitals and universities as we know them. The Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of social services in the world.

 

[dawny0826]

All Catholic parishes are involved with charity, Thana. If it wasn't for Catholicism, we wouldn't have hospitals and universities as we know them. The Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of social services in the world.

To piggy back on this, it's not unheard of in my community for Catholic and protestant chruches to partner on different charitable initiatives. Brother and sisterhood in Christ.

 

[Thana]

All Catholic parishes are involved with charity, Thana. If it wasn't for Catholicism, we wouldn't have hospitals and universities as we know them. The Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of social services in the world.

I'm not disputing that, In fact, I said I can't think of any churches that are not active in the community and charity.

I was just saying that Catholicism should be considered a completely different religion to Protestant Christianity.

 

[Desert Snake]

Agreed.

The Christian is to strive to live a life as per Christ's example - a life of love, forgiveness, charity and outreach.

The Great Commission is to share Christ's love.

As a Christian who is quite fond of the Nicene Creed - I agree that this is a confirmation of WHAT I believe. This is what my faith is grounded in. Faith without works, however, is dead.

Good works are dead of there lacks love.

I think you should post that verse if you are referencing it, I seem to remember I have soundly refuted the meaning that is often ascribed to it. We don't need works, works are useless, all the good works you could ever do are useless compared to faith.