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Featured Christianity vs Baha'i

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I see all are foretold. Each had a Message and a Station that God gave to them.

    Each are important in the progression of Faith.

    Regards Tony
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The thing about the Bahai faith, and indeed, Islam, is that they both make claims about the Bible, and about Jesus, that are not consistent with the biblical message as a whole. But only a careful and thorough study of the text of the Bible makes this apparent.

    The Second Coming of Christ is said to be mentioned 318 times in the 260 chapters of the New Testament and it occupies one in every twenty-five verses from Matthew to Revelation. [R.A.Torrey]

    What appears to take place at the Second Coming is a return in two phases. In the first phase, the Lord descends from heaven on the clouds [See Acts 1:11; Matthew 24:30]. This is followed by a 'rapture' of the dead and living saints, taking them away from the vengeance that occurs on earth. At a time unspecified, following God's vengeance, the Lord then descends to earth with his saints. This is why the Second Coming is likened to the days of Noah and to the days of Sodom.

    It may well be that Christ in his glory has not the exact appearance of the man Jesus. It says in Zechariah 14:1-4 that 'his feet shall stand that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the East', but it is possible that this is metaphorical, given that Christ in resurrection has a spiritual body.

    What cannot be claimed legitimately is that Christ has come back to Jerusalem already. If He had come already then there would have been a judgment on the earth. In Isaiah 61:2, the work of the suffering servant is followed by 'the day of vengeance', something that Jesus intentionally avoided mentioning in the synagogue in Nazareth [see Luke 4:18,19]. Why? Because the vengeance belongs to the return, or Second Coming, following a period of mercy and grace [2 Peter 3:9,10].
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That might be true, because the Christ spirit was supposed to return, but it was never slated by God to be the same man Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago, and that is where the Christians erred. Jesus never promised to return Himself. There is not one verse wherein Jesus said he would return in the same body. The return of Christ was slated to be another man with a new name.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe that Jesus Christ has a spiritual body, but spiritual bodies do not exist on earth, they exist in heaven, which is a spiritual world. Spiritual bodies do not come back to earth.
     
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  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @Redemptionsong

    Bahais believe, return of Jesus, was the same way, as return of Elijah as another person (John).
    You must be familiar with this. When Jesus said to apostles that Elijah is returned, but they did not recognize him, and treated him badly. The apostles understood, Jesus was talking about John. The story is in the Bible.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Christ was not prophesied to return to Jerusalem.

    18. Lightning from the East

    I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

    Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

    “I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

    The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

    The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

    This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

    The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’.(The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2). The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

    William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

    Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

    It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

    The Lord was prophesied to set His throne in Elam, from which the Messiah would rule.
    Elam is modern-day Persia, where Baha’u’llah was born.

    Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the LORD.

    When that verse was recorded Elam existed and the verses for the coming of the Lord refer to the latter days.

    Jeremiah 49:39 But it shall come to pass in the latter days, that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the LORD.

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  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    As you have probably figured out, Baha'is don't view the NT and the rest of the Bible like Christians, except, that is, liberal Christians. But, what they do to Christianity isn't all that much different than what Christians did to the Jews and how the Jews interpret the Bible. Christians essentially do away with Judaism, and Baha'is do away with Christianity. They believe God has replaced Christianity with new teachings. First with the teachings of Muhammad in the Quran and now with the teachings of Baha'u'llah in the Baha'i Faith. If Paul was ever trustworthy, it doesn't matter. The teachings of the NT they believe were for that time and that place. But, they also believe the Church has added teachings into the original message of Jesus and has misinterpreted the message of Jesus. So, really, for them, Christianity is a long way off track from what God's message was and should have been. And for them, not to worry, because Baha'u'llah has come and brought a new message for this day and age... which, for me, has nothing to do with the born-again Christian message and is much more related to Shia Islam.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is believe that the judgment has come on earth and this is the Day of Judgment.

    The Day of Judgment

    Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

    … so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.

    The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

    In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.
    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

    “Dost thou believe thou hast the power to frustrate His Will, to hinder Him from executing His judgment, or to deter Him from exercising His sovereignty? Pretendest thou that aught in the heavens or in the earth can resist His Faith? No, by Him Who is the Eternal Truth! Nothing whatsoever in the whole of creation can thwart His Purpose. Cast away, therefore, the mere conceit thou dost follow, for mere conceit can never take the place of truth. Be thou of them that have truly repented and returned to God, the God Who hath created thee, Who hath nourished thee, and made thee a minister among them that profess thy faith.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 220


    “Say: There is no place of refuge for you, no asylum to which ye can flee, no one to defend or to protect you in this Day from the fury of the wrath of God and from His vehement power, unless and until ye seek the shadow of His Revelation. This, indeed, is His Revelation which hath been manifested unto you in the person of this Youth. Glorified, then, be God for so effulgent, so precious, so wondrous a vision.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257
     
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  9. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Do Baha'is believe Adam was a historical person? Was he the first human that God created? No, I don't think you believe that, since Baha'is believe God used some type of evolution and humans, at different points in time, looked like various types of other creatures.

    Do Baha'is believe the Adam and Eve story at all? Yes, symbolically, not literally. We don't inherit things from fictional characters. So if there wasn't a real first man named Adam, then we didn't inherit anything from him. But wait, despite believing in all the other religions, especially Hinduism, Baha'is make Adam a manifestation and call the time prior to the Baha'i cycle the Adamic cycle? Why? He's not the first human. You don't even know if he was real. The story we have about him does not make him out to be anything close to a manifestation. But I know, you don't care. It's all in the past. A past that is rewritten by Baha'u'llah. Christianity vs. Baha'i? The Baha'i Faith makes it a meaningless relic of the past. But Baha'is try to play games and say how much they love Jesus and the Bible... A Bible that has fictional stories in it that has led people to have superstitious beliefs about God and Jesus? Who is the real Jesus? He might as well be fictional. What do you know about him that we know is true?
     
  10. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    @CG Didymus

    Bahais believe Adam was a historical person. He was the first human, who started the Adamic Cycle. The Adamic Cycle was 6000 years, and ended by manifestation of the Bab. When Baha'u'llah came, He started a new cycle, which will be 500,000 years. Just as Adam was a very unique manifestation in the sense that He started a new cycle, likewise Bahaullah is special, because He began a new cycle, after the previous cycle ended.
    Bible starts speaking from the time of Adam, as beginning of that world. But before Adam, there were other Worlds (cycles).
     
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  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Once again, your interpretation does not fit with the coherent and consistent message found in the scriptures.

    Revelation 5:13. 'And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.'

    God the Father, and the Lamb, are worshipped in heaven and on earth. Clearly there is only one Father, and one Lamb, the mediator. Who do you think is the one Lamb?
     
  12. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    If Jesus really came back to life, it blows the whole Baha'i religion to pieces. They can't have Jesus being physically alive. 'Cause then, next he will be the one returning to meet his followers in the air. But they also deny Satan. They can't have an evil spirit roaming around.

    But for non-literal believing Christians, the Baha'i interpretations fit much better with modern scientific thinking. Dead for three days and Jesus comes back to life? No way. He ascends into the clouds? He can appear and disappear? And who wants an evil being like Satan to be real? And why would the all-knowing God create such a being? Yes, Christians explain why, but Baha'is explain why he's not real.

    Even though, all the major religions are different, Baha'is explain away why there are differences and show why they believe they all came from the one true God. Christians make all other religions false and only their beliefs about Jesus and God correct. And most Christians even show how their group is the only one correct out of all the other so-called "Christian" groups. Things are a mess. Baha'is have a way to make all the past religions okay while at the same time have a way to explain why they are different and all wrong. They bring in a new message that makes it possible to start fresh.

    For Christians, all they have to do is dump all their previously held beliefs and believe that "Christ" has returned in the form of a Persian nobleman that has taken the title of Baha'u'llah. And that his teachings will bring peace and harmony to the world. But, like other Christians that have become Baha'is, you are not losing your Jesus, you're gaining Krishna, Buddha, Muhammad and the others. You don't have to preach hellfire for sinners anymore. You don't have to preach the end of the world is coming. It has already come. But what do you gain? Have you read about the Baha'i laws and plans for a world government? I have lots of questions about how the Baha'is are going to bring about peace on Earth. What do you think?
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'is do not make Adam a Manifestation. We believe Adam was a Manifestation because that is what Baha'u'llah wrote:

    “Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb. I testify before God that each one of these Manifestations hath been sent down through the operation of the Divine Will and Purpose, that each hath been the bearer of a specific Message, that each hath been entrusted with a divinely-revealed Book and been commissioned to unravel the mysteries of a mighty Tablet. The measure of the Revelation with which every one of them hath been identified had been definitely fore-ordained. This, verily, is a token of Our favor unto them, if ye be of those that comprehend this truth….

    And when this process of progressive Revelation culminated in the stage at which His peerless, His most sacred, and exalted Countenance was to be unveiled to men’s eyes, He chose to hide His own Self behind a thousand veils, lest profane and mortal eyes discover His glory. This He did at a time when the signs and tokens of a divinely-appointed Revelation were being showered upon Him—signs and tokens which none can reckon except the Lord, your God, the Lord of all worlds. And when the set time of concealment was fulfilled, We sent forth, whilst still wrapt within a myriad veils, an infinitesimal glimmer of the effulgent Glory enveloping the Face of the Youth, and lo, the entire company of the dwellers of the Realms above were seized with violent commotion and the favored of God fell down in adoration before Him. He hath, verily, manifested a glory such as none in the whole creation hath witnessed, inasmuch as He hath arisen to proclaim in person His Cause unto all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 74-75
     
    #273 Trailblazer, Nov 24, 2020
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  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    But even as a spiritual being, Christ was on earth in the midst of men.

    1 Corinthians 10:3,4. 'And [Moses and the Israelites] did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.'
     
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  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm? It is easy to see how Jesus is the child and the son that is given. And all Christians have to do is say that this will be fulfilled when he comes back... like he promised. But how do Baha'is make Baha'u'llah the child and the son?

    So the gospel writers told a "story"? Implying that it is a fictional story? So how did the tomb get empty? How did they get people to spread the stories of Jesus being seen? When did these stories first start getting spread? Were the apostles still alive and supporting the false story? Or, were they all dead and people started the rumors about Jesus having appeared to the apostles? Of course, you don't know. But it is so easy for you to say.
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I believe the Lamb was Jesus. Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God and the return of the Lamb.

    Baha’u’llah means Glory of God in Arabic and the following verses refer to Him.

    Revelation 21:22-23 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    I believe Jesus was the "one mediator" for His Dispensation, but there has been a mediator between God and man for every Dispensation.
     
  17. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    And you believe it? And you investigated the truth of this for yourself? And you had no questions? I would still call it "Baha'is make the fictional character Adam a manifestation because their prophet said so." Did Krishna come before Adam? If not how about the other incarnations of Vishnu that came before Krishna? Was Adam over 900 years old when he died? What religion did he found? Nothing, none, zero... he's a character in the many characters in the Jewish Bible. They don't make him into a manifestation of God, so why do Baha'is? I know, because Baha'u'llah said so. Did Jesus? Did Moses? Did Muhammad? King David was the "Lord's Anointed" why not make him a manifestation? He even wrote some God inspired things?
     
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    Again, it is a title. Someone calls himself "Yahweh" does that mean he is God? I know several people named "Jesus". Does that mean they are The Jesus? Revelation implies that the Lamb is Jesus and that it is Jesus, as the Lamb of God, that is returning. Read it. Revelation isn't that long.
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Christ was a spiritual being in a flesh body when He walked the earth.

    Baha'is believe that when Christ ascended to the spiritual world (heaven) He took on another form, a spiritual body. Call it a glorified body of you like, but it is not physical, because there is nothing physical in the spiritual world. Baha'is believe that we will all have a body like that after we die and go to the spiritual world.

    “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
     
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  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between the spirit of prophethood that both Elijah and John had, and the unique position of the only begotten Son of God [John 3:18]. There is only one mediator between God and men; and only one mediator between the the old and new testaments. There is only one man that has come from God as the Lamb [John 1:36], and as the Saviour [Luke 2:11].
     
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