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Featured Christianity, Islam and Baha'i and allegations the Jews

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by danieldemol, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Christianity, Islam and Baha'i and allegations some of the Jews tried to kill Jesus.

    Since the precise details of what really happened to Jesus seem not to have survived from history other than from polemical discourse.

    Does it make sense to charge some of the Jews with either being murderers or attempted murderers given there is no historical evidence that the polemics are true (in my opinion)?

    Would you similarly charge someone else with such a serious crime on the basis of a religiously motivated polemic?
     
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  2. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Thirty thousand Jews were crucified the Romans. Fact. The streets were lined with tortured men by the Romans. Fact. Titus slaughtered, massacred and destroyed. Fact. For some reason nobody (except me) ever brings this up when anyone suggests that maybe Jesus is more of an aggregate person than an individual. Its an actual possibility! I suspect the hush has to do with some Catholic secret vow or some vow the Jews had to take or its a dirty thing to say...or for some reason we aren't given. Its weird to me that I have to be the one to bring it up, as if nobody remembers. The way things are set up, too, the Catholic books make it look like the Jews crucified their messiah, however the Catholics never wanted just anybody reading those books. They wanted those books only read by Catholic experts, so perhaps it was never intended to be interpreted as it is. Perhaps it was never intended to blame Jews or accuse them of being murderers. I say 'Perhaps' because its fine with me if there are different opinions about it. Far better that future generations are enabled to decide for themselves what actually has taken place.

    Now we have a situation. The year is 2021. All information is being converted to a digital form, and our assumptions are being digitized. Some of those assumptions are medieval, bloody, less than informed, too. There's danger those assumptions may become the assumptions of Christians for the next 20,000 years! I can't imagine anything worse for Christians. That's a lot of trouble not just for Jews but for us. We need to think this through and make sure to state ALL of the theories and not make assumptions like the Reformation scholars want us to make or that anybody really wants for us to make. We don't want the next 20,000 years to be a huge stupid religious irreligious confrontation. We need to get things to a point where people can choose for themselves what happened and accept alternatives while embracing what's important: principles.
     
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  3. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    It is interesting to underline that in the Nicene Creed we mention Pontius Pilate (so the Romans) as the authority who had Jesus crucified.
    So Early Christianity has never blamed the Jews...since the IV century they have acknowledged crucifixion was a Roman execution.
    I think anti-Jewish sentiment arrived much later, unfortunately. In the Medieval period.
     
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  4. Stevicus

    Stevicus Veteran Member
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    I never thought any of it made any sense, although it seems that the Crucifixion was part of the divine plan anyway. Why should anyone be blamed? And since Jesus was resurrected, can it be said to be an actual murder? In any case, Jesus asked God to forgive them for crucifying him, so that would seem to resolve the matter as far charging anyone with a crime over it. If they have a pardon from God, I think that would cover it.
     
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  5. sun rise

    sun rise "This is the Hour of God"
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    And yet, sadly, even today, the antisemitic lies are still repeated after all we've been through.
     
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  6. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Well at best they could be upset with the Jews who charged Jesus, who are long dead, but they cannot blame anybody currently living for Jesus death. AND God planned Jesus death to be that way. So blame God.
     
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  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Every story has to have its bad guys. It seems to be the nature of stories.
     
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  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I just HAFta ask: what is "liber-scripta grim Christian" supposed to mean? (Is it 'freedom-writing' something?) It really caught my eye, for some reason!
     
  9. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    Most scholars of antiquity will agree that Jesus was an itinerant Jewish preacher, was baptized and died through crucifixion. There's a question mark as to the historicity in regards the involvement of Caiaphas, the Jewish high priest, charging Jesus with blasphemy after He claimed to be the Son of God. This story is based on the Gospel accounts and Caiaphas was indeed an historical figure whose existence is most reliably documented by Josephus.

    Regardless of the details it all happened nearly two thousand years ago and is water under the bridge as far as the Baha'is are concerned.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    So long as Baha'is aren't judging Jews as insincere on the basis of the death of Jesus.
     
  11. adrian009

    adrian009 Veteran Member
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    I think it is a Jewish/Christian matter where centuries of Christian antisemitism culminated in the Jewish holocaust. Muslims don't even believe Jesus was crucified so are hardly likely to point the finger at the Jews in regards their role. Baha'is shouldn't even be teaching Jews in Israel about the Baha'i Faith let alone rehashing an argument that doesn't concern them.
     
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  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    The new Testament is all true. It's not just religiously motivated polemic. But even the old Testament predicts in various places that they would betray him and kill him.
     
  13. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    It was the will of God that Israel would reject their Messiah and have him killed. The reason was so he could be the sacrifice and savior of the whole world. That's why it was the high priest who was behind the whole thing. The high priests offer the sacrifices and according to John 11:48-51 the high priest "prophesied" that it was expedient one man should die to save the whole nation. So he didn't really understand what he was doing; but he was prophesying by the anointing of the high priesthood. So Jesus' death was according to the will of God. As Isaiah 53:10 predicts it pleased the Lord to bruise him ... So yes the Jews were tricked by satan into killing Jesus but it's because God's plan to save the world.

    God did not intend it as an excuse for antisemitism. But of course bad people use it as an excuse. But the Nazis for example didn't only use "the Jews killed Jesus" as an excuse. They also used evolution as an excuse. Claiming that Jews were mostly "ape" and needed to be cleansed.

    So the Bible certainly cannot be blamed for antisemitism.
     
  14. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I see all we need to do is learn from the past. Not to repeat the past mistakes and lay blame.

    A key here is that we must first admit to the mistakes, before the healing process can commence.

    Regards Tony
     
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  15. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    I think God doesn't need anyone, that canon is man-chosen. God gives wisdom to anyone that wants it, but we are full of self deceit. We search in the dark instead of in the light, because we are creatures that prefer ignorance while telling ourselves we prefer knowledge. Things could not be more tragic.
     
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  16. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Even if the polemic is true it does not mean that any Jews these days should be accused of anything. That would be like the Jews accusing all the Germans of the holocaust or all Christians of the pogroms.
     
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  17. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    They say "look at how god punished the Jews in the OT for their disobedience." We see all this disobedience from the Jews and god punished them." And, most harrowing, "Well, just look at what god did to them in the OT, so the Holocaust was probably god punishing them for disobedience."
     
  18. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    God knew it was going to happen and sent Jesus to die of our sins but the Jews of the day who were involved, were guilty, assuming the gospel story is correct.
     
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  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    And it's painfully ironic. It was their gods will and design, it had to happen to fulfill prophecy, it doesn't happen they all roast in hell (as some believe), and yet they are angry it happened and blamed people for it.:confused:
     
  20. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    It is a tricky one to explain. God predicted that such a thing would happen and it was part of his plan, so it had to come to pass. But also those who participated are also guilty. I think it comes down to intent. God planned Jesus to die, and Jesus agreed to go along with it, and God had Jesus killed knowing that it wasn't the end of his life and its purpose was to save mankind. The Jews who were involved in getting Jesus killed were doing so out of malicious intent, hatred, and they wanted Jesus to be eliminated permanently. They were not doing so for the greater go0od which is why they are guilty.
     
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