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Featured Christianity vs Baha'i

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    As I see it, Christ was the Messiah and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Messiah promised in the New Testament, the Second Coming. Both Jesus and Baha'u'llah were the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament, but Jesus only partially fulfilled the OT prophecies. Baha'u'llah fulfilled the remainder of the OT prophecies or they will be fulfilled during the Messianic Age as a result of His Coming. Baha'u'llah also fulfilled the New Testament prophecies, the promises of Jesus.
    Christ came to bear the sins of many. That was necessary for humanity, but now that mission has been accomplished.....
    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.....

    So now humanity needs to move on to the next stage of its spiritual evolution, and that is related to what Jesus said:
    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    What I just posted on another thread explains why humanity needs a new Messenger of God in every age:

    According to my beliefs, God has no need for a religion because God has no needs, since God is self-sufficient and self-sustaining. As such, religions are revealed by God through His Messengers solely for human benefit. The following passage describes the nature of religion according to my beliefs.

    “And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

    I believe that there is only one eternal religion of God which has been revealed in various chapters throughout human history. Whenever a Revelation from God has fulfilled its purpose it is renewed. The way it is renewed is that God sends a new Messenger with a new Divine Revelation that is suited to the age in which it was revealed. Humanity and the world we live in is not static but rather changes over time. Why then would religion be static?
     
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    I in no way accept bahai stuff as authoritative.

    Metaphors are subject to wide interpretation,
    they sure are not used in contracts or scientific
    papers for just that reason.

    Ie they need to say what they mean

    For something (purporting to be ) of ultimate importance this metaphor stuff is bonkers
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Of course not, you are not a Baha'i.
    God tests His servants by making them search for and find the hidden meanings. It is not that difficult if one studies the scripture and reads it in context.

    One reason that metaphors are used in scripture is similar to why Jesus spoke in parables.

    One of the methods Jesus employed in communicating His message was through parables. A parable is basically an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. When Jesus started telling parables to the people, His disciples asked the obvious question, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" (Matthew 13:10).

    Jesus Gives A Revealing Answer

    Jesus' answer to the question was quite revealing.

    Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given . . . . And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive, for the heart of this people has grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their heart and turn, so that I should heal them' (Matthew 13:11,14,15).

    Unwillingness on the part of the people to receive Jesus' message of the kingdom was the reason that He taught in parables. The truths of the kingdom of God were heard by them but not understood. It was not because God was hiding the truth from them-it was because they did not want to hear.

    Why Did Jesus Speak in Parables?
     
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  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Can you list the prophecies that you believe Baha'u'llah fulfilled?

    You've probably covered some of this ground with CG Didymus, but I'm left baffled at how you can mistake (IMO) the Holy Spirit sent from heaven with Baha'u'llah, who was clearly a man born on earth.

    This is how scripture describes the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Comforter.
    Acts 2:1-4: 'And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
    And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
    And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
    And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.'


    Later, when speaking to the crowd that had gathered, Peter said this: 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.'
    [Acts 2:38,39.]

    The Holy Spirit (Ghost) is clearly promised to those who repent and are baptised in the name of Jesus Christ, not Baha'u'llah.
     
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  5. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    You do know that is the same accusation Jews imputed to Jesus the Christ.

    Regards Tony
     
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  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    True. But how would Baha'u'llah respond to the accusation?

    Matthew 22:41-45: 'While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
    Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
    He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
    The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?'
    [Psalm 110:1]

    Jesus clearly thinks there is only one Christ, and that Christ is Lord. This same Lord will sit on the right hand of the LORD until the enemies of God are defeated. If Jesus Christ sits there now, then we still await the day when the enemies of Christ are made 'thy footstool'. In other words, Jesus Christ has not been replaced by any other king!
     
    #906 Redemptionsong, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
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  7. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    As if i never heard any of that before.

    It is not that difficult if one studies the scripture and reads it in context.

    Must be super easy. Everyone can do it, and get a different reading.

    Your correct ones would have gotten you burned at the take, time was.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The prophecies that Baha’u’llah fulfilled and how they were fulfilled are in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears.
    I already explained that but I will explain it again. Baha'is also believe that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit sent from heaven but the Comforter is ALSO a Title for the man to whom God sends the Holy Spirit. Since God sent the Holy Spirit to Jesus and Jesus bestowed the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles Jesus is called the Comforter.

    Then later God sent the Holy Spirit to Baha’u’llah, in Jesus' name, so Baha’u’llah was another Comforter.
    That was 2000 years ago, so that was then and now is now. Now the Holy Spirit is conferred through Baha’u’llah, who renewed the Holy Spirit.

    What is it about time that people don’t understand? Time does not stand still. Time moves on so what was said in the past no longer applies to the present time. People seem to understand that the past is gone when it applies to other things, just not when it comes to religion. Why do you think that is?

    Below is what I believe happened. Christians believe that the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost once and for all time.

    Acts 2:2-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    Baha’is also believe that the Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost, but we believe it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have these verses, indicating that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh:

    Acts 2:17-21 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    This is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.

    All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.

    Revelation 6
    12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.…


    “As we look, we find the events recorded (in Revelation), following on in the order predicted.” (Our Day in the Light of Prophecy, Spicer, p. 77.) These events which he listed were as follows:

    1. The Lisbon earthquake, 1755. 1755 Lisbon earthquake
    2. The Dark Day, 1780. New England's Dark Day
    3. The Falling Stars, 1833. The Falling of the Stars

    It is interesting to note that the great star-fall came on the night of 12 November, which is the birthday of Bahá’u’lláh.

    Excerpts from: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

    There is much more detail regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why is there a problem with a different reading? Scriptures can have more than one meaning and more than one meaning can be correct. However, some assigned meanings can be incorrect. How do we know? How can Christians know that the meaning they assign is correct, given Jesus never appointed anyone to interpret the Bible? All the Christians I post to are sure they have the correct meaning, but how can the different meanings Christians assign all be correct given they contradict each other?

    “Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
     
  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @Trailblazer provided a book, written by a Christian who became a Bahai. It is a very good book.

    Here is another list, in Bahai Writings by Shoghi Effendi:

    To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father....
    To Him Isaiah, the greatest of the Jewish prophets, had alluded as the “Glory of the Lord,” the “Everlasting Father,” the “Prince of Peace,” the “Wonderful,” the “Counsellor,” the “Rod come forth out of the stem of Jesse” and the “Branch grown out of His roots,” Who “shall be established upon the throne of David,” Who “will come with strong hand,” Who “shall judge among the nations,” Who “shall smite the earth with the rod of His mouth, and with the breath of His lips slay the wicked,” and Who “shall assemble the 95 outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” Of Him David had sung in his Psalms, acclaiming Him as the “Lord of Hosts” and the “King of Glory.” To Him Haggai had referred as the “Desire of all nations,” and Zachariah as the “Branch” Who “shall grow up out of His place,” and “shall build the Temple of the Lord.” Ezekiel had extolled Him as the “Lord” Who “shall be king over all the earth,” while to His day Joel and Zephaniah had both referred as the “day of Jehovah,” the latter describing it as “a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.” His Day Ezekiel and Daniel had, moreover, both acclaimed as the “day of the Lord,” and Malachi described as “the great and dreadful day of the Lord” when “the Sun of Righteousness” will “arise, with healing in His wings,” whilst Daniel had pronounced His advent as signalizing the end of the “abomination that maketh desolate"
    To Him Jesus Christ had referred as the “Prince of this world,” as the “Comforter” Who will “reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” as the “Spirit of Truth” Who “will guide you into all truth,” Who “shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak,” as the “Lord of the Vineyard,” and as the “Son of Man” Who “shall come in the glory of His Father” “in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” with “all the holy angels” about Him, and “all nations” gathered before His throne. To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.” Identifying His Revelation with the “third woe,” he, moreover, had extolled His Law as “a new heaven and a new earth,” as the “Tabernacle of God,” as the “Holy City,” as the “New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” To His Day Jesus Christ Himself had referred as “the regeneration when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory.” To the hour of His advent St. Paul had alluded as the hour of the “last trump,” the “trump of God,” whilst St. Peter had spoken of it as the “Day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.” His Day he, furthermore, had described as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy Prophets since the world began.”

    Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103



    You can pick any of these in the list, and ask how did Bahaullah fulfill it.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Actually, it is Christians who believe that there is only one Christ, and that Christ is Lord.

    Depending upon how you interpret scripture, maybe Jesus thought there was only one Christ when He walked the earth, but that was then and now is now. Time marches on.

    If by Lord you mean Jesus is God, Jesus never claimed to be God.

    Did the Jews Accuse Jesus of Claiming to Be “God” or “a God”?
     
    #911 Trailblazer, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What should be apparent to anyone who reads the New Testament with care, is that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, and is never the title of a man. Nor is there any indication in the scriptures that any one apart from Jesus Christ is able to baptise with the Holy Spirit.

    The reason that Jesus uses the expession 'another Comforter' is because the Holy Spirit has already been present their midst. Jesus was himself baptised with the Holy Spirit. This does not make the Holy Spirit a man because the man, Jesus of Nazareth, existed prior to baptism!
     
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  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    All these references are to Jesus Christ.
     
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  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The important thing in the debate about the status of Jesus Christ is whether or not He deserves to be followed, worshipped and served. In my opinion, the answer is, unequivocally, Yes.

    What does the first commandment state?
     
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is ALL a matter of how you interpret the verses.... Verses mean different things to different people.

    It is clear to me by reading the verses that the Comforter refers to the Holy Spirit which was sent by the Father to Jesus, and then later sent again by the Father to another person, who I believe was Baha'u'llah.

    The dead giveaway is when Jesus says that the Father shall give you another Comforter and that Comforter will testify and bear witness of Jesus:

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;


    That is exactly what Baha'u'llah did when He referred to Jesus in the following passage.

    We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

    Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

    Why would what was going to happen in the future be in the New Testament, unless it was a prophecy?
    That is your personal interpretation to which you are welcome, but because I know what happened after the New Testament was written, I have more information to go on, so I have a different interpretation, as noted above. You are limited to your personal interpretation of what is in the NT unless you are willing to think outside the box and look at other possibilities.

    Such is the case with every Christian, they are limited to their own personal interpretations of scripture from which they form a belief, although they do not have the same interpretations of the same scriptures, which is the dead giveaway that the same scripture can have more than one meaning, if one thinks logically.
     
  16. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What speaks volumes are not the prophecies that can be attributed to Baha'u'llah, but the prophecies that cannot. It only takes one unfulfilled prophecy to turn the pretender into an antichrist!
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The New Testament covers all time from the birth of Jesus to his return in judgment, and beyond! There are no future dispensations that are not covered by God's Word. He is the first and the last.

    Why would an omniscient God fail to reveal his will to his chosen Messiah?
     
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Well then, that would make Jesus Christ into the antichrist, 100 times over. ;)

    You can say that Jesus will fulfill the unfulfilled prophecies when He returns but that does not count for anything since Jesus has not returned.

    Any prophecies that have not yet been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah are prophecies that refer to the Messianic Age, and since we are only at the beginning of that age, logically speaking we cannot expect that all those prophecies would be completely fulfilled yet. For example:

    Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

    Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

    I consider it ludicrous and rather sad when at Christmastime Christian radio plays the songs about the Prince of Peace and believe the songs refer to Jesus. These prophecies cannot refer to Jesus because Jesus disclaimed being the everlasting Father when He said, “my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28) and Jesus disclaimed being the Prince of Peace when He said, “I came not to send peace, but a sword” (Matthew 10:34). Jesus disclaimed bearing the government upon His shoulder when He said to “rend onto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's” (Mark 12:17, Matthew 22:21). Jesus disclaimed that He would establish a kingdom where he would rule with judgment and justice forever when He said, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36).
     
    #918 Trailblazer, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
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  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, all prophecies are fulfilled according to scriptures.
     
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  20. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Choose one of them and show in how in your view it refers to Jesus. And I will show how in my view it refers to Bahaullah.
     
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