Christianity v. Secular Humanism

[Subduction Zone]

Of course it does. You can read more about Bible slavery here: http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

Hardly a reliable source. If the only sources that you can find are Liars for Jesus (Christian apologist sources) then it does not look very good for you. You would need actual biblical scholars to refute the various points brought up here. Do they agree with you? It does not appear to be the case.

 

[McBell]

If I've "no right dictate to you who I may and may not judge or what I may and may not judge", then why did you send me that statement, telling me what to do and judging me?

We are free to judge whomever we want about whatever we want whenever we want.

You arbitrary declarations otherwise are meaningless, as I showed when I did the same to you as you did to me.

 

[McBell]

Of course it does. You can read more about Bible slavery here: http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

You already had your *** handed to you about slavery in post #87.
Now since that did nothing to deflate your ego...

 

[McBell]

The whole slavery thing shows that the Bible does NOT contain consistent, absolute (non-subjective) morals.

Of course it does. You can read more about Bible slavery here: http://christianthinktank.com/qnoslave.html

ROTFLMAO

Do you understand that you just proved my point?

 

[night912]

I'm not sure what your point is, we both agree that all people have personal, subjective moral systems.

If you want to attack the Bible's moral system, you first have to agree with me that it contains consistent, absolute (non-subjective) morals.

That's illogical. First of all, I attack the bible's moral system because I disagree with it. Second, it's apparent that you are ignorant of what absolute, objective, and subjective means. Absolute does not mean non-subjective.

All that being said, when it comes to slavery, I do agree that the bible is consistent about it. It does consistently teach that slavery is morally right, it's okay for a human being to own another human being as property.

So my point is, human morality does not come from the bible. You and I are both evidence of that. We both agree that slavery is immoral, that's completely opposite of what the bible teaches. The difference between you and I is, I accept that the bible teach that slavery is not immoral, while you cannot accept that fact.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How many slaves do you own?

None.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hardly a reliable source. If the only sources that you can find are Liars for Jesus (Christian apologist sources) then it does not look very good for you. You would need actual biblical scholars to refute the various points brought up here. Do they agree with you? It does not appear to be the case.

I don't appreciate your ad hominem against someone who posted 30,000 thoughtful, careful words about Bible slavery.

What are your academic credentials regarding world religions? Why should we listen to you? I have a Religion Bachelor's with an emphasis on NT studies from a secular university. You?

 

[BilliardsBall]

That's illogical. First of all, I attack the bible's moral system because I disagree with it. Second, it's apparent that you are ignorant of what absolute, objective, and subjective means. Absolute does not mean non-subjective.

All that being said, when it comes to slavery, I do agree that the bible is consistent about it. It does consistently teach that slavery is morally right, it's okay for a human being to own another human being as property.

So my point is, human morality does not come from the bible. You and I are both evidence of that. We both agree that slavery is immoral, that's completely opposite of what the bible teaches. The difference between you and I is, I accept that the bible teach that slavery is not immoral, while you cannot accept that fact.

Do you disagree with all the Bible's morals or just some?

I disagree with none of the Bible's morals, including its teachings on slavery.

It is immoral for me to own slaves because it is unlawful to own slaves. Had I been a Roman citizen in ancient times, I could own slaves according to the Bible. What you are missing:

1) The Bible contains slavery laws--which peoples were slaves under theocratic Israel (a nearly 1,000 year reign before the first diaspora)? Be specific.

2) Did you know that voluntarily slavery/servitude was an economic exchange? Safety and provisions in exchange for work?

3) Can you discern/find any Bible laws in the OT or principles in the NT that describe slavers as needing to be just, kind, generous, non-abusive, etc.?

 

[BilliardsBall]

We are free to judge whomever we want about whatever we want whenever we want.

You arbitrary declarations otherwise are meaningless, as I showed when I did the same to you as you did to me.

If that is true, how does that align with your prior post exclaiming I have no right to judge?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You already had your *** handed to you about slavery in post #87.
Now since that did nothing to deflate your ego...

When you discuss or argue topics with someone, is your goal to learn from the exchange or to demonize and humiliate your opponent?

I've participated in academic and informal debates and co-chair academic panels, still. Even during heated exchanges, do we use terms like "you had your butt handed to you" and "your ego is preventing you from seeing truth" or do we use facts and theorizing during our exchanges?

 

[BilliardsBall]

ROTFLMAO

Do you understand that you just proved my point?

Which point do you think I just proved by sending you to a multi-thousand word article demonstrating how Bible slavery/servitude functioned?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Do you disagree with all the Bible's morals or just some?

I disagree with none of the Bible's morals, including its teachings on slavery.

It is immoral for me to own slaves because it is unlawful to own slaves. Had I been a Roman citizen in ancient times, I could own slaves according to the Bible. What you are missing:

1) The Bible contains slavery laws--which peoples were slaves under theocratic Israel (a nearly 1,000 year reign before the first diaspora)? Be specific.

2) Did you know that voluntarily slavery/servitude was an economic exchange? Safety and provisions in exchange for work?

3) Can you discern/find any Bible laws in the OT or principles in the NT that describe slavers as needing to be just, kind, generous, non-abusive, etc.?

So slavery used to be moral, but now it isn't
But the Bible's pronouncements are "consistent, absolute (non-subjective) morals."

It seems you have contradicted yourself here. I'm pretty sure I pointed this out to you the last time we had a discussion about slavery.




Sounds really just, kind and non-abusive to you?

Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property."



This doesn't sound like an economic exchange or voluntary servitude to me. Does it to you?

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Which point do you think I just proved by sending you to a multi-thousand word article demonstrating how Bible slavery/servitude functioned?

None.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't appreciate your ad hominem against someone who posted 30,000 thoughtful, careful words about Bible slavery.

What are your academic credentials regarding world religions? Why should we listen to you? I have a Religion Bachelor's with an emphasis on NT studies from a secular university. You?

Hardly an ad hominem. Creationists should not use logical fallacies by the way. I am not impressed with a one man apologist.

 

[night912]

Do you think that it's immoral for a person to own another person as property, like in an episode of Roots? It doesn't matter if I believe in the bible or not, you believe that biblical slavery is not immoral, and you get your morals from the teachings of the bible. So let's hear your defense as to why slavery is not immoral.

I would not make such a defense.

I disagree with none of the Bible's morals, including its teachings on slavery.

So you admit that you have immoral beliefs and proud of it?

It is immoral for me to own slaves because it is unlawful to own slaves. Had I been a Roman citizen in ancient times, I could own slaves according to the Bible.

So according to you, biblical morality is not absolute. And you have no sense of morality at all.

It's not unlawful to hate color people or be a racist. So answer these questions. Why do hate color people? Why are you racist?

I disagree with none of the Bible's morals, including its teachings on slavery.

Yes you do. You disagree with the bible, you believe that slavery is immoral. I'll prove right now. Look what said below.

It is immoral for me to own slaves because it is unlawful to own slaves.

Do you disagree with all the Bible's morals or just some?

No, I don't disagree with all the bible's morals. On top of my head, I can think of two examples.

I agree with the bible that it's immoral to commit murder.

I disagree with the bible, I think slavery is immoral.

 

[night912]

1) The Bible contains slavery laws--which peoples were slaves under theocratic Israel (a nearly 1,000 year reign before the first diaspora)? Be specific.

I agree that there are slavery laws, I never said that it didn't. But a better that is not in the bible is a law that forbids people from owning slaves. That one law alone could have eliminated the need for all those slavery laws. The bible law that encourage Hebrews to own nonHebrews as property forever.

2) Did you know that voluntarily slavery/servitude was an economic exchange? Did you know that involuntary slavery was not an economic exchange?
Safety and provisions in exchange for work? Provided provisions just enough to avoid starvation and getting beaten as long as you don't die within two days is not safety.

Work was not exchanged for safety, hence the need for the laws protecting slave owners. Slave owners were protected for beating their slaves on the body.

3) Can you discern/find any Bible laws in the OT or principles in the NT that describe slavers as needing to be just, kind, generous, non-abusive, etc.?

Can you discern/find any Bible laws in the OT or principles in the NT that describe slavers to be protected from being unjust, unkind, ungenerous, abusive, etc?

Don't worry, I found some for you.

Exodus 21
4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. Definitely unkind for not allowing his family to go free with him. Definitely not being generous by not letting his family go with him.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Definitely abusive.

That's why slaves are usually just being whipped on the body in order to avoid accidentally hitting an eye blinding the slave or knocking out a slaves tooth. Also it's less likely that a slave would die before two days.

 

[night912]

What are your academic credentials regarding world religions? Why should we listen to you? I have a Religion Bachelor's with an emphasis on NT studies from a secular university. You?

Can you show us your evidence to support that you do have a bachelor's degree in religion? The reason for me asking this is because this whole time you still haven't acknowledged that the bible makes a clear distinction between Hebrew slaves and non Hebrew slaves and that some laws only concern Hebrew slaves. I just think that a bachelor's degree is required for someone to know that.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So you admit that you have immoral beliefs and proud of it?


So according to you, biblical morality is not absolute. And you have no sense of morality at all.

It's not unlawful to hate color people or be a racist. So answer these questions. Why do hate color people? Why are you racist?



Yes you do. You disagree with the bible, you believe that slavery is immoral. I'll prove right now. Look what said below.




No, I don't disagree with all the bible's morals. On top of my head, I can think of two examples.

I agree with the bible that it's immoral to commit murder.

I disagree with the bible, I think slavery is immoral.

Yes, thanks for reminding me of my prior post. I've changed my mind since that prior post, I think slavery is moral. On what basis do you condemn me? "It's obvious slavery is wrong" doesn't work for me, when talking about metaphysics such as morals or justice.

Thanks,

 

[BilliardsBall]

I agree that there are slavery laws, I never said that it didn't. But a better that is not in the bible is a law that forbids people from owning slaves. That one law alone could have eliminated the need for all those slavery laws. The bible law that encourage Hebrews to own nonHebrews as property forever.



Work was not exchanged for safety, hence the need for the laws protecting slave owners. Slave owners were protected for beating their slaves on the body.



Can you discern/find any Bible laws in the OT or principles in the NT that describe slavers to be protected from being unjust, unkind, ungenerous, abusive, etc?

Don't worry, I found some for you.

Exodus 21
4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free. Definitely unkind for not allowing his family to go free with him. Definitely not being generous by not letting his family go with him.

20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property. Definitely abusive.

That's why slaves are usually just being whipped on the body in order to avoid accidentally hitting an eye blinding the slave or knocking out a slaves tooth. Also it's less likely that a slave would die before two days.

See other post. I know why I believe what I believe about slavery, but you keep making "see, X is immoral!" posts without telling me on what basis you are deriving your morality itself. I'm genuinely curious regarding your answer.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Can you show us your evidence to support that you do have a bachelor's degree in religion? The reason for me asking this is because this whole time you still haven't acknowledged that the bible makes a clear distinction between Hebrew slaves and non Hebrew slaves and that some laws only concern Hebrew slaves. I just think that a bachelor's degree is required for someone to know that.

It's not required to have a Bachelor's. I'm aware that Hebrews were to be set free on jubilee years, for example, while Gentiles were not. I could have derived that knowledge from growing up Jewish or reading the Hebrew scriptures.