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christianity the first religion?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by dudley thoth, Apr 9, 2004.

  1. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    The idea that Native Americans are pantheistic is falce... I also wouldn't say we are behind the times, rather we are time tested and time proven. ;)

    As I am not Lakota I cant say 100% what all their beliefs are... but here goes with what I do know.

    Wakan Tanka is the Lakota name for the creator of all things. The spirits under him were created by him but are not gods... (this is a misunderstanding, that any powerful spirit in Native belief is a god. Think of them more allong the line of Arch-angels)
    as for section 4 they are the aspects of man.
    the part of the soul that will rejoin Wakan Tanka
    the part of the soul that can become a ghost.
    the mind and knowledge of the person
    and the physical part of the person.
    Also not gods but as everything is part of Wakan Tanka and Wakan Tanka is part of everything it can get confusing for some.

    I do not see the similarity... Yimir was a giant that was killed and used to make the world.. the others are allong similir lines but also use thier bodies to form creation...
    Wakan Tanka has no physical form and his method for creation was more akin to the christian god than the others.

    as for zero chiefs.... be wary of anyone selling Native American spirituality... its strictly taboo to use religion to make money. As for chief.. that was a name given by white settlers not a native thing. Anyone calling themselves chief should be looked at with suspicion. (although the leaders of tribal councils may on occasion, take the title when adressing the press as it is easily reccognised by society. For the most part it isn't used.) Wakan Tanka is sometimes refered to zero of the 16 mysteries... before and seperate from them.

    hope this helps

    wa:-do
     
  2. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    To Painted Wolf

    Regarding the Pantheism contention.
    What within Creation is not regarded to be Wakan Tanka?
    or am i missing the point?

    Pantheism (Gk. pan, 'all' and theos, 'god'), the concept that all that exists is, in some way, ultimately identical with the divine reality. In some forms of the doctrine the universe is dervived from the being of God; in other systems the universe in all its parts constitutes the divine reality as its sum total(HarperCollins Dictionary of Religion, 1996).

    mmm? you see, i would accept that "the universe is derived from the being of God" and yet distinct. My individuality is a gift of God. God has (to this some Christians might object) created me (and the universe) from his own being (not 'Ex Nihlo' ,that is, 'from nothing', a Christian belief i've yet to find in the Bible). What i am ceased to be God, in the moment of my creation, having as i do an autonomous (which needs to be God centred in order to function properly) nature. argghh! it all sounds so technical! i'm sorry. Consider this paragraph as nothing more than a mere rant!

    Spirits, gods and angels can, i think, be interchangable terms.
    for example, the spiritual beings called angels in the O.T are 'elohim' which means 'gods'.

    I believe that God is distinct from creation (would this apply to Wakan-Tanka?). to misquote Obi-Wan-Kenobi, He " surrounds us and binds us and holds the universe together."
     
  3. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Concerning 'the living being who was slain, and whose body parts formed creation' motif: according to the Rig-Veda, the entire universe, throughout time, is a single being known as Purusha, the Primal Man. He is ruler of immortality, and all beings, whether mortal or immortal, form his body of a thousand heads, a thousand eyes, and a thousand feet. 'Viraj' (the female principle?) was born from Primal Man (if so compare Genesis 2:21-23), and from Viraj man is born again. At the beginning of time the gods sacrificed Purusha as a sacrifice to himself. The divine Vedic texts sprang into existence, along with earth and sky and space. Every living creature and the four orders of Hindu society were born from the divided parts of his body. The sacrifice of purusha is the archetype for all Vedic sacrifice and holds the universe together. Also, along with the creation of the four vedas and the four social classes, Purusha is associated with the four directions of space.
    According to Nordic mythology, the first living creature that arose out of Ginnungagap 'yawning void' was the cow Audumla. Four rivers (compare Genesis 2:10) of milk flowed from Audhumla's teats which nourished the frost giant Ymir. While Ymir slept ( the sleeping motif yet again) he produced a sweat and a man and a woman emerged from his left hand. he also rubbed his feet together and gave birth to a son. Odin, along with his two brothers Vili and Ve, fatally wounded Ymir who bled so much he drowned all his children in a terrible flood (Universal Deluge motif). Only the frost giant Gangleri survived the flood by taking refuge with his family in the hollow trunk of a tree (Ark motif. tree of salvation?) The three gods cast the dead giant into Ginnungagap and began to create the world from his flesh. Ymir's Skull became the sky and was held in place by four dwarves, Nordri (north), Sudri (south), Austri (east), and Vestri, the cardinal directions. His teeth and bones were transformed into rocks and crags, and his hair was transformed into trees. From Ymir's brows the gods created Midgard for mankind, storm clouds were produced from his brains, and sparks shot up into the heavens as stars.
    In the 2nd Book of Enoch, the mythical theme of the cosmic being whose body is transformed into creation, appears to be reversed and reapplied to the creation of Adam. The following translation is taken from 'The Lost Bible' by J.R Porter:

    On the sixth day i commanded my wisdom
    to create man out of the seven components:
    first, his flesh from earth;
    second, his blood from dew and from the sun;
    third his eyes from the bottomless sea;
    fouth, his bones from stone;
    fifth, his reason from the mobility of angels
    and from clouds;
    sixth, his veins and hair from the grass of the earth;
    seventh, his spirit from my spirit and from
    the wind...
    And on earth i assigned him to be a second
    angel, honoured and great and glorious...
    And i assigned to him a name from the four components:
    from East (anatole)- A
    from west (dusme)-D
    from North (arktos)-A
    from South (mesembria)-M (2001, p.23)
     
  4. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    >Spirits, gods and angels can, i think, be interchangable terms.
    >for example, the spiritual beings called angels in the O.T are 'elohim' >which means 'gods'

    Then is christianity, Judaism panthistic? Catholisim would almost certanly be as they pray to the idols of saints and Jesus....

    Wakan Tanka, the creator is a part of everything and everything is a part of Wakan Tanka...
    you say you believe that god created everything from himself yet is distinct from creation.... It is much the same with Wakan Tanka.

    to misquote Yoda... " Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you. Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!

    wa:-do
     
  5. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Rally Ho!

    the Catholic faith could be said to be Polytheistic.
    However, we need only trust Jesus.
     
  6. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    asuming of cource that your christian ;)

    wa:-do
     
  7. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    The Primary message is for everybody.

    Jesus said; "The Kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the Good News!" (Mark 1:15 N.I.V)
     
  8. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    The Primary message is for everybody.

    Jesus said; "The Kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the Good News!" (Mark 1:15 N.I.V)
     
  9. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    *shrug*
    If it works for you.... :)

    wa:-do
     
  10. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    YODA IS THE GREATEST!!!!!!!! I love the force in star wars, its so taoist, zen, mystical, martial artical, pagan, christian, native american. ITS EVERYTHING!!! I would however compare it mostly to taoism and zen. Native american too, but mostly taoism. I think the force is very true and i believe it to be so. It does have other titles as well, Chi, Ki, Qi. George Lucas was a very wise man. They are jedi, I am vigil. MUAHAHAHA!!!

    When I talk about the flow of nature in my Vigil principles, it very much resembles the force. So i guess you could say that being a Vigil, is sorta like being a jedi. Without the powers and stuff of course. But oh man i wish!!!
     
  11. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Paul writes to some Christians who have accepted the primary message (Good news) of Jesus...

    In the past you were spiritually dead because of your disobedience and sins. At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers of space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God. Actually all of us were like them and lived according to our own desires, doing whatever suited the wishes of our own bodies and minds. In our natural condition we, like everyone else, were destined to suffer God's anger.
    But God's mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great, that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God's grace that you have been saved. In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him in the heavenly world. He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace (kindness) in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus. For it is by God's grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God's gift, so that no one can boast about it. (Ephesians 2:1-9 GNB)

    It's a beautiful message. Really. Truly.

    And yep, it really does work for me!

    Love

    Fudley Dudley
     
  12. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    mine is not an angry god...
    I am not spiritually , infact I'm more spirtually aware than I ever was as a christian.
    It is by creators grace and love for all creation that I need not worry about having to be saved.

    wa:-do
     
  13. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    How should God respond to evil?
     
  14. Runt

    Runt Well-Known Member

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    Some religions (myself included) recognize creation and destruction as polar aspects of one force that we call God. And that "good" and "evil" are human terms used to define aspects of creation that we like and aspects of destruction that we dislike. I don't think there are really any repercussions coming from God in response to these things... there is however, cause and effect (I slap you, the effect is you may get angry and slap me back.... "karma" playing out immediatly), so that alone is an incentive not to do the things we (or rather, others) disapprove of...

    And then there is personal responsibility. Whether or not God judges us and punishes us for our actions (and I think not), we still have to live in this world with other humans... and if we regularly engage in acts of destruction, we have to live with the consequences. Therefore, it is best to veer toward the side of creation...
     
  15. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    define evil?
    I'm certen we have differnt viewpoints... we have different cultures. ;)

    Ps. I agree with Runt...
    creator is the source of all things 'good' and 'evil'.
    I don't need a metephorical mr. spooky to represent 'evil' I see it every day.

    wa:-do
     
  16. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I agree with both Runt and Painted Wolf.

    Good and evil are only objects of our own perceptions.
     
  17. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Hello Runt.

    the reason why i believe God to be wholly Good is forthcoming. Please bear with me
     
  18. dudley thoth

    dudley thoth Member

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    Jesus said, "They are wrong about sin, because they do not believe in me; they are wrong about what is right...and they are wrong about judgement, because the ruler of this world has already been judged." (John 16:9-11 GNB)

    At first i assumed that you had a problem with the anger (in response to evil) of God because you regarded it to be alien to his nature, but it appears that i was wrong as you are now attributing evil directly to the creator himself.

    As our definition of evil may differ, could you share with me an example (or two) of the way the Creator (in you tradition) may manifest his evil?
     
  19. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    Dudley thoth-

    Of cource John would have Jesus say that... he wants to spread his religion...

    As for attributing evil to creator, on in the sence that it made the world in ballance with itself.

    My point was that creator in my traditon does not judge people to go to either heaven or hell... we have no hell.
    What you consider evil, isn't nessisarily evil to me.

    wa:-do
     
  20. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    According to Joseph Campbell the first resurrection stories began with early man, the hunter. Man felt guilty about having to kill to eat. He had rituals and believed the animal came back to life. The planters also felt guilty about killing to eat and had similar rituals and believed the plants came back to life. I believe we still have this guilt. The first religion many have been based on this guilt.
     
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