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Featured Christianity is not the only way to God

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Meandflower, Apr 12, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The question was, what do they mean?
     
  2. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    I don't think any sane person should literally take it to mean literally move a mountain . Thats an easy one .
     
  3. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    A literal place is prepared .
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You first have to define what it means to be saved. Saved from what? If there was no original sin committed by Adam and Eve then we did not need a Savior to wipe away that sin; but that does not mean we did not need Jesus for something else. We all have a sinful nature as well as a spiritual nature, so we needed the teachings of Jesus and His cross sacrifice to save us from our sinful nature.

    The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

    “…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The interpretation that matters *to you* is your own, but what if your interpretation is incorrect? Wouldn't you want to know the correct interpretation?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It is true that all the older religions have some things incorrect because we do not even have any original scriptures written in the pen of the Prophets and Messengers of God and what we do have has been altered by man.

    You understand that there is only one God intuitively because that is what you learned from the Bible. Hindus read other scriptures so they came to different understandings and believed in many gods and that makes sense to them. Many gods makes no sense to me because I believe in the God of Abraham.

    God did not allow for different paths to God during the Dispensation of Jesus because God wanted everyone to follow Jesus during that dispensation, because Jesus was the Manifestation of God that God sent for that dispensation (age, time period).

    Dispensation
    1. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
    2. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
    3. a divinely appointed order or age:
    e.g. the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation; the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.

    Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com

    Jesus was the one mediator between God and men during His dispensation. That is why we have verses like the following:

    1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    But that does not mean that Jesus was the one and only mediator until the end of time. Christians just assumed that was the case, but the Bible does not say that. The Bible was written to apply to the Jewish and Christian dispensations; it was not written to apply to the dispensations that followed. The Qur'an was written and it applied to the dispensation of Muhammad, and then later the Writings of Baha'u'llah apply to the Dispensation of Baha'u'llah, which is the dispensation we are now living in, the present age.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    So Jesus went to heaven and prepared a place in heaven for the disciples, that is what I believe, but what does the following verse mean to you?

    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
     
  8. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA ज्ञानं सदाशिवात्‌ मोक्षं जनार्दनात्‌
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    ज्ञानं इच्‍छेत्‌ सदाशिवात्‌ मोक्षं इच्‍छेत्‌ जनार्दनात्‌
    Hello

    Hinduism, a.k.a. sanAtan dharma (eternal dharma) says there is One Absolute Truth - we call that Brahman', and this Absolute Truth manifests in a hierarchy and in various forms.
    Deep inside you also , lies Brahman. The kingdom of God is within you.

    In Brahman' are principles (tattva) - and for creation, maintenance, dissolution, the Absolute, which is a perfect blend of Being-ness-Consciousness and Spiritual-Energy, takes on the roles of BrahmA - to create, VishNu - to maintain and nurture, Rudra - to destruct that which is constructed. Goddess is the Adi-Shakti - the spiritual energy
    It is at multitudes of nested levels that creation, nurture and dissolution are happening, but spirituality is not all about creation which is merely a part of the Divine. We have to go beyond the created.

    So,
    Brahman' is VishNu by definition - the all-pervading omnipresent omniscient one who gives salvation into Himself (He is very gentle, gracious, generous and Dear)
    Brahman is Shiva by definition - the all-auspicious pure One
    Brahman is Aditi the infinite boundless One, She is pure and no flaws restrict Her
    Brahman is DurgA - the composite energy center - full Omnipotence - She is the composite energy of all devas and removes negative elements, demons etc.
    Brahman manifests as BrahmA to create the material universe and preserve the Vaidic knowledge (hence Saraswati)
    Brahman is Krishna - the highest all-attractive spiritual principle of Divine Love
    Brahman' is Dattatreya - the three roles of BrahmA VishNu Rudra combined that generously donated Himself away (datta) to Rshi Atri as his son, for our well-being
    Brahman as the Lord of the cosmic-moral-order (Ruta in Sanskrit) is VaruN.
    Brahman is Rudra Who cried for the sorrow and suffering of the mortals, Who howls like the tornado when it is time to de-construct some things
    Brahman is Agni - the Fire principle
    Brahman is MahaLakshmi -- the primordial Goddess of all-auspicious qualities and Goodness, prosperity that is the result of it, who stays hidden, secret, but takes myriads of Goddess forms to facilitate all functions at various levels, holding all principles of virtue and divinity
    Brahman is Om (Omkaar) the primordial Sound
    ....

    There is no limit to Brahman'


    The Gods and Goddesses manifest as more gods and goddesses. We do not worship them separately. Each universe, galaxy, solar system down to each quark have divine principles pervading them - and the set of gods-goddesses are found in each universe, galaxy, and individual.

    [ Proton = BrahmA , Neutron = VishNu , Electron = Rudra ]

    There are those that preside over the 5 elements of nature --- Space/ether, earth/solid , liquid, air/gaseous principle, Fire (heat-light). T
    The Aspect of Brahman / God that governs the Fire element is Agni , over air-principle is Vayu etc.


    Basically the 33 koTi gods can be looked at in 2 ways
    (i) 33 koTi = 33 of the high cadre / class = 12 aditya (include Sun or Solar deities) + 11 rudra + 8 vasu + 2 ashwini-kumar

    (ii) 33 koTi = 33 crore = 330 million
    Every aspect of existence is pervaded by the Divine God (omniscience), sparks of which can be seen in the many major divine principles. If there is anything less than goodness, that is because of the covering of ignorance and mAyA. The divine pervades all but is covered.


    Hindus do not worship 330 million, and not even 33.

    Usually you have one form of the Highest Brahman that is the dear-most, and focus is on that one -- most likely ones are VishNu and His avatars , Krishna, the Goddess , and Shiva - where Shiva is taken more to be the un-manifest formless principle but manifested or seen as Shankar a.k.a. Rudra.

    VishNu is also the same formless Brahman but His forms are most dear to devotees so He relents.

    Krishna, Who is Brahman' and the 'Complete VishNu' gives options (in the Bhagavad Geeta) for those who prefer His formless aspect, and those who are attached to His form.
    He says - As beings worship Me, I reciprocate accordingly. He is like the perfect parent who gently observes and knows what works best for each person.
     
    #148 ameyAtmA, Apr 17, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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  9. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    “I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (vs. 3). The promise will not be fulfilled, literally, until the Second Advent.
     
  10. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Yes but according to the bible this is false. That may sound dismissive ,but its better to be direct on these serious matters. I used to believe similar things to this before, and its not true . At all.
     
  11. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    This “coming again” (John 14:3) is a coming in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess. 4:13–17);“so shall we EVER be with the Lord”).
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That's right, but the Second Advent (return of Christ) was never slated to be the same man Jesus.
    You cannot make that work unless you disregard the plain meaning is what Jesus said.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


    Not only THAT, but Jesus never said He was going to return to earth, not once in the New Testament, so obviously that means that the Second Coming was going to be the coming of another man with another name.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Sorry to say, but those are not the words of Jesus promising to return, they are the words of Paul, but let's look at them anyway.

    For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout does not refer to Jesus and it is not intended to be interpreted literally because no man ever literally descended from Heaven.

    God will bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus refers to those who have forgotten Jesus, those we were spiritually asleep.

    The dead in Christ shall rise first means those who are spiritually dead in Jesus will be the first to recognize the Lord when He comes.

    Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air does not refer to literal clouds or literal air; it is symbolic for something.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    21st Century King James Version


    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others who have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so will God bring with Him those also who sleep in Jesus.

    15 For this we say unto you by the Word of the Lord: that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who are asleep.

    16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first;

    17 then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.


    Read full chapter
     
  14. ameyAtmA

    ameyAtmA ज्ञानं सदाशिवात्‌ मोक्षं जनार्दनात्‌
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    I was only answering your question :

    Barry Johnson said:
    I am not here to discuss whether God is Brahman / whether sanAtan dharma is right or wrong.

    For me it is not one or the other. Complimentary. Supplementary.

    Yes, God is One. The dharma says there is only God. Anything else is an appearance within God. The multiple gods are multiple angels. Just as you have archangels and angels.


    ------------------
    However, I am just curious. Christians keep saying "this is false" or the "gods are false"
    What exactly does false mean? That they are just not there? That Brahman' does not exist? Then who is posting here? Not a blade of grass can move without His Will.
    What if I tell you I have seen / met forms of Brahman' in a dimension over years?
     
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  15. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    Did you miss the examples I gave of both what it says in Romans 2 how that you have gentiles with the word written upon their hearts, as well as what Jesus said?

    "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness"
    What I said, is scriptural. Why are you saying the above is a "wild truth claim" I made? Don't forget too, Jesus called the pagan Roman Centurion, the greatest faith he'd seen in all of Israel. It appears to me, from scripture itself, that God has children in other cultures who hear his voice. I think you don't understand something important from the teachings of Jesus and the early church.

    You used to believe that people could find God in any culture, religion, or time in history, but then you threw all that out in favor of everyone in the world is blind and lost, unless they understand God and worship in the way you do?

    You claim I have wishful thinking. I think it's better to call it "hopeful thinking", meaning it offers the world hope. In the case of your thinking now, for whatever reason brought you to this dark view of humanity and God, I would maybe call that unloving thinking, but probably just dark thinking is more what it is. How does it make you feel, may I ask, to see God in that way, not speaking to anyone unless they get saved first in a Christian church?

    I just cannot swallow that awful horsepill. It's got to cause some disturbance somewhere trying to choke that down. It did for me, when I used to think that way because of what others taught me in my early years.
     
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  16. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    Acts 1.1111Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this SAME Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
     
  17. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    This is a new one lol . This is literally indefensible.
     
  18. Barry Johnson

    Barry Johnson Well-Known Member

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    They would be demonic . I could tell you of real experiences prior to being a Christian that i now realise were bad spirits. They can come as ' angels of light ' the bible warns .
     
  19. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Acts 1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    As I said before, Bible verses can have more than one interpretation. I am well aware of these verses and I have discussed them at length with Christians for many years. As such, I already have an interpretation.

    I believe that the disciples were staring up into the sky as the spirit of Jesus was taken up to heaven out of their sight. The two men dressed in white (angels) came along and asked why they were staring up into the sky because they wondered why the disciples were staring up into the sky. Then the angels told the disciples that the same spirit of Jesus that was taken up to heaven will return just as it went to heaven, in like manner.

    The verse does not say that the disciples saw a body go up. It was the Christ Spirit that ascended, not a body, which is why the angels wondered why the disciples were staring into the sky, since there was nothing to look at. That makes perfect sense since angels can see spirits.

    Descending from heaven upon the clouds means that the spirit of Jesus, the Christ Spirit, will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God and will appear in the form of the human temple. Though delivered from the womb of Mary, Jesus in reality descended from the heaven of the will of God. Baha’u’llah descended in like manner, from the heaven of the will of God.

    “But as the clergy have neither understood the meaning of the Gospels nor comprehended the symbols, therefore, it has been said that religion is in contradiction to science, and science in opposition to religion, as, for example, this subject of the ascension of Christ with an elemental body to the visible heaven is contrary to the science of mathematics. But when the truth of this subject becomes clear, and the symbol is explained, science in no way contradicts it; but, on the contrary, science and the intelligence affirm it.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 104-105
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am glad you realize that. :)
     
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