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Featured Christianity from Judaism?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Eddi, Oct 7, 2021.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    This is in Q&A so is intended only for Jews!

    I have five questions:

    1) I've heard of what is often called the "Judaeo-Christian tradition" but is there really such a thing? If so, to what extent? I know Christians talk about this, but what about Jews? - basically, is the notion a Christian one, with nothing to do with Judaism?

    Because that's the impression I've got :D

    Also, according to your beliefs/understanding:

    2) Did Christianity develop out of Judaism?

    3) Or is it a distinct pagan/gentile tradition with no links to Judaism?

    4) Or is it somewhat developed out of Judaism and somewhat a pagan/gentile tradition?

    5) In the days before Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire what was the relationship between the early Christians and the Jews like? I assume the Christians were trying to convert Jews?
     
  2. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    Jesus was a Jew, so.....
     
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  3. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    I know, but I'm interested to hear a Jewish perspective on the matter :)
     
  4. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    Perhaps @Rival may be able to offer some insight re: the questions in the OP?
     
  5. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    You said this is for Jews lol.
     
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  6. Orbit

    Orbit I'm a planet

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    I somehow didn't see that. Sorry!
     
  7. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    I know!

    But you are knowledgeable! :D
     
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  8. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    I think it is a Christian notion albeit well-intentioned. It appears many Christians think Jewish and Christian ethics, moral outlook etc. are the same or broadly the same, when they are, in truth, very different. Christianity has been inspired, for lack of a better word, by certain Jewish practices; but overall I think the term is nigh meaningless and I've never heard a Jewish person use the phrase.

    No, It developed out of a small cult following made up of Jews after their teacher, whom they believed to the the messiah, died. I don't believe this would have been a natural progression under any circumstance and only happened upon the death of their messiah claimant, when the message was spread to non-Jews. It quickly became Hellenised due to influences from already Hellenised Jews such as Paul, as well as the converts he made from around the Roman Empire. I would consider Christianity more Hellenic-ly developed than Jewishly, as at its core it has a man-as-God figure, a magical ritual (Eucharist), a virgin birth (albeit Paul himself never mentions this), the logos concept (wholly Greek), as well as quoting from passages of books of the Apocrypha that Jews don't consider scripture. In this way, I'd consider Christianity a development of Hellenic thought, filtred through whatever Jesus' teachings were, Pauline understanding of the Torah (which I think is very bad and not at all Pharisaic/Orthodox), and various oral traditions about Jesus that were floating around.

    I wouldn't consider it Pagan in the sense of not worshipping the Israelite God, but I would consider it non-Jewish in its philosophy, theology, ritual, and, well, basically everything else. It has links to Jewish scripture, which they also view as holy, but it adds to it non-Jewish thought and interpretation.

    I think it would be good to note here that I'm talking about the Christianity that became Orthodox/Catholic - James' Christianity, the Jerusalem Church, was Torah observant, but died very quickly as it was subsumed into Pauline Christianity. I would argue that the Jerusalem Church was clearly developing from Judaism but was nipped in the bud.

    More a non-Jewish tradition building on a Jewish framework - a Jewish framework as taught by a heretic or even sorcerer, and a suspect apparent Pharisee. Not a good foundation.

    I think conversion efforts were mostly centred around non-Jews living in Greece and Rome. There were easy converts to be made of women, slaves and outcasts.
     
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  9. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    Could you please elaborate on this? :)
     
  10. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Undoubtedly, some of Christian theology was taken from Judaism. Much of it was twisted. But there are also aspects of Christian theology that are unique to it.
    I'm not sure how this question is different from no. 1...
    It's certainly distinct with many pagan and non-Jewish aspects to it, but as I said, some of it does come from Judaism.
    It is not known what the relationship was during the years before the destruction of the Temple. By a couple of decades later, the Jews had concluded that Christianity was a dangerous theology, and placed before the Jewish Christians an ultimatum: Renounce Christianity or leave the Jewish communities. It seems that most chose the latter option. From this point on we have some records of encounters between Jewish sages and Christians, typically debating certain theological matters.
     
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  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It's actually more complicated than simply choosing Judaism or paganism as the root of Christianity. The first believers in Jesus were all Jews who continued in Judaism; IOW the earliest Chrstianity was simply a heretical Jewish sect. But as time went on, Paul brought in so many gentiles that they came to dominate the movement, and brought with them their pagan mindset. Thus the myths of the virgin birth, etc. were added from these pagan sources. The idea that God would manifest as a man is definitely from paganism, not Judaism. Nevertheless, it would simply be mistaken if the foundation of Judaism were not acknowledged.j

    As to what the relationship between Judaism and Christianity was like before Christianity became the national religion of the Roman Empire, I think that by the time the second century hit, it was highly antagonistic. The church fathers of that era had completely lost touch with the Judaism of the first believers, and instead chose to deliberately do things differently from Jews simply for the sake of doing things differently from Jews, such as not keeping the seventh day Sabbath. The Quartodeciman debate is from this time. You had the famous debates between Justin Martyr and Trypho. I would say there was a kind of war for converts going on.
     
    #11 IndigoChild5559, Oct 7, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2021
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  12. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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  13. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    Not really. It's a large topic and I'm too tired. You may want to make a thread on it, but ideas that come to mind are:

    - Jewish vs. Christian understandings of the Garden of Eden event and what that means for the future of human beings.

    - How one is forgiven/makes atonement.

    - Jewish vs. Christian interpretations of various so-called moral laws in the Torah. For example, Jesus apparently making all foods clean and declaring that it's not really about food, or Paul's take that God doesn't care about oxen when he quotes Devarim (Deut) 25:4, and states it's actually about paying tithes to the elders/church, and implying that God doesn't really care about oxen.

    - There's not really such a thing as 'Christian law' whereas Halacha is a thing.
     
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  14. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying

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    Fair enough! :D

    But you've given me enough info to look into this further so thanks!
     
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  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. In the common parlance, ideas which are sourced in the Jewish biblical texts and tradition and which aren't dismissed by Christianity as obviated or obsolesced through Jesus's teachings, are then attributed to both religions under that title. But Jews look at it as wrong and not a valid title.
    There are many stories about the origin of Christianity, from its potential identity as a sect of Judaism to its devloping as an independent entity, possibly by Jews and non-Jews. The Christian texts do seem to paint it as starting among nominal Jews and therefore being an expression of their extant religious identity, but some of the nitty gritty seems so foreign to Jews and Judaism that the stories seem unbelievable.
    "Links" could refer to anything from "a slightly different offshoot" to "believed in by a single adherent."
    "Somewhat" is similarly ill-defined. I can show stories that present original Christianity as a carbon copy of temple era Judaism, practiced by informed Jews, and stories that show it as a bastardized extension taught by ignoramuses.
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    As a wild olive branch grafted in jew :)

    1) They both believe in the Ten Commandments - with slight nuances
    2) Yes
    3) no - generally speaking. Obviously there are times when they did include pagan tradition just as Israel included pagan traditions when they served Ashtaroth (Judges 2). But basically, no
    4) no
    5) Basically there was a good relationship. In my understanding, when "Christians Jews" believed the prophecy that the walls of Jerusalem were going to be destroyed, they left Jerusalem and the non-Christian Jews stayed to protect the city. I believe the "divide" began when this happened. It was further cemented when more and more Jews were believing in Jesus Christ and eventually it was declared heretical.

    However be it as it may, Christianity did in fact have ups and downs much like the history of the Jewish nation--interlacing pagan rites and traditions of men in violation of the Word of Life. But, thankfully as with Israel, there was always a remnant that held the baton of faith.
     
  17. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    We are talking about dreams of Moses and Saul, aren't we ?

    Both sets of dreams came from their imaginations, based on inspiration.

    I think almost all religions are based on some imaginary form,

    like the spirits wafting about, all the time ....imagination ?
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Here are my answers:

    no
    It took one aspect of Judaism ( belief in a Messianic figure ) and corrupted it. Also it minimized the commandments.
    It has elements of the other world religions including the Egyptian pursuit of eternal life and god-like status. However, I think it really depends on the Christian and how literally they read Christian scripture.
    I'd call it different religion with different values and goals.
    I don't know, tbh.
     
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  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    He wasn't preaching Judaism. His lineage to me seems irrelevant considering the book of John ( Chapter 8 ) calls Jewish people children of the devil doing the devil's work.

    John 8:44
     
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  20. PearlSeeker

    PearlSeeker Well-Known Member

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    Why do you think they were heretical?
     
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