• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christianity is monotheism

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.
 
Last edited:

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
The Trinity is still talked about as three distinct entities.

If I am feeling the Spirit of the Holy ghost. How would I know this, if the experience is actually of 1 God?

 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.
If it's three, then it's definitly polytheism gussied up in a monotheism dress.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
...But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.

Many Christians believe so, but, how can they then believe Jesus sits on God's right side as the Bible says? I think it would be best to remain in what Bible tells about Jesus and God.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.
I believe God is the highest being in existence :) the trinity in my understanding is the connection between God Humans and our spiritual Being (wisdom)
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.
True, but there is difficulty in understanding this as 'Person' is a poor representation of the original understanding. I remember that Pearl explained once about this word. Anyways its not the meaning of 'Person' that we are used to using day to day. When you say "In three persons" it makes no sense in English.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.
Frankly, your description of Trinitarianism sounds more like Modalism (which is not Trinitarianism, and is considered a heresy by Trinitarian Christians).
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Many people do not understand the trinity. The trinity is not three gods. That is a christian heresy called tritheism. Tritheism is the belief that the three persons is three different beings, three different gods that work and live in unity

The trinity doctrine is three persons who share one Being. That God is only one divine Being. And with one divine will and action. It is because of this Christianity is classified as monotheism.

Jews and muslims believe God is only one Being and one person. But christians believe God is only one Being and three persons.

john 3:12


These (Naasseni), then, according to the system advanced by them, magnify, (as the originating cause) of all things else, a man and a son of man. And this man is a hermaphrodite, and is denominated among them Adam; and hymns many and various are made to him. The hymns10 however-to be brief-are couched among them in some such form as this: "From thee (comes) father, and through thee (comes) mother, two names immortal, progenitors of Aeons, O denizen of heaven, thou illustrious man." But they divide him as Geryon11 into three parts. For, say they, of this man one part is rational, another psychical, another earthly. And they suppose that the knowledge of him is the originating principle of the capacity for a knowledge of God, expressing themselves thus: "The originating principle of perfection is the knowledge12 of man, while the knowledge of God is absolute perfection." All these qualities, however-rational, and psychical, and earthly-have, (the Naassene) says, retired and descended into one man simultaneously-Jesus,13 who was born of Mary. And these three men (the Naassene) says, are in the habit of speaking (through Jesus) at the same time together, each from their own proper substances to those peculiarly their own. For, according to these, there are three kinds of all existent things-angelic, psychical, earthly; and there are three churches-angelic, psychical, earthly; and the names of these are elect, called, captive.
 

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
Frankly, your description of Trinitarianism sounds more like Modalism (which is not Trinitarianism, and is considered a heresy by Trinitarian Christians).
You are wrong. What i described is trinitarianism.

In the trinity doctrine God is eternally three different persons who share one Being. And have one divine will and action. The three persons in God can communicate with each other and is loving each other but at the same time they share the same Being.

Modalism is that the members of the Trinity are not three distinct persons but rather three modes or forms of activity under which God manifests himself. In modalism the different modes is not eternal. In modalism God is just one person and one being who temporally manifest himself in three different modes, manifestations or forms of activity (The Father, Son, Holy spirit).
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Again, the Trinitarian concept is not in any way polytheistic but follows through on the concept of "essence" designed by Aristotle and Plato and used in the early Church to try and show the relationship between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

IOW, it's basically that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God.

es·sence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN

  1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character:
    • philosophy
      a property or group of properties of something without which it would not exist or be what it is.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Nevertheless you would not say more than one person. That, no doubt would be worse for you to say than "one person".

In my opinion, just as non-trinitarians can quite easily be forgiven for misunderstanding the concept of the trinity, so too, understanding the Jewish concept of monotheism is extremely difficult for the non-Jew.

And again in my opinion, Jewish monotheism is correct. It understands something as difficult to mentally metabolize as is the trinity concept: that God, though He is the signified of all signifiers, cannot be signified by any signifier since technically there's nothing there to signify since He transcends signification completely making any signifier that purposes to signify God nothing more than an idol.

Although that might sound like someone is trying to use their tongue pertier than a two dollar whore on a Saturday night, nevetheless, parsed out carefully, it leads to a conceptualilsm that's able to bring Jewish monotheism into unity with Christian trinitarianism.



John
 
Last edited:

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
. . . Especially since he has many names, יהוה, אלהים, etc.. In fact, one of the names is plural אלה–ים.



John
Here is a list from The Torah where Elohim is determined to be plural. Note they all connote negative / prohibited activities.

Gen 3:5 - The serpent is tempting Eve:
כִּי יֹדֵעַ אֱלֹהִים כִּי בְּיוֹם אֲכָלְכֶם מִמֶּנּוּ וְנִפְקְחוּ עֵֽינֵיכֶם וִֽהְיִיתֶם כֵּֽאלֹהִים יֹֽדְעֵי טוֹב וָרָֽע׃
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Exodus 18:11 - elohim describes the other gods, not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob

עַתָּה יָדַעְתִּי כִּֽי־גָדוֹל יְהֹוָה מִכָּל־הָֽאֱלֹהִים כִּי בַדָּבָר אֲשֶׁר זָדוּ עֲלֵיהֶֽם׃
Now I know that the Lord is greater than all gods; for in the thing where they dealt proudly he was above them.
Exodus 20:3 - the first of the 10 commandments, the prohibition against worship of other gods

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עַל־פָּנָֽי׃
You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 23:13 - Elohim plural refers to "other gods", negative valence

וּבְכֹל אֲשֶׁר־אָמַרְתִּי אֲלֵיכֶם תִּשָּׁמֵרוּ וְשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים לֹא תַזְכִּירוּ לֹא יִשָּׁמַע עַל־פִּֽיךָ׃
And be mindful of all the things that I have said to you; and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard from your mouth.
Exodus 32:1 - The beginning of the Golden Calf episode, the assembly is asking Aaron to construct idols.

וַיַּרְא הָעָם כִּֽי־בֹשֵׁשׁ מֹשֶׁה לָרֶדֶת מִן־הָהָר וַיִּקָּהֵל הָעָם עַֽל־אַֽהֲרֹן וַיֹּֽאמְרוּ אֵלָיו קוּם עֲשֵׂה־לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר יֵֽלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ כִּי־זֶה מֹשֶׁה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶֽעֱלָנוּ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם לֹא יָדַעְנוּ מֶה־הָיָה לֽוֹ׃
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together to Aaron, and said to him, Arise, make us gods, which shall go before us; and as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what became of him.
Exodus 32:23 - Also part of the Golden Calf episode; Aaron is explaining that the assembly wanted idols.

וַיֹּאמְרוּ לִי עֲשֵׂה־לָנוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲשֶׁר יֵֽלְכוּ לְפָנֵינוּ כִּי־זֶה מֹשֶׁה הָאִישׁ אֲשֶׁר הֶֽעֱלָנוּ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם לֹא יָדַעְנוּ מֶה־הָיָה לֽוֹ׃
For they said to me, Make us gods, which shall go before us; and as for this Moses, the man who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what became of him.​

Deut 4:28 - Moses is talking about Elohim, plural, as idols

וַֽעֲבַדְתֶּם־שָׁם אֱלֹהִים מַֽעֲשֵׂה יְדֵי אָדָם עֵץ וָאֶבֶן אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יִרְאוּן וְלֹא יִשְׁמְעוּן וְלֹא יֹֽאכְלוּן וְלֹא יְרִיחֻֽן׃
And there you shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
Deut 5:7 - a restatement of the first of the 10 commandments, Elohim, plural, is used for other gods, not the God whom should be worshipped.

לֹא־יִֽהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עַל־פָּנָֽי׃
You shall have no other gods before me.
Deut 6:14 - Elohim, plural, refers to other gods of the surrounding nations

לֹא תֵֽלְכוּן אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים מֵֽאֱלֹהֵי הָֽעַמִּים אֲשֶׁר סְבִיבֽוֹתֵיכֶֽם׃
You shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people who are round about you;​

Deut 7:4 - Elohim plural refers to other gods which should not be followed

כִּֽי־יָסִיר אֶת־בִּנְךָ מֵֽאַֽחֲרַי וְעָֽבְדוּ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְחָרָה אַף־יְהֹוָה בָּכֶם וְהִשְׁמִֽידְךָ מַהֵֽר׃
For they will turn away your son from following me, that they may serve other gods; so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy you speedily.
Deut 8:19 - Elohim plural refers to other gods, following them results in perishing

וְהָיָה אִם־שָׁכֹחַ תִּשְׁכַּח אֶת־יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ וְהָֽלַכְתָּ אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבַדְתָּם וְהִשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתָ לָהֶם הַֽעִדֹתִי בָכֶם הַיּוֹם כִּי אָבֹד תֹּֽאבֵדֽוּן׃
And it shall be, if you do forget the Lord your God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I warn you solemnly this day that you shall surely perish.
Deut 10:17 - a distinction is made between the singular God of Moses and the other plural gods.

כִּי יְהֹוָה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם הוּא אֱלֹהֵי הָֽאֱלֹהִים וַֽאֲדֹנֵי הָֽאֲדֹנִים הָאֵל הַגָּדֹל הַגִּבֹּר וְהַנּוֹרָא אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יִשָּׂא פָנִים וְלֹא יִקַּח שֹֽׁחַד׃
For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God,mighty and awesome, which favors no person, nor takes bribes;
Deut 11:16 - Elohim plural refers to prohibited worship derived from self-delusion

הִשָּֽׁמְרוּ לָכֶם פֶּן־יִפְתֶּה לְבַבְכֶם וְסַרְתֶּם וַֽעֲבַדְתֶּם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וְהִשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתֶם לָהֶֽם׃
Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and you turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;
Deut 11:28 - serving Elohim, plural, results in a curse

וְהַקְּלָלָה אִם־לֹא תִשְׁמְעוּ אֶל־מִצְוֺת יְהֹוָה אֱלֹֽהֵיכֶם וְסַרְתֶּם מִן־הַדֶּרֶךְ אֲשֶׁר אָֽנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם הַיּוֹם לָלֶכֶת אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתֶּֽם׃
And a curse, if you will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which you have not known.
Deut 13:3 - following Elohim, plural, is a sign of a false prophet

וּבָא הָאוֹת וְהַמּוֹפֵת אֲשֶׁר־דִּבֶּר אֵלֶיךָ לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתָּם וְנָֽעָבְדֵֽם׃
And the sign or the wonder, comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them;
Deut 13:7 - Elohim, plural, are gods not known to the Israelite nation

כִּי יְסִֽיתְךָ אָחִיךָ בֶן־אִמֶּךָ אֽוֹ־בִנְךָ אֽוֹ־בִתְּךָ אוֹ אֵשֶׁת חֵיקֶךָ אוֹ רֵֽעֲךָ אֲשֶׁר כְּנַפְשְׁךָ בַּסֵּתֶר לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה וְנַֽעַבְדָה אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹא יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶֽיךָ׃
If your brother, the son of your mother, or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your bosom, or your friend, which is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known, you, nor your fathers;
Deut 13:14 - wicked people promote Elohim, plural

יָֽצְאוּ אֲנָשִׁים בְּנֵֽי־בְלִיַּעַל מִקִּרְבֶּךָ וַיַּדִּיחוּ אֶת־יֹֽשְׁבֵי עִירָם לֵאמֹר נֵֽלְכָה וְנַֽעַבְדָה אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יְדַעְתֶּֽם׃
Certain men, wicked persons, have gone out from among you, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you have not known;
Deut 18:20 - a prophet who promotes Elohim, plural, shall be killed

אַךְ הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר יָזִיד לְדַבֵּר דָּבָר בִּשְׁמִי אֵת אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־צִוִּיתִיו לְדַבֵּר וַֽאֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר בְּשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וּמֵת הַנָּבִיא הַהֽוּא׃
But the prophet, who shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
Deut 28:14 - following Elohim, plural, is not the correct path

וְלֹא תָסוּר מִכָּל־הַדְּבָרִים אֲשֶׁר אָֽנֹכִי מְצַוֶּה אֶתְכֶם הַיּוֹם יָמִין וּשְׂמֹאול לָלֶכֶת אַֽחֲרֵי אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים לְעָבְדָֽם׃
And you shall not go aside from any of the words which I command you this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Deut 28:36 - Elohim, plural, refers to idol worship

יוֹלֵךְ יְהֹוָה אֹֽתְךָ וְאֶֽת־מַלְכְּךָ אֲשֶׁר תָּקִים עָלֶיךָ אֶל־גּוֹי אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶיךָ וְעָבַדְתָּ שָּׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים עֵץ וָאָֽבֶן׃
The Lord shall bring you, and your king which you shall set over you, to a nation which neither you nor your fathers have known; and there shall you serve other gods, of wood and stone.​

Deut 28:64 - same as above, Elohim, plural, refers to idol worship

וֶֽהֱפִֽיצְךָ יְהֹוָה בְּכָל־הָעַמִּים מִקְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעַד־קְצֵה הָאָרֶץ וְעָבַדְתָּ שָּׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים אֲשֶׁר לֹֽא־יָדַעְתָּ אַתָּה וַֽאֲבֹתֶיךָ עֵץ וָאָֽבֶן׃
And the Lord shall scatter you among all people, from one end of the earth to the other; and there you shall serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, of wood and stone.
Deut 30:17 - serving Elohim, plural, is being drawn away

וְאִם־יִפְנֶה לְבָֽבְךָ וְלֹא תִשְׁמָע וְנִדַּחְתָּ וְהִֽשְׁתַּֽחֲוִיתָ לֵֽאלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבַדְתָּֽם׃
But if your heart turns away, so that you will not hear, but shall be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;​

Deut 31:18 - God turns away from those who follow Elohim, plural

וְאָֽנֹכִי הַסְתֵּר אַסְתִּיר פָּנַי בַּיּוֹם הַהוּא עַל כָּל־הָֽרָעָה אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה כִּי פָנָה אֶל־אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִֽים׃
And I will surely hide my face in that day because of all the evils which they shall have done, in that they are turned to other gods.
Deut 31:20 - Turning to Elohim, plural, is provoking God and breaking the covenant

כִּֽי־אֲבִיאֶנּוּ אֶל־הָֽאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר־נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי לַֽאֲבֹתָיו זָבַת חָלָב וּדְבַשׁ וְאָכַל וְשָׂבַע וְדָשֵׁן וּפָנָה אֶל־אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים וַֽעֲבָדוּם וְנִאֲצוּנִי וְהֵפֵר אֶת־בְּרִיתִֽי׃
For when I shall have brought them into the land which I swore to their fathers, that flows with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and become fat; then will they turn to other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
Deut 32:17 - Elohim, plural, are equated to powerless spirits

יִזְבְּחוּ לַשֵּׁדִים לֹא אֱלֹהַּ אֱלֹהִים לֹא יְדָעוּם חֲדָשִׁים מִקָּרֹב בָּאוּ לֹא שְׂעָרוּם אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶֽם׃
They sacrificed to powerless spirits, not to God; to gods whom they knew not; to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Here is a list from The Torah where Elohim is determined to be plural. Note they all connote negative / prohibited activities.

Right. In the Zohar, Elohim is related directly to Gevurah (Judgment). But what are you implying by noting that this name is related to prohibited activities; particularly in relationship to the trinity or Jewish monotheistic prejudice?



John
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Right. In the Zohar, Elohim is related directly to Gevurah (Judgment). But what are you implying by noting that this name is related to prohibited activities; particularly in relationship to the trinity or Jewish monotheistic prejudice?



John
When the name is plural it connotes idol worship.
 
Top