Christianity vs Baha'i

[Trailblazer]

Okay, there are the stories, and within those stories there are miraculous events. But what about the story of Adam and the story about Noah. I don't see any Baha'i saying what is written in the Bible is historically accurate. And, I don't see anything in the Bible story that would make either Adam or Noah manifestations. So what is the Baha'i story about Adam and Noah that shows that they are manifestations?

Here is what I could find about Adam:

“In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muḥammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, ‘I am all the Prophets’, inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun. “ Selections From the Writings of the Báb. p. 125

Adam in the Baha’i Faith

Adam is the name given in the Qur'án to the first known Manifestation of God. No significant further information is available. One of the early Bahá'ís wrote to ask Bahá'u'lláh whether there had been Manifestations of God before Adam, and Bahá'u'lláh's reply seems to indicate that there were, but writing was not then in use, so different methods were required for that time.

Adam - Bahaipedia, an encyclopedia about the Bahá’í Faith

Allegorical statements and legends surround the historical Manifestation of God, Adam

"It can, therefore, be confidently stated that the teachings of the Faith name Krishna as a Manifestation of God. In light, however, of the other statements of the Guardian, in which he stresses the paucity of our information about the beginnings of Hinduism, we should be cautious not to assert the historical accuracy of specific stories related about Krishna. A similar case where allegorical statements and legends surround the figure of a known Manifestation of God is that of Adam."

(On behalf of the Universal House of Justice, at Krishna, historiography of; Meaning of "Qayyúm" )

The story (and timing) of Adam and creation is symbolic

"Concerning the story of Adam and Eve, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, in 'Some Answered Questions', explains that it cannot be taken literally. You are asked to refer to pages 122-126 of this book for the symbolic meaning of the story."

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 13, 1986, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1683)

"As to the record in the Bible concerning Adam's entering paradise, His eating from the tree and His expulsion through the temptation of Satan: These are all symbols beneath which there are wonderful and divine meanings not to be calculated in years, dates and measurement of time. Likewise, the statement that God created the heaven and the earth in six days is symbolic. We will not explain this further today. The texts of the Holy Books are all symbolical, needing authoritative interpretation."

(Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 219-220)

Revelation of story

"With regard to your question about the creation story, we are asked to quote the following from an unpublished Tablet of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá.

'Know ye that the Torah is that which was revealed in the Tablets to Moses, may peace be upon Him, or that to which He was bidden. But the stories are historical narratives and were written after Moses, may peace be upon Him.'

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 13, 1986, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1683)

Adamic Cycle
Bahá’u’lláh is the Culmination of the Adamic Cycle and the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle
"The Adamic Cycle inaugurated 6000 years ago by the Manifestation of God called Adam is only one of the many bygone cycles. Bahá’u’lláh, as you say, is the culmination of the Adamic Cycle. He is also the Inaugurator of the Bahá’í Cycle.

"Obviously there must have been Prophets and Manifestations in the ages preceding the Adamic Cycle. This is supported by the following statement revealed by Bahá’u’lláh.

'And now regarding thy question, "How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the Kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?" Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.'

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer, March 13, 1986, in Lights of Guidance, no. 1683)

See also

• Age of universe
• Adamic Cycle

Adam and Eve
Regarding Adam and Eve, see Chapter 30 of Some Answered Questions .

For Biblical references, see Genesis, Chapters 1-5

Each Manifestation of God represents Adam; the first believer of each Faith represents Eve; the new believers are their progeny
Note: the following is (at least presently) unauthenticated, so until verified, it can only be regarded as pilgrims' notes)

Regarding thy question as to the beginning of Creation: Know thou that the Truth (GOD) has eternally ever been, and so also have His creatures, for there is no beginning either for the Truth (God) or for the creatures. According to the bodies in the contingent world, the "beginning" mentioned in the Holy Scriptures means the beginning of the Manifestation, and "creation" signifies the Second Spiritual Birth: as Christ says, "You must be born again." [Ed. - John 3:7 ] There is no doubt that the beginning of this Spiritual creation was the Manifestation Himself, for each Manifestation of the Divine Manifestations is the Adam (of His time,) and His first believer is Eve, while all the souls who are born of the Second Birth are His children and decendents. In the New Testament it is recorded : "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." Again in John 1:13" Which was born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Baha. Dwight Barstow collection, BC#286B, revealed Oct. 24, 1903. Translated in the Holy City. Translation certified to by Mirza Fareed Ameen, Dec.26, 1903.; Pub. by C.e. Sprague, 3502 Lake Ave., Chicago, Ill. Apr. 19, 08.; BC#286C; see https://bahai-library.com/lovejoy_dwight_barstow_collection )

Notes
The above might be confirmed by the following utterance attributed to Muhammad, and confirmed by 'Abdu'l-Bahá:

"I and ‘Alí, we are the Father and Mother of this people."

(Bahá'í Scriptures, no. 914 (p. 479))

as well as the words of 'Abdu'l-Bahá as He continues:

"“Adam” signifies the overflowing Reality, distributive, active, which represents the appearance of the Names and Qualities of God, the Divine conditions (or stations); whereas Eve is the passive Reality, taking, dependent, receptive, existing through the Divine Names and Qualities. Briefly, such are the least of the mysteries of the composition of the Greatest Name upon the stone of the Divine ring."

(Bahá'í Scriptures, no. 914 (p. 479))

Adam - Bahai9

(Continued on next post)

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, there are the stories, and within those stories there are miraculous events. But what about the story of Adam and the story about Noah. I don't see any Baha'i saying what is written in the Bible is historically accurate. And, I don't see anything in the Bible story that would make either Adam or Noah manifestations. So what is the Baha'i story about Adam and Noah that shows that they are manifestations?

Here is what I could find about Noah:

“In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muḥammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, ‘I am all the Prophets’, inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun. “
Selections From the Writings of the Báb. p. 125

“For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, inasmuch as previous to his belief in God and his acceptance of His Manifestation, he had set his affections on the things of the world, such as attachment to earthly goods, to wife, children, food, drink, and the like, so much so that in the day-time and in the night season his one concern had been to amass riches and procure for himself the means of enjoyment and pleasure. Aside from these things, before his partaking of the reviving waters of faith, he had been so wedded to the traditions of his forefathers, and so passionately devoted to the observance of their customs and laws, that he would have preferred to suffer death rather than violate one letter of those superstitious forms and manners current amongst his people. Even as the people have cried: “Verily we found our fathers with a faith, and verily, in their footsteps we follow.” 28”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 154-155

“Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’” 3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.” 4

And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 7-9

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, but no one has those records. And who trusts the genealogy in the NT about Jesus... besides Christians.

Someone might have those records, I don't really know.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here is what I could find about Noah:

“In the time of the First Manifestation the Primal Will appeared in Adam; in the day of Noah It became known in Noah; in the day of Abraham in Him; and so in the day of Moses; the day of Jesus; the day of Muḥammad, the Apostle of God; the day of the ‘Point of the Bayán’; the day of Him Whom God shall make manifest; and the day of the One Who will appear after Him Whom God shall make manifest. Hence the inner meaning of the words uttered by the Apostle of God, ‘I am all the Prophets’, inasmuch as what shineth resplendent in each one of Them hath been and will ever remain the one and the same sun. “
Selections From the Writings of the Báb. p. 125

“For instance, consider that among the Prophets was Noah. When He was invested with the robe of Prophethood, and was moved by the Spirit of God to arise and proclaim His Cause, whoever believed in Him and acknowledged His Faith, was endowed with the grace of a new life. Of him it could be truly said that he was reborn and revived, inasmuch as previous to his belief in God and his acceptance of His Manifestation, he had set his affections on the things of the world, such as attachment to earthly goods, to wife, children, food, drink, and the like, so much so that in the day-time and in the night season his one concern had been to amass riches and procure for himself the means of enjoyment and pleasure. Aside from these things, before his partaking of the reviving waters of faith, he had been so wedded to the traditions of his forefathers, and so passionately devoted to the observance of their customs and laws, that he would have preferred to suffer death rather than violate one letter of those superstitious forms and manners current amongst his people. Even as the people have cried: “Verily we found our fathers with a faith, and verily, in their footsteps we follow.” 28”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 154-155

“Among the Prophets was Noah. For nine hundred and fifty years He prayerfully exhorted His people and summoned them to the haven of security and peace. None, however, heeded His call. Each day they inflicted on His blessed person such pain and suffering that no one believed He could survive. How frequently they denied Him, how malevolently they hinted their suspicion against Him! Thus it hath been revealed: “And as often as a company of His people passed by Him, they derided Him. To them He said: ‘Though ye scoff at us now, we will scoff at you hereafter even as ye scoff at us. In the end ye shall know.’” 3 Long afterward, He several times promised victory to His companions and fixed the hour thereof. But when the hour struck, the divine promise was not fulfilled. This caused a few among the small number of His followers to turn away from Him, and to this testify the records of the best-known books. These you must certainly have perused; if not, undoubtedly you will. Finally, as stated in books and traditions, there remained with Him only forty or seventy-two of His followers. At last from the depth of His being He cried aloud: “Lord! Leave not upon the land a single dweller from among the unbelievers.” 4

And now, consider and reflect a moment upon the waywardness of this people. What could have been the reason for such denial and avoidance on their part? What could have induced them to refuse to put off the garment of denial, and to adorn themselves with the robe of acceptance? Moreover, what could have caused the nonfulfilment of the divine promise which led the seekers to reject that which they had accepted? Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5”
The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 7-9

Thanks, why don't you take the rest of the night off... you deserve it. I'll comment on this tomorrow.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Christ to Reign on David’s Throne

The Old Testament certainly prophesied that Jesus would rule on David’s throne. There is no question about that (Psalms 132:11, Psalm 89:3-4, 2Samuel 7:12-13, Isaiah 9:6-7, cf Luke 1:31-32).

The question that must be raised is not what these prophecies say (that Christ would sit on David’s throne) but when and where were they to be fulfilled. The answer to this question and the fulfillment of the throne promise is found in Acts 2:25-36.

The Throne of David - Throne Prophecies Fulfilled at Christ’s Ascension

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

“The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away.”Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56

Jesus was a Messiah, but He is not the Messiah of the end days. I take no issue when Christians say that Jesus Christ will reign forever, I only take issue when Christians say Jesus is going to return and rule on earth, because that belief is NOT supported by the Bible.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

But of course Christians always have a way out of accepting what Jesus said.

What you have written does not negate the claim that Jesus Christ is the one and only Messiah. There is sound reason to believe that Jesus Christ will not set foot on the earth again, but that does not mean that he will not return on the clouds to gather the flock [see 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17].

The return of Jesus Christ on the clouds of heaven is mentioned in a number of passages, for example Acts 1:9-11.

What concerns me more than the manner of Christ's return, are the spurious claims that attempt to link alien persons with the prophecies of the true Messiah.

Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem was he?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus was a Messiah, but He is not the Messiah of the end days. I take no issue when Christians say that Jesus Christ will reign forever, I only take issue when Christians say Jesus is going to return and rule on earth, because that belief is NOT supported by the Bible.

Jesus Christ must be the Messiah of the ends days if he is the Messiah that appeared on earth and was the subject of prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.

Acts 2:25-27. 'For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

David foresaw the Lord his salvation, the Holy One. There was only one Lord between him and God the Father [Psalm 110:1]. It is this one Lord that is mentioned by Paul in Ephesians 4:5, 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism,'.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus Christ must be the Messiah of the ends days if he is the Messiah that appeared on earth and was the subject of prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.

Acts 2:25-27. 'For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

David foresaw the Lord his salvation, the Holy One. There was only one Lord between him and God the Father [Psalm 110:1]. It is this one Lord that is mentioned by Paul in Ephesians 4:5, 'One Lord, one faith, one baptism,'.

This shows that the NT teaches that Jesus' body did not stay dead and rot away as Baha'is claim. Maybe they were wrong. Maybe they were lying, but then the NT would not be the Word of God, just a bunch of false words of men, and that is not what the Baha'is are saying. They, somehow, want it to be true but not literally true.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you have written does not negate the claim that Jesus Christ is the one and only Messiah.

That is not a biblical claim, it is a Christian claim. Just because you BELIEVE that Jesus was the only Messiah that does not make it true. It is all based upon interpretation of the Bible and people interpret it differently. What makes your interpretation the correct one? Moreover, since Christians interpret the Bible differently, leading to different beliefs about the return of Christ and the afterlife, that is proof positive that there can be more than one interpretation of verses.

There is sound reason to believe that Jesus Christ will not set foot on the earth again, but that does not mean that he will not return on the clouds to gather the flock [see 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17].

How exactly do you envision that happening, I mean in reality? And what is going to happen to everyone else, or doesn't that matter?

The return of Jesus Christ on the clouds of heaven is mentioned in a number of passages, for example Acts 1:9-11.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

As I said before, Bible verses can have more than one interpretation. I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

“But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105

As for the other verses that refer to the Son of man in the clouds, please refer to this thread I started a few months ago:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

What concerns me more than the manner of Christ's return, are the spurious claims that attempt to link alien persons with the prophecies of the true Messiah.

Baha'u'llah was not born in Bethlehem was he?

What does that have to do with anything? I already told you I believe that Jesus was a Messiah, but Messiah is just a title, and there is no reason to think that Jesus would be the Messiah of the end times the Jews have been awaiting, because He did not fulfill the prophecies for the return of Christ and there would be no way for Jesus to fulfill them since he never planned to return to earth.. The way these prophecies were fulfilled by Baha'u'llah was clearly delineated in the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears and some of those prophecies are depicted in this short video:

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus Christ must be the Messiah of the ends days if he is the Messiah that appeared on earth and was the subject of prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.

But Jesus was not the subject of ALL the prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures. In fact, Jesus only fulfilled some of them, and not the ones for the Messianic Age.

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

“It is said in the Holy Books that Christ will come again, and that His coming depends upon the fulfillment of certain signs: when He comes, it will be with these signs. For example, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” 1 Bahá’u’lláh has explained these verses in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. 2 There is no need of repetition; refer to it, and you will understand these sayings.

But I have something further to say upon this subject. At His first coming Christ also came from heaven, as it is explicitly stated in the Gospel. Christ Himself says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” 3

It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although apparently He came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming He came from heaven, though apparently from the womb; in the same way, also, at His second coming He will come from heaven, though apparently from the womb. The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming, as we said before.

The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible. What is even more strange is that Christ said: “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” 6 Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal. They are fully explained in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 110-112

 

[Trailblazer]

This shows that the NT teaches that Jesus' body did not stay dead and rot away as Baha'is claim.

I do not see why you think that these verses show that.

Acts 2:25-27. 'For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

That is not a biblical claim, it is a Christian claim. Just because you BELIEVE that Jesus was the only Messiah that does not make it true. It is all based upon interpretation of the Bible and people interpret it differently. What makes your interpretation the correct one? Moreover, since Christians interpret the Bible differently, leading to different beliefs about the return of Christ and the afterlife, that is proof positive that there can be more than one interpretation of verses.

It's not about my interpretation! My interpretation of certain passages has changed over time. This whole issue is about Truth. If there is one God, as we both believe, then there is one ultimate Truth. God must know what He intends His words to mean. This is why Jesus said that 'scripture cannot be broken'. The words of God have been woven in such a way that only one truth is intended. The challenge is to be led by the faultless Spirit of God into all truth. That is only possible with faultless faith!

The resurrection of Jesus was made known to the twelve. And on one occasion, over five hundred were together witness to his resurrection [1 Corinthians 15:6]. If the resurrection is true, then Jesus is alive now, and occupies the position in heaven that was promised to him. From his throne is sent the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 2:7,8. 'Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.'

Christ's work on earth is conducted by the 'brethren' of Christ, those that walk by Christ's Spirit in love and truth. There is only one avenue for this Spirit to come to the Body of Christ, and that, according to scripture, is through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no need for more human 'manifestations' because the Holy Spirit suffices.

Ephesians 5:23. 'For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.'

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not about my interpretation! My interpretation of certain passages has changed over time. This whole issue is about Truth. If there is one God, as we both believe, then there is one ultimate Truth. God must know what He intends His words to mean. This is why Jesus said that 'scripture cannot be broken'. The words of God have been woven in such a way that only one truth is intended. The challenge is to be led by the faultless Spirit of God into all truth. That is only possible with faultless faith!

Christ's work on earth is conducted by the 'brethren' of Christ, those that walk by Christ's Spirit in love and truth. There is only one avenue for this Spirit to come to the Body of Christ, and that, according to scripture, is through faith in Jesus Christ. There is no need for more human 'manifestations' because the Holy Spirit suffices.

Baha'u'llah wrote that there is only one faith of God that is revealed in every age. One can think of it as various chapters of the Book of God. Christianity was one chapter and the Baha'i Faith is a later chapter, but all came from the same God through His Messengers.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

"Immmerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

I consider it illogical and arrogant to think that there is only one true religion and it is Christianity, because that would mean all the other great religions are false and 71% of the world population is doomed to hell. What kind of a loving God would have such an arrangement?

As I view it, Christians are locked into a "Jesus is the only way for all time" and "Jesus is all we will ever need" belief, based upon a misunderstanding of the Bible. They believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to "live inside" of Christians, whereas Baha'is believe that God sent the Holy Spirit in every age through His Messengers, who we call Manifestations of God.

According to Baha'i beliefs, the Advocate/Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but the Advocate/Comforter can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus. Then later God sent another Comforter in Jesus' name.

I believe that in the following verses Comforter and Spirit of truth are referring to Baha’u’llah:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus, bore witness of Jesus, and glorified Jesus.:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Jesus did not have to spell it out and say “I am preparing the way.” It is obvious He was preparing the way for someone who would come after Him, because he referred to Him as the Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Finally, Baha’u’llah’s mission was to unite humanity into one fold.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

 

[Skywalker]

Which has the better beliefs about God?

While I am familiar with Christian belief, please feel free to say while you feel Christianity is the correct belief to have.

The little I know about the Baha'i religion comes mostly from these forums.

However, I think I'm correct in thinking that according to Baha'i all should become Baha'i because it has the better understanding/knowledge of God.

If you think this is true, why? What is better about your understanding? Why should Christians convert to Baha'i? Or do you see Christianity, the beliefs, the knowledge of God being equal to Baha'i? So there is nothing to be gained by a Christain converting to Baha'i?

The doctrine of hell in Christianity makes sense because God is love but He is also just. God made a way for everyone.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Baha'u'llah wrote that there is only one faith of God that is revealed in every age. One can think of it as various chapters of the Book of God. Christianity was one chapter and the Baha'i Faith is a later chapter, but all came from the same God through His Messengers.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

"Immmerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 136

I consider it illogical and arrogant to think that there is only one true religion and it is Christianity, because that would mean all the other great religions are false and 71% of the world population is doomed to hell. What kind of a loving God would have such an arrangement?

As I view it, Christians are locked into a "Jesus is the only way for all time" and "Jesus is all we will ever need" belief, based upon a misunderstanding of the Bible. They believe that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to "live inside" of Christians, whereas Baha'is believe that God sent the Holy Spirit in every age through His Messengers, who we call Manifestations of God.

According to Baha'i beliefs, the Advocate/Comforter is a Title for the man who brings the Holy Spirit, but the Advocate/Comforter can also be thought of as the Holy Spirit since it is the Bounty of God that comforts people. God sent the Comforter/Holy Spirit when He sent Jesus. Then later God sent another Comforter in Jesus' name.

I believe that in the following verses Comforter and Spirit of truth are referring to Baha’u’llah:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, *he* shall bear witness concerning me;

John 16:14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus, bore witness of Jesus, and glorified Jesus.:

“We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86

Jesus did not have to spell it out and say “I am preparing the way.” It is obvious He was preparing the way for someone who would come after Him, because he referred to Him as the Comforter and the Spirit of truth.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Finally, Baha’u’llah’s mission was to unite humanity into one fold.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

It does not matter how well you tell the story, the ears are closed.

You told it well though.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

The doctrine of hell in Christianity makes sense because God is love but He is also just. God made a way for everyone.

But that WAY was not Christianity for everyone.

 

[Redemptionsong]

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Baha’u’llah did everything Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do.

John 10:16 is spoken by Jesus about the Jews and Gentiles. The promised Comforter is the Holy Spirit [John 14:26], sent from the Father through the Son to the believer. There is only one fold because in Christ (the one shepherd) Jews and Gentiles are one body.

Baha'u'llah was one man. He was not the fold of all Jews and Gentiles that make up the true Church.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20. 'And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.'

The ministry of reconciliation was not given to Baha'u'llah but to the Church, the body of Christ.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Which has the better beliefs about God?

While I am familiar with Christian belief, please feel free to say while you feel Christianity is the correct belief to have.

The little I know about the Baha'i religion comes mostly from these forums.

However, I think I'm correct in thinking that according to Baha'i all should become Baha'i because it has the better understanding/knowledge of God.

If you think this is true, why? What is better about your understanding? Why should Christians convert to Baha'i? Or do you see Christianity, the beliefs, the knowledge of God being equal to Baha'i? So there is nothing to be gained by a Christain converting to Baha'i?

I think Baha'i is a beautiful religion, but a little too closely related to Islam an anti-gay, so I just couldn't convert. I like the theology better than Christianity overall though.

 

[Skywalker]

But that WAY was not Christianity for everyone.

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except through me."

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father except through me."

When Jesus said that it was true, that is why He said it. However, that verse only applied to the Dispensation of Jesus, and that is what Christians completely fail to understand. Moreover, they cannot even understand the concept of time and that time marches on and things change, because they have no logical abilities, just beliefs that have been drummed into them.

Let's say I had a small child and I told him he could only ride a tricycle. That does not mean that when he grows up he cannot ride a ten speed or even a motorcycle?

Time marches on and people and the world change, so the needs of humanity change over time. That is why God has to send a new Messenger with a new message. What the Bible says about being the truth we should follow was true when it was written, but after that more scriptures were revealed by God that superseded the Bible message.

I believe that Jesus was the Only Way to the Father for a former age. That belief is based upon Dispensations, and that each successive Dispensation abrogates all the Dispensations that preceded it.

Dispensation

1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
3. a divinely appointed order or age:

e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

I do not believe that the gospel of Jesus has been abrogated because the Word of God can never be abrogated. It is only the Dispensation of Jesus that has been abrogated.... That means by an arrangement of God the divine ordering of the affairs of the world is now according to the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not according to the gospel of Jesus.

It really is quite simple. Every time God sends a new Messenger (Manifestation), His Revelation supersedes all the Revelations that have come before it. A Dispensation is the divine ordering of the affairs of the world, and that can be only according to one Manifestation at a time. Once a Manifestation of God has completed His Mission on earth and revealed scriptures, what He revealed is pertinent only until the next Manifestation of God appears; and then He completes His Mission and His scriptures are pertinent until the next Manifestation of God appears.

Once the Mission is completed, it is completed, as Jesus said:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Once the Mission of Jesus was completed and Christianity fulfilled its purpose for humanity, there was no reason for Jesus to remain in this world or to return to this world. God always sends another Messenger, and religion is renewed in order to suit the circumstances of the age in which He appears. The new Messenger always brings a new remedy that is needed for the age in which He appears.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Trailblazer]

2 Corinthians 5:18-20. 'And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.'

The ministry of reconciliation was not given to Baha'u'llah but to the Church, the body of Christ.

It does not really matter what happened during the Dispensation of Jesus or how we were reconciled to God back then. We are no longer living in that Dispensation, so it does not apply to us anymore.

#559 Trailblazer, 23 minutes ago

The past is gone and now we are living in a new age, the age ushered in by the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

#45 Trailblazer, Today at 1:04 PM