Christianity vs Baha'i

[Trailblazer]

However, He also said many times, He is doing the work of the Father who sent Him, and without Father He cannot do anything.

And that means that Jesus was not God, because He differentiated Himself from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

What is weird is how I post from earlier pages then catch up to myself here on the last page..

I have no idea how you keep track of all the posts. The only way I can do it is to keep copying the post notifications into a Word document and editing it as I answer them. Let me know if you have a better way.

 

[Trailblazer]

Eventually, Christ will return and judge the world.

I believe Christ has already returned and this is Judgment Day.

The Day of Judgment

 

[Skywalker]

It is not wrong for Jesus if at times, He called Himself God. However, He also said many times, He is doing the work of the Father who sent Him, and without Father He cannot do anything.

What is meant by "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"? | CARM.org

What is meant by "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"?
In order to understand what is meant by the phrase "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, " we have to first understand a few basic biblical principles. First of all, God is a Trinity. This means that the single being who is God is expressed in three distinct, simultaneous persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, the Word, who became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1, 14). Therefore, Jesus has two distinct natures. He is both God and man. As a man, it was necessary that he be born of a woman and therefore born under the Law (Galatians 4:4). Since he was under the Law, he was obligated to love God and worship Him. It says in Deuteronomy 6:5 that we are to love the Lord our God, and in Deuteronomy 6:13 we are told, "You shall fear only the Lord your God; and you shall worship Him, and swear by His name." So, Jesus had to obey the Law, and he had to worship God the Father. Therefore, we see that Jesus was a man who had to fulfill the law, which included worshiping God. But, because he is also the Son then he is the Son by relation to the Father. Now we can understand why the text would say "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

• Romans 15:6, "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
• 2 Corinthians 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort."
• Ephesians 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ."
• 1 Peter 1:3, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

So when we see the phrase "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," we can now understand that it's speaking of the Trinity and how Jesus, the word in flesh, who was a man required to keep the Law, would have someone he would call God, according to Deuteronomy 6:13, who would be considered the God and Father of Jesus.

 

[Trailblazer]

If Daniel 7:14,15 refers to Baha'u'llah, it's odd that he isn't mentioned in Philippians 2:9,10:

'Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus [not Baha'u'llah] every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.'

That was true then but now is now. Why would Baha'u'llah be mentioned in the Bible? He had not come yet, and nobody knew His name at that time.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Do you understand that time marches on, it is not static? There was Moses before Jesus, but after Jesus came Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

It's mighty strange that Baha'u'llah should suddenly claim the position of Christ when scripture clearly designates Jesus as the one and only Christ.

Baha'u'llah did not claim the position of Christ, He claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit.

Of course, you may believe, as some do, that Jesus was totally misguided when he made the claim that the Hebrew scriptures all pointed to him as the Messiah.

Luke 24:25-27.

'Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scripture the things concerning himself.'

That is simply your interpretation of the verses above. I agree that Christ suffered and entered into His glory but He did not say that He was the Messiah, you are saying that.

It is a Baha'i belief that Christ was the Messiah, but the Jews did not understand the signs; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

“It is said in the Holy Books that Christ will come again, and that His coming depends upon the fulfillment of certain signs: when He comes, it will be with these signs. For example, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” 1 Bahá’u’lláh has explained these verses in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. 2 There is no need of repetition; refer to it, and you will understand these sayings.

But I have something further to say upon this subject. At His first coming Christ also came from heaven, as it is explicitly stated in the Gospel. Christ Himself says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” 3

It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although apparently He came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming He came from heaven, though apparently from the womb; in the same way, also, at His second coming He will come from heaven, though apparently from the womb. The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming, as we said before.

The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible. What is even more strange is that Christ said: “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” 6 Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal. They are fully explained in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 110-112

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

 

[Skywalker]

That was true then but now is now. Why would Baha'u'llah be mentioned in the Bible? He had not come yet, and nobody knew His name at that time.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Do you understand that time marches on, it is not static? There was Moses before Jesus, but after Jesus came Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah did not claim the position of Christ, He claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit.

That is simply your interpretation of the verses above. I agree that Christ suffered and entered into His glory but He did not say that He was the Messiah, you are saying that.

It is a Baha'i belief that Christ was the Messiah, but the Jews did not understand the signs; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

“It is said in the Holy Books that Christ will come again, and that His coming depends upon the fulfillment of certain signs: when He comes, it will be with these signs. For example, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven…. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” 1 Bahá’u’lláh has explained these verses in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. 2 There is no need of repetition; refer to it, and you will understand these sayings.

But I have something further to say upon this subject. At His first coming Christ also came from heaven, as it is explicitly stated in the Gospel. Christ Himself says: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” 3

It is clear to all that Christ came from heaven, although apparently He came from the womb of Mary. At the first coming He came from heaven, though apparently from the womb; in the same way, also, at His second coming He will come from heaven, though apparently from the womb. The conditions that are indicated in the Gospel for the second coming of Christ are the same as those that were mentioned for the first coming, as we said before.

The Book of Isaiah announces that the Messiah will conquer the East and the West, and all nations of the world will come under His shadow, that His Kingdom will be established, that He will come from an unknown place, that the sinners will be judged, and that justice will prevail to such a degree that the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and the kid, the sucking child and the asp, shall all gather at one spring, and in one meadow, and one dwelling. 4 The first coming was also under these conditions, though outwardly none of them came to pass. Therefore, the Jews rejected Christ, and, God forbid! called the Messiah masíkh, 5 considered Him to be the destroyer of the edifice of God, regarded Him as the breaker of the Sabbath and the Law, and sentenced Him to death. Nevertheless, each one of these conditions had a signification that the Jews did not understand; therefore, they were debarred from perceiving the truth of Christ.

The second coming of Christ also will be in like manner: the signs and conditions which have been spoken of all have meanings, and are not to be taken literally. Among other things it is said that the stars will fall upon the earth. The stars are endless and innumerable, and modern mathematicians have established and proved scientifically that the globe of the sun is estimated to be about one million and a half times greater than the earth, and each of the fixed stars to be a thousand times larger than the sun. If these stars were to fall upon the surface of the earth, how could they find place there? It would be as though a thousand million of Himalaya mountains were to fall upon a grain of mustard seed. According to reason and science this thing is quite impossible. What is even more strange is that Christ said: “Perhaps I shall come when you are yet asleep, for the coming of the Son of man is like the coming of a thief.” 6 Perhaps the thief will be in the house, and the owner will not know it.

It is clear and evident that these signs have symbolic signification, and that they are not literal. They are fully explained in the Kitáb-i-Íqán. Refer to it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 110-112

26: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST AND THE DAY OF JUDGMENT

The prophet like Moses is a reference to Jesus, but Jesus is God.

Is Jesus just a Prophet or God? | CARM.org

Is Jesus just a Prophet or God?
Baha’i Viewpoint on Jesus

1. Jesus Christ is Divine and that He also pre-existed before His human form. At the same time, Baha’is believe that there are three levels of being: humankind, Manifestations or Prophets of God, and God.
2. The various prophets that formed the various religions of the world are equal. There is no superiority or inferiority among them. So Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, Moses, and Abraham are all equal.
3. All of the various prophets of God are seen as pre-existent. So this means that Abraham, Moses, and Buddha were not born as normal humans, but were pre-existent in the spiritual realm.

Biblical Viewpoint

1. Christians believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, so we cannot say that there is a distinction between Jesus and God. We believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.
   1. John 1:1-3 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
   2. John 1:14: “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
2. As Christians, we do see Moses and Abraham as great men whom God used to make known His will to mankind, but they both sinned and both died, so we do not see them as divine in any way or as being equal to Jesus.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Mark 7:21 doesn't agree with the teachings of Bahai. Baha'i and the Nature of Man | CARM.org

I do not agree with your view.

The characters were real but the stories about them fictional? The things about the prophets, like being thrown into a lion's den and not being eaten and having their friends cast into a furnace and not getting burned, were fictional? But their prophecies were true? Way too much picking and choosing going on.

You are free to quote that is what the Baha'i writings have said about those verses.

You will not find that explanation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I view the biblical canon as primarily Jewish and then expounded upon for gentiles but not directly in the canon. What we have in the canon is directed to people already converted or already Catholic, and its in such archaic and weird language that people can't always figure it out. For example if somebody reads Isaiah or Jeremiah they will likely ask someone else what it means. That's not textbook style writing.

Language does indeed change.

Might be time for a world language to be taught alongside the mother tongue, sound like a good idea to me.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The whole question was that without knowing about a messenger that was to come 2000 years later, what was a Christian to believe? I think they would read Revelation and have no doubt that the Lamb was Jesus. Plus, since they believed he had resurrect and alive, that he was the one returning.

That is Faith CG. A Baha'i also may think the Most Great Peace should be soon too, but I see that is a distant future happening now.

I fear that even the Lesser Peace may be quite some time away. I would hope not, there will not be much to work towards if it lingers too much longer, but we do not see how God's plans work, to many centuries later.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I do not agree with your view.

And neither would Jesus.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I believe Christ has already returned and this is Judgment Day.

The Day of Judgment

There's a unity and cohesiveness to scripture that enabled Jesus to say, 'scripture cannot be broken' [John 10:35]. This fits with 2 Peter 1:20, that says that 'no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation'. In other words, scripture is circular and complete.

If you believe in the omniscience of God, then you will believe that God knows the future, and is able to lay out a broad plan of His redemptive work within this present heaven and earth. This means that God is able to reveal information that shows the whole of the redemptive process, from the creation of the first heaven and earth to the creation of a new heaven and earth [Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 21:1].

Genesis 1 is a prologue to the whole Bible, where, we are told, each day represents a thousand years of time on this present earth. To see evidence of this you should read 2 Peter 3:8, which tells us; 'But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.' The rabbis used a different verse [Psalm 90:4], to reach the same conclusion. In the Talmud, Sanhedrin 97b, Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches: 'The world is to exist six thousand years. In the first two thousand there was desolation; two thousand years the Torah flourished; and the next two thousand years is the Messianic era, but through our many iniquities all these years have been lost.' [Note '11) He should have come at the beginning of the last two thousand years; the delay is due to our sins.'] Of course, to those who believe the New Testament, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, did come, but wasn't recognised by the religious authorities.

If one accepts that days 5 and 6 of God's prophetic week are the Messianic era, then it becomes clear that scripture is pointing people to the Messiah as the Redeemer of mankind. To ensure that the Redeemer is not mistaken there are numerous prophecies in the Hebrew scriptures to identify the Messiah. The most obvious is ancestry, which flows from Adam through Abraham to King David. We also know that the Messiah is to be of the tribe of Judah, and that he is to be born in Bethlehem. Do any of these prophecies find fulfilment in Baha'u'llah, or in Bab?

You appear to be arguing that the dispensation of Jesus Christ ended with his ascension, and thereafter there was a void when no messengers were present to preach redemption. This, of course, is nonsense. Pentecost marked the beginning of the Church, and the epistles give us the teaching that applies to the Church. This Church Age started at Pentecost and continues to this day. There has never been a new dispensation to change the teachings that are found in the epistles.

That leaves just one book, Revelation, which gives more detail about the coming judgment of Jesus Christ. And nowhere in Revelation do we find a message that is not already prophesied elsewhere in scripture.

[There's a more detailed list of Messianic prophecies in post 361.]

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, so, as I said Bahaullah did not write it was not Isaac.

The rest of that link, is just the opinion of a Bahai. Not what actually Bahaullah wrote. We only consider Bahai Scriptures officially represent Bahai view.

The Guardian confirms that the record in the Qur'án and in the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that it was Ishmael, and not Isaac as stated in the Old Testament, whom Abraham was to sacrifice, is to be upheld.

The Guardian Shoghi Effendi said it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Those verses in practice are describing the manifestation of the Bab and Bahaullah. For the Christians such verses did not matter, until the time of manifestion came. And now, all can know what is their interpretation. Their interpretation is now come. This is the Bahai view.

That the "Two Witnesses" are Muhammad and Ali? That the "Three Woes" are Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah? That the beasts and dragons are the Umayyads and Abbasids? That the number or mark of the beast, 666, is the year 666AD minus 5 to make it 661AD the start of the Umayyad dynasty? That the tribulations continue after "The Christ" has come and has died? That neither the Umayyad or the Abbasids started in 621AD, the year of the Hegira, and ended in 1844, the year The Bab declared, yet they were suppose to last 1260 days which gets converted to years, but not solar years, but lunar years, which then begins in 621AD and lasts until 1844? Yes, these interpretations and the ones in Bill Sears book work very well to satisfy Baha'is.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Guardian Shoghi Effendi said it.

The Gaurdian didn't write such a thing though.
What you quoted are the writings of an individual who is a secretary of the Universal House of Justice.

See at the end of it says:

.(From a letter dated 19 July 1981 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer)


First, Universal House of Justice is not infallible with regards to interpretation. This letter is also not written by Universal House of Justice.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, only one other thread right now because they suckered me into posting in it, stuff about sex, not my favorite subject.

Football? You and my husband, but I am glad to see other people enjoying things.
Thanksgiving is the only day I get anything really good to eat! And I go all out, for only two people.

Sex and religion? Yeah, no controversy there. And I get that you don't like football, but even the Seahawks?

 

[CG Didymus]

They, the Baha'is, say Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus are manifestations. And they use verse after verse as prophecies about their guy, Baha'u'llah. Why? The characters were real but the stories about them fictional? The things about the prophets, like being thrown into a lion's den and not being eaten and having their friends cast into a furnace and not getting burned, were fictional? But their prophecies were true? Way too much picking and choosing going on.

You are free to quote that is what the Baha'i writings have said about those verses.

You will not find that explanation.

Do Baha'is believe Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus are manifestations? Do they believe the Bible stories about these people are literally true? Do they use verses from the Bible, usually out of context, as prophecies about Baha'u'llah? Do Baha'is believe the stories about Daniel and his friends, about him being thrown to the lions and not eaten and them thrown into a furnace and not being burned to death?

I really, really doubt it. But if you think there are "explanations" to the contrary, I'd love to hear them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@CG Didymus

When it comes about authority, the Writings of Bahaullah has certainly the authority, in comparison with a letter written by an individual on behalf of Universal House of Justice, or even a letter on behalf of the Gurduan.


This is what Bahaullah wrote:


"Thus the Torah issued from the tongue of Moses. The same is true of other Holy Scriptures: all were revealed by the tongues of Prophets and Messengers but, the real Speaker[14] in all these Holy Books is the One true God....
It is now, therefore, established and confirmed that the station of ‘Sacrifice of God’ was, according to past Books,[15] given to Isaac by Abraham and that very same station is, according to Divine Revelation, Ishmael’s in the Qur’ánic Dispensation."

Tablet to Hájí Mírzá Kamálu'd-Dín

 

[CG Didymus]

The whole question was that without knowing about a messenger that was to come 2000 years later, what was a Christian to believe? I think they would read Revelation and have no doubt that the Lamb was Jesus. Plus, since they believed he had resurrected and was alive, that he was the one returning.

A Baha'i also may think the Most Great Peace should be soon too, but I see that is a distant future happening now.

I fear that even the Lesser Peace may be quite some time away. I would hope not, there will not be much to work towards if it lingers too much longer, but we do not see how God's plans work, to many centuries later.

The question was saying that Revelation and the rest of the NT, at the very least, implies it is Jesus that conquered death and is alive and is coming back... that no other person ever had the power to forgive sins. Everything about the Jesus story, if true, is saying it is him that is returning. And when he returns he does away with evil and evil people right then. He doesn't get thrown in prison and die without establishing the Kingdom of God on Earth. I see no reason why a Christian would think anything else.

For Baha'is, right from the start they change the story. Jesus is dead and there is no Satan. Once you establish that as "fact", then nothing that the NT says or what Christians believe as true means anything. It all changes.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have no idea how you keep track of all the posts. The only way I can do it is to keep copying the post notifications into a Word document and editing it as I answer them. Let me know if you have a better way.

No. I get several pages behind and it takes forever to catch up. And that's just on one thread. So, if there more than one thread, sometimes I just start with the last couple of pages and move on from there.

 

[CG Didymus]

Language does indeed change.

Might be time for a world language to be taught alongside the mother tongue, sound like a good idea to me.

Regards Tony

Gee, that's a good idea. Where did you get such a good idea? Except, I don't know about down under, but in the U.S. every new generation makes up new words and gives new meanings to old words. Actually, you guys have some very unique words yourselves.