Christianity is not the only way to God

[YoursTrue]

The Tanakh and NT provide very different portraits of the God of Abraham, yet He is the same God. The Quran’s portrait is closer to the Tanakh than NT. I believe there is only One God.

The definition of the word god can be explained in the Bible very well, and with consideration, most people understand that. For instance, when the Israelites were waiting for Moses to come down from the mountain, they made a golden calf and worshipped it. Also, we know for sure the nations outside that of Israel worshipped gods the Israelites did not. Jesus said in prayer to his father in heaven that he, his father in heaven, was the only "true" God. Since Jesus is also said to be a god in his glorified state before and after being human, does that mean Jesus is a false God? No. Jesus was given great power. And in order to please the Father, one must accept Jesus as God's son, and a god in his own right now, having been given great power from his Father.

 

[YoursTrue]

I would agree that it is by one's one conscience we stand or fall. That is true if you follow a religion, or if you don't. So do you agree that someone would not need to convert to Christianity, in order for them to be doing the will of God, and following their conscience? Can you see a Buddhist fulfilling God's will, even while remaining a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or etc, and never converting to the Christian religion?

The Bible says that every man, simply by virtue of being human, has a conscience telling him for instance that murder and stealing, etc. is -- wrong. It's just like humans have hearts and heads, etc. But it does not mean that everyone is worshipping God, the true one.

 

[YoursTrue]

If you choose to believe in one God. And that you are kind and loving to other humans and animals then that is God of Abraham.

If you choose to believe in many gods, then no. You are not worshipping God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham has certain restrictions that He invokes for those acceptable to Him. At the beginning, however, Adam and Eve had one distinct restriction placed upon them in order for them to be acceptable to Him. He sets the commandments.

 

[YoursTrue]

Every single one of "His" adherents has a separate copy of "Him" in their heads - with whatever attributes and opinions they are wont to give "Him". That's precisely how I truly believe this to work.

HE spoke to the nation of Israel. He set out His commandments for them. These people were distinct, different, let's say as an example, from those the Israelites escaped from.

 

[Brian2]

If Jesus took on the sins of the whole world, then that includes everyone regardless of their culture, history, or religion. So then, even if one remains a Buddhist their whole lives, if they live the law of love, which Jesus taught, then Jesus opening the doors to heaven, would pertain to them, and everyone else in the world regardless of actual religious affiliations. The Door, is Christ, not church affiliation, right?

The door is Christ and not church affiliation, correct.

Do you have scripture to support this statement that we are to get closer in "belief and practice"? My interpretation of scripture is that we are to draw closer to God with our hearts, not with our religious beliefs and practices. We may choose to do that as a means to that end, if that is what we need for who we are and where we are at on our paths, but the injunction from Jesus is not to become more religious. Rather it's to become more loving, from what I read.

To become more loving is what I meant by getting closer in belief and practice.
2 Cor 3:17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Gal 5:5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. All that matters is faith, expressed through love.
James 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

I hope those scriptures suite what you are saying. We as Christians are changed into more loving people. A true faith expresses itself through love and true religion acceptable to God is acts of love. That said, we are encouraged in scripture to have fellowship with other Christians, this certainly can be upbuilding and is part of what God uses to build us up in our faith.

Are you saying that in order for Christ's sacrifice to be imparted to the whole world, somehow people must mentally acknowledge the doctrines of the Christian church and believe in them and follow them, i.e., convert to that religion? Are the keys to the kingdom, found in correct beliefs? Do we have to answer the questions on the test correctly first, demonstrating we have a correct mental comprehension of the Divine, in order to receive God's Grace?

Being a Christian does involve believing in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God and accepting Him and recognising Him as your Lord. How do you become a Christian without hearing and believing in Jesus. You certainly do not have to know much doctrine but it can help with your faith.
I grew up as a Catholic but left it and stayed a Christian I thought but I remember chanting Hare Krishna and still thinking myself a Christians. God draws us closer to Himself if we are willing to listen and follow and we end up more in line with how God wants us to live both in love and trusting in Him and not our own efforts and works.
The Father draws us to His Son and it can be hard when we look back to know just when we became a Christian but it does involve belief.............in the words of a well known verse.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Windwalker]

Jesus said he is the way. In order to understand this better, one must first realize that not all those claiming to be Christians are acceptable to God. I know this may be hard for some to realize or accept.

Yes, only those who do the will of the Father are children of God. So it has nothing to do with claims of being a follower of Jesus, or being in the right religion. Correct?

The Bible says that every man, simply by virtue of being human, has a conscience telling him for instance that murder and stealing, etc. is -- wrong. It's just like humans have hearts and heads, etc. But it does not mean that everyone is worshipping God, the true one.

But if they are loving others, being loving people who do no harm to others, and thus according to scripture are doing "the will of the Father", doesn't this mean they are worshipping God with their lives? Or does worshipping God entail other things, like church attendance, animal sacrifices, and other religious observations?

Also, why did Jesus say of the Roman Centurion, a pagan, that he'd never seen a greater faith in God than his in all of Israel, surpassing all the most religiously observant he'd ever met? It doesn't sound to me like he saw religious observances, which some equate with "worship", as the criteria of acceptability to God. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Muffled]

Christianity is not the only way to God

I have evidence from the Bible itself:

God is love, whoever abides in love abides in God, and God in him, 1 John 4:16

What do you think about that?

I would agree but even the devil has access to God. Christianity is about the Gospel.

 

[Muffled]

Emmanuel Swedenborg was right about God and religion.

He believed this:

The path to salvation is simple: live well, believe rightly, and you will be saved. We believe that all people who live good lives, no matter what their religion, have a place in heaven

Salvation is not dependent on the doctrinal specifics of the religion you have followed on earth. As long as you have lived a life acknowledging God and refraining from evil because it is against Him, you will be saved.

(Source: Salvation – the New Church perspective | New Church)

I believe that would work if it were possible but it isn't possible without Jesus.

 

[Muffled]

My common sense leads me to the conclusion that the Bible is often contradictory and generally unreliable:

An interactive resource to explore Bible contradictions, cruelty and other detrimental aspects of the Bible.

I believe that qualifies as common nonsense.

 

[Brian2]

Also, why did Jesus say of the Roman Centurion, a pagan, that he'd never seen a greater faith in God than his in all of Israel, surpassing all the most religiously observant he'd ever met? It doesn't sound to me like he saw religious observances, which some equate with "worship", as the criteria of acceptability to God. Wouldn't you agree?

It does matter whom you are putting your faith in however. Would you agree?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe that qualifies as common nonsense.

Did you look at the interactive tool in the link?

 

[Windwalker]

It does matter whom you are putting your faith in however. Would you agree?

I would say all 'faith' is directed towards the Absolute or "God" in all religions. Faith is an intention towards, and hope in the Divine Reality, or God, as well as being a mindset and way of life.

But if you mean faith in a human teacher, in the sense of 'whom do you trust', then the rule of thumb that Jesus gave to discern truth from error was simple. "By their fruits you shall know them." If they produce good spiritual fruit, and thus fulfill the will of God, then that is the proof of its validity.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, only those who do the will of the Father are children of God. So it has nothing to do with claims of being a follower of Jesus, or being in the right religion. Correct?


But if they are loving others, being loving people who do no harm to others, and thus according to scripture are doing "the will of the Father", doesn't this mean they are worshipping God with their lives? Or does worshipping God entail other things, like church attendance, animal sacrifices, and other religious observations?

Also, why did Jesus say of the Roman Centurion, a pagan, that he'd never seen a greater faith in God than his in all of Israel, surpassing all the most religiously observant he'd ever met? It doesn't sound to me like he saw religious observances, which some equate with "worship", as the criteria of acceptability to God. Wouldn't you agree?

It's an interesting question, because much of it relates to the relationship that God had with Abraham, also Abraham's circumstances. Abraham was not born into the Jewish nation, but was considered a forefather of it. Were there those outside the Jewish nation that lived by decent moral principles? Because the Bible writer Paul speaks of conscience of mankind. Notice Romans 2:
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them…"
So there is what is called decent human behavior that God implanted in the hearts of mankind. However, the law for Israel is different, it is singular for that nation. And there is a reason. It's a very important reason, thanks for bringing it up.

 

[Windwalker]

It's an interesting question, because much of it relates to the relationship that God had with Abraham, also Abraham's circumstances. Abraham was not born into the Jewish nation, but was considered a forefather of it. Were there those outside the Jewish nation that lived by decent moral principles?

There is that as well. Thanks for bringing that up. Clearly, God is looking at the interior condition of one's heart, and not whether or not they were following a religion, or following some other religion. I think it's safe to say that's the same today as well. Doing God's will, is something more fundamental than following or 'obeying' the rules of a religion.

Because the Bible writer Paul speaks of conscience of mankind. Notice Romans 2:
"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous. 14Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15So they show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them…"

That's a wonderful passage. And when you tie that in with Romans 14, you can explicitly see that applied to Christians in general, and why the emphasis was to not judge those who think observances of practices must be followed in order to be seen as "obeying" God.

And likewise, why it says to those older believers who know God judges by the heart and live by a guided conscious where the law is written on the tablets of the heart, to not create a stumbling block to those Christians by insisting they shouldn't follow them. Basically, telling them they're wrong for doing it, and insisting your way is the right way instead. If that's what they need, then that's important to them, even though you know for yourself between you and God, that it is not.

So there is what is called decent human behavior that God implanted in the hearts of mankind. However, the law for Israel is different, it is singular for that nation. And there is a reason. It's a very important reason, thanks for bringing it up.

I believe that there is an innate goodness in human beings, as well as a propensity to destruction. That innate goodness, is what Spirit speaks to, and calls us. That is something innate in every human being, and either buried deep or more exposed.

So that's where decent human behavior comes from, as that is what it truly means to be 'obeying God', or better stated, doing God's will as a way of being. So yes, God would look at that, not which religion you are part of, or the ways in which you imagine the Divine.

 

[YoursTrue]

There is that as well. Thanks for bringing that up. Clearly, God is looking at the interior condition of one's heart, and not whether or not they were following a religion, or following some other religion. I think it's safe to say that's the same today as well. Doing God's will, is something more fundamental than following or 'obeying' the rules of a religion.


That's a wonderful passage. And when you tie that in with Romans 14, you can explicitly see that applied to Christians in general, and why the emphasis was to not judge those who think observances of practices must be followed in order to be seen as "obeying" God.

And likewise, why it says to those older believers who know God judges by the heart and live by a guided conscious where the law is written on the tablets of the heart, to not create a stumbling block to those Christians by insisting they shouldn't follow them. Basically, telling them they're wrong for doing it, and insisting your way is the right way instead. If that's what they need, then that's important to them, even though you know for yourself between you and God, that it is not.


I believe that there is an innate goodness in human beings, as well as a propensity to destruction. That innate goodness, is what Spirit speaks to, and calls us. That is something innate in every human being, and either buried deep or more exposed.

So that's where decent human behavior comes from, as that is what it truly means to be 'obeying God', or better stated, doing God's will as a way of being. So yes, God would look at that, not which religion you are part of, or the ways in which you imagine the Divine.

I''ll say one more thing. (Guess I can't help it.) The early disciples preached about -- Jesus.

 

[Brian2]

I would say all 'faith' is directed towards the Absolute or "God" in all religions. Faith is an intention towards, and hope in the Divine Reality, or God, as well as being a mindset and way of life.

In a sense and in the mind of the devotee yes but I guess in practice that might not be the case.

But if you mean faith in a human teacher, in the sense of 'whom do you trust', then the rule of thumb that Jesus gave to discern truth from error was simple. "By their fruits you shall know them." If they produce good spiritual fruit, and thus fulfill the will of God, then that is the proof of its validity.

That know them by their fruits quote was about knowing true and false prophets.
When it comes to other things such as how morally good do you think one group is over another, that is harder to say. The real group might be the one that looks pretty ordinary because it is full of ordinary people.

 

[Windwalker]

In a sense and in the mind of the devotee yes but I guess in practice that might not be the case.

I'm referring to genuine faith as something that arises from within someone in their reaching to the Divine. Anyone, anywhere, in any religion can have that.

I'm not speaking about professions of faith with the mouth, for instance those who label themselves Christians, yet hate others and declare a war upon their culture and actively engage in fighting against them and their beliefs and values system. That's not Christian love, that's Christian identity and aggression.

Same thing is true with anyone part of any religion. It's about the individual and what is in their heart, not what their group affiliation happens to be, be that Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. God doesn't look at the group, he looks at the heart of the person believing.

That know them by their fruits quote was about knowing true and false prophets.

That particular passage is teaching that in the context of recognizing false prophets, but that is not the limitation of its application, of course. You find the same teaching, looking at someone's fruit as the true test, not in a context of false prophets and teachers, but in the context of disciples not judging other followers of God, criticizing the speck in their eye, while ignoring the beam in their own for doing that very act of judging. He then says following that in Luke 6:43-45

No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.​

Here clearly, this applies to everyone, not just prophets. And that also makes perfectly logical sense. You can fake beliefs, but you cannot fake genuine fruits. Even though it may take some time after one eats those, to become ill and to wither.

This fits nicely in with Paul's teachings from Romans 14 as well. 'To their own master they stand or fall'. In other words, it's not by appearances to the eyes, 'he's not following the Torah!', but rather the fruits of love that a true heart of faith bears that speaks the validity of that person's faith. You can keep every law in the book, but if your heart still is full of envy, pride, and condemnation of others, none of that matters, as keeping rules is not the Source of spiritual fruit. Love is.

When it comes to other things such as how morally good do you think one group is over another, that is harder to say. The real group might be the one that looks pretty ordinary because it is full of ordinary people.

This is interesting how you see things in terms of one group over another. I think that group division should be between those who do the will of God, to love and do no harm (Romans 13:10), and those who don't. And that is based upon the individual, regardless of group affiliation.

If it were based upon group affiliation, then those who are true in their hearts before God as understood by them through their culture, time, and language, are unacceptable to God unless they were also in the right group. That I just cannot accept as how Love works.

Jesus accepted the pagan Roman Centurion's faith, over that of every Jew in all of Israel at that time. He didn't seem to be looking at which religion he was in, other than to point out to the religious how wrong they are about judging by religious appearances instead. Reaching out in faith, is reaching out in faith, regardless of where that person is at in their lives, or beliefs, or religion.

 

[Brian2]

I'm referring to genuine faith as something that arises from within someone in their reaching to the Divine. Anyone, anywhere, in any religion can have that.

I'm not speaking about professions of faith with the mouth, for instance those who label themselves Christians, yet hate others and declare a war upon their culture and actively engage in fighting against them and their beliefs and values system. That's not Christian love, that's Christian identity and aggression.

Same thing is true with anyone part of any religion. It's about the individual and what is in their heart, not what their group affiliation happens to be, be that Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. God doesn't look at the group, he looks at the heart of the person believing.

Yes it is what is in our hearts that is important.
I'm not sure what you mean by those who label themselves Christians yet hate others and declare a war upon their culture and actively engage in fighting against them and their beliefs and value system. Have you any examples? I know that many people do what we might consider to be wrong things but their heart may be doing them for the right reasons.

That particular passage is teaching that in the context of recognizing false prophets, but that is not the limitation of its application, of course. You find the same teaching, looking at someone's fruit as the true test, not in a context of false prophets and teachers, but in the context of disciples not judging other followers of God, criticizing the speck in their eye, while ignoring the beam in their own for doing that very act of judging. He then says following that in Luke 6:43-45

No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.​

Here clearly, this applies to everyone, not just prophets. And that also makes perfectly logical sense. You can fake beliefs, but you cannot fake genuine fruits. Even though it may take some time after one eats those, to become ill and to wither.

This fits nicely in with Paul's teachings from Romans 14 as well. 'To their own master they stand or fall'. In other words, it's not by appearances to the eyes, 'he's not following the Torah!', but rather the fruits of love that a true heart of faith bears that speaks the validity of that person's faith. You can keep every law in the book, but if your heart still is full of envy, pride, and condemnation of others, none of that matters, as keeping rules is not the Source of spiritual fruit. Love is.

True.
It can be easy to be a hypocrite and hopefully God will point that out to a true disciple of Jesus and the person will hear and change.

This is interesting how you see things in terms of one group over another. I think that group division should be between those who do the will of God, to love and do no harm (Romans 13:10), and those who don't. And that is based upon the individual, regardless of group affiliation.

If it were based upon group affiliation, then those who are true in their hearts before God as understood by them through their culture, time, and language, are unacceptable to God unless they were also in the right group. That I just cannot accept as how Love works.

Jesus accepted the pagan Roman Centurion's faith, over that of every Jew in all of Israel at that time. He didn't seem to be looking at which religion he was in, other than to point out to the religious how wrong they are about judging by religious appearances instead. Reaching out in faith, is reaching out in faith, regardless of where that person is at in their lives, or beliefs, or religion.

Sounds right but the Roman Centurion was seeing Jesus and believing in His authority.
Nevertheless Christians are united in a group set apart by God according to scripture and have a special responsibility to them as brothers and sisters in Christ. We can see the righteousness or not of those who are no Christians at times and cannot really judge them, that is God's job but in the Church we should be encouraging people to walk in the path they should be walking in as Christians. This does not mean we are judging the person, but judging what they do and encouraging them to change if necessary. And of course we should be judging ourselves as well so that we are are not doing the same things.

 

[Yoshua]

I would say all 'faith' is directed towards the Absolute or "God" in all religions. Faith is an intention towards, and hope in the Divine Reality, or God, as well as being a mindset and way of life.

But if you mean faith in a human teacher, in the sense of 'whom do you trust', then the rule of thumb that Jesus gave to discern truth from error was simple. "By their fruits you shall know them." If they produce good spiritual fruit, and thus fulfill the will of God, then that is the proof of its validity.

Hi Windtalker,

What do you mean by "all faith"? Does it include Muslims and HIndus?

 

[Yoshua]

I'm referring to genuine faith as something that arises from within someone in their reaching to the Divine. Anyone, anywhere, in any religion can have that.

I'm not speaking about professions of faith with the mouth, for instance those who label themselves Christians, yet hate others and declare a war upon their culture and actively engage in fighting against them and their beliefs and values system. That's not Christian love, that's Christian identity and aggression.

Same thing is true with anyone part of any religion. It's about the individual and what is in their heart, not what their group affiliation happens to be, be that Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, etc. God doesn't look at the group, he looks at the heart of the person believing.

Hi Windtalker,

How God will look at the heart of a Buddhist if the Buddhist don't know God and Jesus Christ?